Moog lays off production staff.

[RABid]

Ashville Citizen Times article.

[Docbop]

Has the smell of a investment corporation taking over.    These people get paid too much dump them, we'll keep these people until we probe their brains.   Then fire them and send everything overseas.   

[RABid]

They have laid off the manufacturing staff. I wonder how many people they kept for repair work? I've been critical of Moog quality over the years, but I keep buying because they were made in the USA. Starting with a MiniMoog around 1979 and ending with a DFAM. Even had two Voyagers at once, Fire Red and Ice Blue. They are going to have to be really competitive in pricing for me to buy another.

[JamPro]

Gee: I've been gassing for a Voyager for a long time.

 

Rabid - did you have a bad experience with your Voyager?

[RABid]

1 hour ago, JamPro said:

Rabid - did you have a bad experience with your Voyager?

One was fine. The other was from a run with a batch of cards with a high failure rate. I never had a problem with it, and thus never had it replaced. That made it really hard to sell. 

[RABid]

Something I noticed in the articles I read, they increased their staff by 50 percent to increase production. When InMusic bought them they immediately started layoffs, ending with a batch of 30 to do away with production. 

[Baldwin Funster]

They would have been better off getting bought by.......

BEHRINGER !!!.....

[RABid]

I actually wonder if this move will damage Moog loyalty and drive some customers to Behringer? I know that I am more likely to buy the Edge and Spice when they hit the market.

[Nathanael_I]

Distressed companies are purchased by those willing to make the changes previous management was not.  As discussed in the other thread, domestic electronics manufacturing is not a thing. Tariff policy is designed to send it overseas. The alternative would have been liquidation.  So, you either let the acquirer save what’s left, or you let it go up in flames. The angst about overseas vs US is understandable, but it won’t change government policy.  
 

it’s been obvious for a while that something had to give there. Unless you believe in magic, there’s no way Moog could suspend gravity in a way Dave Smith couldn’t. 

[ProfD]

43 minutes ago, Nathanael_I said:

it’s been obvious for a while that something had to give there. Unless you believe in magic, there’s no way Moog could suspend gravity in a way Dave Smith couldn’t. 

That's an excellent point. 

 

Even Dave Smith saw the handwriting on the wall and cashed out. Hower, he was able to work out an arrangement with his buyer.

 

On this last rodeo, Moog Music didn't have their founder at the helm to insure a peaceful transition of power. Just management and the board I suppose.😎

[Tusker]

7 hours ago, Nathanael_I said:

As discussed in the other thread, domestic electronics manufacturing is not a thing. Tariff policy is designed to send it overseas. The alternative would have been liquidation.  So, you either let the acquirer save what’s left, or you let it go up in flames. The angst about overseas vs US is understandable, but it won’t change government policy.  

i am deeply interested in your point about tariff policy and domestic electronic manufacturing. Could you please enlarge on it or direct me to the other thread?

 

I know of a labor cost arbitrage problem leading to general de-industrialization. It seems you are referring to something related but different. Also, I am trying to gain perspective on the prospects for electronic assembly in the US if you can speak to that issue.

 

My apologies if this is an inappropriate question.

[Jose EB5AGV]

Just yesterday, while storing the original box which came with my second hand AKAI EWI Solo, I noticed it was also an InMusic brand (for sure all of you knew that, but I was not aware 😅)

 

They seem to be everywhere and non stopping with new acquisitions 🤔

[Mark Schmieder]

I think Akai was the first InMusic brand, then Alesis, and it went on from there.

[The Real MC]

InMusic is a corporate leech. They acquire companies with developed products that are proven revenue generators. After acquisition they cease any firmware/product development and milk maximum profit from the established product line. This includes moving production to low labor cost countries and using cheaper inferior components.  They are only interested in profit not innovation.

 

InMusic had been silent since they acquired Moog in June. The recent dismissal of production team is a sign of things to come and it will get worse. I have seen that too many times which has led me to have zero faith in InMusic.

[RABid]

Been a lot of controversy in Akai circles. A lot of old schoolers complain that the DA and AD converters in new gear don't sound as good as old gear. My complaint is the way they handle sales of their sample collections and software.

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, The Real MC said:

InMusic is a corporate leech. They acquire companies with developed products that are proven revenue generators. After acquisition they cease any firmware/product development and milk maximum profit from the established product line. This includes moving production to low labor cost countries and using cheaper inferior components.  They are only interested in profit not innovation.

 

InMusic had been silent since they acquired Moog in June. The recent dismissal of production team is a sign of things to come and it will get worse. I have seen that too many times which has led me to have zero faith in InMusic.

 

Probably be like you see a lot in the guitar world where an old established brand gets brought up, their technology gets raided to be licensed to others and slowly over next few years they turn into just a product name that gets bought and sold over and over.   

[Nathanael_I]

14 hours ago, Tusker said:

i am deeply interested in your point about tariff policy and domestic electronic manufacturing. Could you please enlarge on it or direct me to the other thread?

 

I know of a labor cost arbitrage problem leading to general de-industrialization. It seems you are referring to something related but different. Also, I am trying to gain perspective on the prospects for electronic assembly in the US if you can speak to that issue.

 

My apologies if this is an inappropriate question.

Nothing inappropriate at all!  In the US, we have tariffs on a number of semiconductors and the companies that make them. But not on finished goods that come in via trade agreements. This means that if I bring in components I pay extra - 20%, 30% or more than a different company that buys the parts overseas and only brings a complete assembly into the US. This is why you see US design, overseas board manufacturer and domestic final assembly and test. Or just import of finished goods.   As always, the details matter. Different industries and products hit the tariffs or don’t.,or only partly. This is why companies have highly experienced supply chain people to sort the cost and feasibility.   No single entrepreneur or company can just decide to flaunt industrial policy - their products will be more expensive, and perhaps unsustainably so. 
 

my Osmose was made in China, not France. It’s not just a US issue.  It’s complicated and gets straight into international politics…

[RABid]

Well, I broke over and bought the Behringer version of DFAM, I think. I already have a Moog DFAM and was debating on buying the rest of the set used or switch to Behringer version. While browsing Amazon for all things, cookie cutters, The Edge popped up in other options. I clicked on it and was able to pre-order for ... get this ... $117. Crazy price. I jumped and my pre-order is confirmed. Hoping they don't cancel. That was last night. This morning the offer is gone and Edge is listed as out of stock and it cannot be ordered. Sometimes the Amazon price bot does the craziest things, and I am not above taking advantage.

[SMcD]

I wasn't alive yet when Hammond shut down tonewheel production, but I wonder if it felt anything like this.

It's the end of an era that never should've ended.

[analogika]

3 hours ago, SMcD said:

I wasn't alive yet when Hammond shut down tonewheel production, but I wonder if it felt anything like this.

It's the end of an era that never should've ended.

This is the third time Moog has been sold, and there was a fifteen-year hiatus after the second time where the company didn’t exist at all. 
 

The early/mid-80s were the real end of the era, when the veterans Sequential, Moog, and ARP all bit the dust. 
 

It still feels weird, though. Moog in its first and its latest incarnation was (re-)founded by Dr. Robert Moog himself. If it ever comes back after/if InMusic kills it, it won’t be “his” company. 

[ProfD]

3 hours ago, SMcD said:

I wasn't alive yet when Hammond shut down tonewheel production, but I wonder if it felt anything like this.

It's the end of an era that never should've ended.

Hammond switched over from tonewheel to ICs (Integrated Circuits) back in 1975.   

 

About 2 million Hammond organs were produced overall. 

 

The Hammond organ was originally marketed to churches. 

 

It's safe to assume that 1) every church that wanted an organ got one and 2) there were enough tonewheel organs still floating around to satisfy would be buyers.

 

24 minutes ago, analogika said:

This is the third time Moog has been sold, and there was a fifteen-year hiatus after the second time where the company didn’t exist at all. 
 

The early/mid-80s were the real end of the era, when the veterans Sequential, Moog, and ARP all bit the dust. 

 

Great point.  Many of us around here are old enough to remember when analog synths fell out of favor before the analog resurgence of the 2000s.😎

[RABid]

I never owned an early Sequential Circuits product but the Prophet 5 was at the top of my "wish I had bought it" list. Did buy 6 DSI products on rebirth. The T8 and Prophet 10 were bigger and more expensive. The public wanted lighter and cheaper.

 

Always wanted an Odyssey but I did buy a Rhodes Chroma. Arp developed the Chroma and built the prototype. Rhodes released it and did not do a bad job with marketing. I remember the Keyboard Play adds and the press about who was using it. The problem was a public that did not want to pay $4800 for a keyboard with one slider and a bunch of membrane switches.

 

Unlike the steady Chroma, the new owners of Moog pushed the Memory Moog out the door before it was ready. Media had a lot of articles on the Memory Moog problems and Bob Moog was quoted as saying it needed a few more months of research.

 

Then it really hit the fan. Yamaha released the DX7 and Roland released the Juno. Rhodes released the Polaris in an attempt to compete with cheaper, lighter keyboards but it was too little too late. Same for Oberheim and the Matrix 6. While the Sequential Drum Trax was nice, the Six Trak was awful. Roland had their own disasters with the TB-303 but they sold enough Juno's to keep going.

[GovernorSilver]

I wonder if keiretsu is what has allowed the Japanese instrument makers  (Akai kind of being an exception, as a property of InMusic) to outlive their major US-based competitors (Moog, Emu, Ensoniq, etc.), as well as stay competitive against Uli and his minions.  

 

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/k/keiretsu.asp

[Docbop]

I'd say Akai moving heavy into the Beat making world has kept if current and making money. The MPC is a real popular tool 

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, GovernorSilver said:

I wonder if keiretsu is what has allowed the Japanese instrument makers  (Akai kind of being an exception, as a property of InMusic) to outlive their major US-based competitors (Moog, Emu, Ensoniq, etc.), as well as stay competitive against Uli and his minions.

Keiretsu in addition to the teachings of Dr. Edward Deming could have played a key role in Japanese manufacturing and vertical integration.

 

Otherwise, as mentioned, the big 3 KB manufacturers each released a KB product that put electromechanical KBs and analog synths out to pasture for a couple decades and took musicians by storm.😎

[GovernorSilver]

Yup, it's the big 3 KB manufacturers in Japan I was thinking of.

 

Akai didn't quite make it in that way, with Akai Electric Company ending up under the control of Akai Holdings then HK-based Grande Holdings, founded by (then?) chairman James Ting, who was later imprisoned for false accounting.... then somehow Akai Professional was spun off and bought by a US concern which then went bankrupt... and THEN InMusic bought Akai Pro.  Whew!

[analogika]

7 hours ago, ProfD said:

Keiretsu in addition to the teachings of Dr. Edward Deming could have played a key role in Japanese manufacturing and vertical integration.

 

Otherwise, as mentioned, the big 3 KB manufacturers each released a KB product that put electromechanical KBs and analog synths out to pasture for a couple decades and took musicians by storm.😎

Korg actually sold itself to Yamaha the year before the M1 came out and did that. However, the terms were extremely amicable, and five years later, Korg was able to buy back its shares and go independent again. 

[Tusker]

9 hours ago, ProfD said:

Keiretsu in addition to the teachings of Dr. Edward Deming could have played a key role in Japanese manufacturing and vertical integration.

 

Otherwise, as mentioned, the big 3 KB manufacturers each released a KB product that put electromechanical KBs and analog synths out to pasture for a couple decades and took musicians by storm.😎

 

I think the keiretsu relationships prevented the atomization of business at a time we in the US put away our portfolio management philosophy and got busy doing spin-offs and bustup acquisitions. So yes there is occasional cross-subsidization between business units in the Japanese system. The business of business is not merely business.

 

 

[Spider76]

5 hours ago, analogika said:

Korg actually sold itself to Yamaha 

Yep.

Thanks to its long successful history and vast product portfolio, people tend to forget that Korg is not that big at all. From its own web page, it declares about 300 employees.

Roland and Behringer (both around 3000 according to wikipedia) are 10 times bigger.

Casio (10'000 employees) is bigger than Roland, Behringer and Korg put together, although musical instruments is only a part of its immense business.

And then of course there's Yamaha (almost 30'000 people) which is an order of magnitude bigger than anyone else.

 

But if we want to talk about "Japan's Big3", that would be Yamaha, Casio and Roland.

[ProfD]

54 minutes ago, Spider76 said:

But if we want to talk about "Japan's Big3", that would be Yamaha, Casio and Roland.

In KB speak, we use "big 3" to denote the most popular MI manufacturers (Yamaha, Roland and Korg) of pro-level KB gear. 😎