Boards that integrate IOS devices

[Paul Woodward]

Sorry to start a new topic, but couldn’t see where else to ask.

I had a Yamaha YC61, loved the sounds but didn’t really get on with the keybed, and it was a lot of money for what I needed (and just sitting around) so I sold it on.  

What I loved about it however, was its IOS integration. Connecting an iPad or iPhone essentially added all new sound engines to the board as they integrated (audio and midi) through just one USB cable. Genius. Cuts down on cables and the need for a mixer. Worked perfectly. 

Still have an iPad with all the sounds on it set up so I was wondering what other boards (other than the YC73/88 and the CP73/88) offer this feature. I know the CK61 has this feature, but it just Yamaha boards?

Ideally just 61 key as a top board which limits the choice further I guess. 

 

 

Thanks

[CyberGene]

Numa X piano line but there’s no 61-key option. 

[Kawai James]

It's not 61 keys, but how about the Yamaha P-121 (73 keys)?

 

Cheers,

James

x

[stoken6]

Montage, MODX(+)

Not sure about the Roland range.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[octa]

no internal sounds but iRig Keys I/O 25 has been nice and handy to me in this respect lately. Wouldn’t mind having 49 keys version too. 

[Paul Woodward]

Cheers guys, I have a Korg Grandstage which has great pianos (lots of decent sounds to be fair) and this would be a smaller top board hence I am avoiding another piano etc. I could push for a 73/76 if it were a dealbreaker, but its just more weight/bulk to carry. It never appealed to me, but the CK61 is ticking a few boxes. I just fear it will be a disappointment after the (sounds of) the YC61 and its still around £800.

Shoot me down, but the Roland VR-09 is perfect for my needs in most other respects. I can even 'integrate' the iPad through its USB and audio line in, but its more cables and likely to produce additional noise through a loop.

I know there are numerous ways around these, but Im looking at compact, tidy and easy. The Yamaha really was ideal, just need something less expensive for a second board. How far does this IOS feature go back on Yamaha boards? Maybe one of those would be the answer or just bite the bullet with the VR and/or get a bigger mixer.

 

I am assuming its something like a MODX where they introduced this feature as standard?

[AnotherScott]

Funny that your knock on the YC61 is the action, but the VR09 would suit you if it had the interface, since one of the bigger criticisms on the VR09 is the action! But they do have different "flaws." Personally, I'd prefer the YC61 action for pianos, but the VR09 action for organ (regardless of the YC's waterfall shape).

 

Anyway, to the question at hand of which boards carry USB audio from an iPad...

 

No Rolands. (Their boards that do audio over USB require custom drivers, and it's not possible to install custom drivers under iOS.) Also afaik, no Kawai, Hammond, Casio, or Nord. {Updated below, apparently there are Roland piano models that can do this.}

 

I believe all Dexibells, do... they don't make a 61, but the S1 is a light 68. S10L and the recently discontinued J7 are non-hammer 76 possibilities.

 

Kurzweil K2700, but again, no 61. 

 

Yamaha has, as you mentioned, the CK, YC, and CP series, and as James mentioned, P-121 (also the 88-key P-125, but not its replacement P-125A), and as Mike mentioned, the MODX/Montage series. Also the MX, MOXF, and I think PSR-SX600 (but not the higher end arrangers!), and some of their even lower end arrangers as well (at least PSR-E463, E473, E373, 76-key EW-425 and EW-310).

 

Numa Compact 2/2X are 88 keys, but very light (and then there are also their hammer action 73 and 88 Numa X models).

 

Korg Nautilus and Kronos, Kross (v.2), possibly some others? The 88-key XE20 does it in a limited way... it works, but you can't play an internal and an external sound at the same time unless you layer them. The only way to play an external sound by itself is to go into the menus to set Local Off; otherwise any external sound you play will always be layered with an internal sound. Though I only happen to know that from personal experience. I can't assure you that some of the others I mentioned don't have any non-obvious limitations of their own. And even on the XE20, it's not really a limitation of their USB interface implementation, it's a limitation of the board's other MIDI and sound assignment capabilities. (ETA: Liano is similar.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cphollis]

I think a good keyboard that fully exploits iOS integration has yet to be built.

[Paul Woodward]

42 minutes ago, cphollis said:

I think a good keyboard that fully exploits iOS integration has yet to be built.

The YC did it perfectly for me @cphollis, it was just a very expensive board for what I needed (and I wasn't gigging it either, so it spent a lot of time in its case). I don’t want any sort of DAW functionality, just to use the ipad as a sound module with minimum wiring with sets that change with those on the YC. It did all that.

[kenheeter]

I really like the Numa X for ipad integration or any external midi integration.  Very slick interface.

 

[Paul Woodward]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Funny that your knock on the YC61 is the action, but the VR09 would suit you if it had the interface, since one of the bigger criticisms on the VR09 is the action! But they do have different "flaws." Personally, I'd prefer the YC61 action for pianos, but the VR09 action for organ (regardless of the YC's waterfall shape).

 

Anyway, to the question at hand of which boards carry USB audio from an iPad...

 

No Rolands. (Their boards that do audio over USB require custom drivers, and it's not possible to install custom drivers under iOS.) Also afaik, no Kawai, Hammond, Casio, or Nord.

 

Korg Nautilus and Kronos, Kross (v.2), possibly some others? The 88-key XE20 does it in a limited way... it works, but you can't play an internal and an external sound at the same time unless you layer them. The only way to play an external sound by itself is to go into the menus to set Local Off; otherwise any external sound you play will always be layered with an internal sound. Though I only happen to know that from personal experience. I can't assure you that some of the others I mentioned don't have any non-obvious limitations of their own. And even on the XE20, it's not really a limitation of their USB interface implementation, it's a limitation of the board's other MIDI and sound assignment capabilities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The VR board is not great at all but I paid very little for one and the YC was almost 5x as much. Lots of issues with the YC action (weirdly sluggish and become very noisy, cheap multipart moulding with integrated hinges). The high trigger point of the VR made playing fast solos and organ parts more enjoyable. VA synth engine was pretty good when opened up with the app.

If I had a Korg Nautilus/Kronos level board, the iPad would be pretty pointless as a sound module to be fair. Yes, some great Moogs and more, but I generally used Korg Module and those sounds are nowhere near Kronos quality.

 

Of the ones listed, CK ticks some boxes and, possibly an older MX if they actually integrate IOS in the same way.

I can get a refurb CK for £650 and a VR09 is currently running at around £500 so wondering if its worth getting such an old board for the sake of £150

[cphollis]

My challenge is that you can get either

a) an iOS application with a plasticky bedroom controller, or

c) a decently performing keyboard with an iOS device attached.

 

What I would like is a decently performing keyboard built around a performance-centric iOS hosting app, much like AUM.

[Ibarch]

35 minutes ago, cphollis said:

My challenge is that you can get either

a) an iOS application with a plasticky bedroom controller, or

c) a decently performing keyboard with an iOS device attached.

 

What I would like is a decently performing keyboard built around a performance-centric iOS hosting app, much like AUM.

I doubt you will ever see that unless Apple decide to sell the keyboard. 

The risk of a hardware product being rendered useless by an iOS update is just too great.

 

I'm not talking about bugs but deliberate changes to the core APIs and services that Apple make all the time. The changes in iOS to memory management, multi threading, permissions to bluetooth and network stacks etc etc have ruined many an app and forced developers into rewrites and in some case abandonment of their apps. A simple change could cripple the performance of a keyboard or remove chunks of functionality overnight. Apple won't care or reverse policy. They don't work with other manufactors or provide warning of incoming changes. They make a decision on a whim and your keyboard becomes a non functional slab of plastic. Game over. 

 

No company in their right mind would think this is a viable option whilst Apple (and Google too) maintain their iron grip on their OS. 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, cphollis said:

I think a good keyboard that fully exploits iOS integration has yet to be built.

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

The YC did it perfectly for me

One way the YC falls short for me in terms of external sound integration is that there are no front panel controls available to control the volumes of external zones. The closest thing is that you can define an expression pedal as volume for your external source, but besides the nuisance/expense of an extra pedal, it only controls the entirety of the external source. So if you have external sounds in two zones, you still can't alter the volume of one of those sounds without altering the volume of the other. The most viable solution for an iPad here is to use an app that gives you on-screen volume controls for all your sounds, and then hopefully your keyboard provides convenient solid placement for the iPad to make it easy to get to those adjustments when you want them. 

 

58 minutes ago, kenheeter said:

I really like the Numa X for ipad integration or any external midi integration.  Very slick interface.

The SL controllers looked very well designed for this, but the implementation they carried over to the X lags, not letting you name the zones for quick easy identification in use. The external zones seem to have only "generic" names available, losing the ability to name them using names more descriptive of their sound and source. I commented about this at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/180089-new-studiologic-numa-x-piano/page/24/#comment-2937076

 

 

For a board with sounds, the best I've found for integration of external MIDI sounds is MODX/Montage, as I also talked about some at that link.

[drawback]

You've been saying all along the CK61 ticks many boxes. It has no significant flaws, though I'd like to see a couple more AP/EP choices, perhaps in a future update if Yamaha sticks with it. 

[Jwave]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Kurzweil K2700 and PC4 series, but again, no 61. Closest (lightest) is the 76-key PC4-7

 

Minor nitpick: PC4 keyboards have MIDI-only USB.

[Paul Woodward]

4 minutes ago, drawback said:

You've been saying all along the CK61 ticks many boxes. It has no significant flaws, though I'd like to see a couple more AP/EP choices, perhaps in a future update if Yamaha sticks with it. 

Indeed, it sounds like one of those times when you have already talked yourself into it I guess. £650 refurbed or £750 new. Both from Yamaha with same guarantee. I hear lots of negatives about the organs and the sounds in general. Weird that the boxes it ticks are the IOS integration, audio ins and the three layers rather than the important things like keybed and sounds. No need for speakers and I do like a better build quality but I take your point.

[drawback]

I really like the keybed. It plays like a premium action controller, not overly springy and has a fair amount of travel – unlike the dismal attempt made at waterfall on the YC61. The CK61's action reminds me of the Kronos61 and is among the best I've played. Sound-wise, the Rhodes are very, very good once you tweak them a bit. Like I posted in another thread, you can do a lot with cutoff/resonance/attack/release knobs. I've been able to get some very good Rhodes, passable Wurlitzer, and the stock CF piano is easily warmed up. The rest (strings/reeds/clav/brass bla bla bla) are the usual Yamaha stuff. The reason I wanted USB Audio integration was to run B-3X, which I would do on ANY clonewheel other than probably the latest H/S models. 

 

Buy the new one.

[CHarrell]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

No Rolands. (Their boards that do audio over USB require custom drivers, and it's not possible to install custom drivers under iOS.) Also afaik, no Kawai, Hammond, Casio, or Nord.

 

Really? I've gone to stores with my iPad and plugged it into an FP30X using a USB cable, and it instantly transmitted MIDI and audio...didn't even know it was a feature until I plugged it in after turning the FP speakers off and couldn't figure out why I wasn't getting sound out of the iPad!

[RABid]

Roland has been releasing some products that will work with standard drivers, or will give expanded features using Roland drivers. For some of them, you have to dive into the menu system to select which driver type.

[Paul Woodward]

55 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

Really? I've gone to stores with my iPad and plugged it into an FP30X using a USB cable, and it instantly transmitted MIDI and audio...didn't even know it was a feature until I plugged it in after turning the FP speakers off and couldn't figure out why I wasn't getting sound out of the iPad!

Had no idea Roland did this. It must just be certain boards. Pretty sure the JDXi I just got doesnt bring audio in from an iPad. Im not even sure if it works with IOS devices even though it has built in audio USB interface.

 

[CHarrell]

Just now, Paul Woodward said:

Had no idea Roland did this. It must just be certain boards. Pretty sure the JDXi I just got doesnt bring audio in from an iPad. Im not even sure if it works with IOS devices even though it has built in audio USB interface.

 

 

The FP line has it, I believe RD88 has it too, don't know about the others out there.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, Jwave said:

Minor nitpick: PC4 keyboards have MIDI-only USB.

Fixed, thanks! (The "extra" USB feature they have is that they can act as USB hosts.)

 

1 hour ago, CHarrell said:

Really? I've gone to stores with my iPad and plugged it into an FP30X using a USB cable, and it instantly transmitted MIDI and audio...didn't even know it was a feature until I plugged it in after turning the FP speakers off and couldn't figure out why I wasn't getting sound out of the iPad!

Thanks for that info! I've never looked much into their piano models, I'm surprised that they do this when, for example, the Fantoms do not.

[ShadowMan]

I use an MX61 the same way - mainly as a rehearsal board. VERY light, decent action.  Mapped it to control B3X, Ravenscroft, Neo Soul and Korg Module via separate midi channels into AUM on my Ipad. Then the Ipad out goes  to mini-mixer into PA. Works great. 

 

And on the occasions where I don’t bring the Ipad, the internal sounds are more than adequate.

[ImproKeys]

Go with the CK61. It does all you need and some more. Its a grab and go board. Seems like a good price also. 

[Paul Woodward]

2 hours ago, ShadowMan said:

I use an MX61 the same way - mainly as a rehearsal board. VERY light, decent action.  Mapped it to control B3X, Ravenscroft, Neo Soul and Korg Module via separate midi channels into AUM on my Ipad. Then the Ipad out goes  to mini-mixer into PA. Works great. 

 

And on the occasions where I don’t bring the Ipad, the internal sounds are more than adequate.

Am I right in thinking it doesnt integrate the audio from the iPad into the MX though? I can see the MODX does and later boards, just didnt think the MX had that feature.

[kanefsky]

4 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

Am I right in thinking it doesnt integrate the audio from the iPad into the MX though? I can see the MODX does and later boards, just didnt think the MX had that feature.

 

[Paul Woodward]

Daft question maybe, but would that also include an iPad as I could find no mention of IOS compatibility, just ‘computer’. The latter might well need drivers the iPad doesnt have? Sometimes its just the little things you expect would work but strangely dont…

[kanefsky]

1 minute ago, Paul Woodward said:

Daft question maybe, but would that also include an iPad as I could find no mention of IOS compatibility, just ‘computer’. The latter might well need drivers the iPad doesnt have?

 

The magic words to look for are "class-compliant."  If a device supports class-compliant USB audio then it doesn't need special drivers for iOS, Mac, Windows, Linux, etc.

 

 

 

[Paul Woodward]

1 minute ago, kanefsky said:

 

The magic words to look for are "class-compliant."  If a device supports class-compliant USB audio then it doesn't need special drivers for iOS, Mac, Windows, Linux, etc.

 

 

 

Awesome, thanks 🙂 Looks like an MX might be worth a look if I spot one locally.