Have you gone from hardware stage keyboard to an iPad and controller setup for bread and butter piano/keyboard sounds? How did it go?

[CHarrell]

40 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

wo keyboards (main plus one with pitch bend/mod wheel and expression pedal input) and a small high-quality DAC (the little silver thing in the middle) connect to the USB ports of the hub along with a charging cable.  The hub then connects to the iPad.

 

The DAC is where the audio gets transmitted from the iPad to, is that correct? From there, how would you hook up that lil guy to say an amp or PA? Is that a lil 3.5mm jack I see there?

Is that a V-Piano, by the way?

[kanefsky]

1 minute ago, CHarrell said:

 

The DAC is where the audio gets transmitted from the iPad to, is that correct? From there, how would you hook up that lil guy to say an amp or PA? Is that a lil 3.5mm jack I see there?

 

Yes it's a 3.5mm stereo jack.  You can use the appropriate adapter cables to connect it to RCA inputs or whatever, but if you have professional monitors that use 1/4" or XLR inputs then it might make sense to use a different DAC with those kinds of outputs.  A Topping D10b might be a good choice.

 

 

1 minute ago, CHarrell said:

Is that a V-Piano, by the way?

 

Yep

 

[CHarrell]

2 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

Yes it's a 3.5mm stereo jack.  You can use the appropriate adapter cables to connect it to RCA inputs or whatever, but if you have professional monitors that use 1/4" or XLR inputs then it might make sense to use a different DAC with those kinds of outputs.  A Topping D10b might be a good choice.

 

Yeah, I'm wondering if it might just be easier for me to use something like the UMC I linked to before.

[kanefsky]

Just now, CHarrell said:

Yeah, I'm wondering if it might just be easier for me to use something like the UMC I linked to before.

 

The UMC has a bunch of extra stuff you're not going to use (or haven't mentioned any need for) like 5-pin MIDI ports, microphone preamps, phantom power, guitar inputs, etc.  You haven't said what kind of amps/speakers/headphones you're going to connect it to, which would make it easier to pick a good solution.  I also don't remember seeing (maybe I just missed it) whether this is something you want to be portable or if it will just sit at home in one spot.

 

[CHarrell]

20 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

Yep

 

Oh cool, I've heard so many stories about that one! 

[CHarrell]

6 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

 

The UMC has a bunch of extra stuff you're not going to use (or haven't mentioned any need for) like 5-pin MIDI ports, microphone preamps, phantom power, guitar inputs, etc.  You haven't said what kind of amps/speakers/headphones you're going to connect it to, which would make it easier to pick a good solution.  I also don't remember seeing (maybe I just missed it) whether this is something you want to be portable or if it will just sit at home in one spot.

 

 

For sure, I can clarify: I'd want this to be my live gigging rig, as opposed to carrying a larger, heavier, and potentially more expensive hardware board such as the CP88 (with all these extra dongles and kit I'd have to buy and carry, I'm starting to wonder how the price and weight math plays out here...) The audio from the iPad would either go through my Spacestation amp or whatever monitoring/amp deal is at a given space for rehearsals, etc.  

 

I'm starting to lose my head keeping track of all the bits I'd have to get and manage here, hence why I was thinking something like the UMC to avoid having to get another piece of kit for that.

[stoken6]

2 hours ago, CHarrell said:

Keyboard USB out, iPad USB, Minilab USB > USB hub > UMC > UMC audio out to external speakers

Kinda, sorta. You need the iPad on the “host” side of the hub and the keyboard, minilab and umc on the “device” side. Imagine the usb hub giving you three usb ports for your iPad (because that’s what it’s doing).

 

Cheers, Mike 

[kanefsky]

3 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

For sure, I can clarify: I'd want this to be my live gigging rig, as opposed to carrying a larger, heavier, and potentially more expensive hardware board such as the CP88 (with all these extra dongles and kit I'd have to buy and carry, I'm starting to wonder how the price and weight math plays out here...) The audio from the iPad would either go through my Spacestation amp or whatever monitoring/amp deal is at a given space for rehearsals, etc.  

 

I had a feeling you might be using it portably which is why the DACs I listed are as small and light as possible.  The UMC is about 40% larger than the Topping, for example, and many times larger than the little AudioEngine DAC I used in the picture.

 

Having said that, if I were gigging I'd probably want a single keyboard with everything built in.  I have a portable setup with a Roland FP10, a MacBook Air, and a small DAC that I use for travel (hotel rooms, etc.) but that's not quite the same thing since it's a much less stressful/critical situation and I'm monitoring with headphones rather than big monitors or a PA system.

 

[Baldwin Funster]

12 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

For sure, I can clarify: I'd want this to be my live gigging rig, as opposed to carrying a larger, heavier, and potentially more expensive hardware board such as the CP88 (with all these extra dongles and kit I'd have to buy and carry, I'm starting to wonder how the price and weight math plays out here...) The audio from the iPad would either go through my Spacestation amp or whatever monitoring/amp deal is at a given space for rehearsals, etc.  

 

I'm starting to lose my head keeping track of all the bits I'd have to get and manage here, hence why I was thinking something like the UMC to avoid having to get another piece of kit for that.

Coming into an iPad rig straight from hardware with gigs and rehearsals pending would be a hair pulling roller coaster ride if you ask me. I'd get an iPad and AUM first. Then get a camera kit and use the iPad head phone out and see if you can get that working before you go buying a bunch of sh!t that you don't really have a grasp of. You are going to find its easier than you think and you probably don't need what you think you need right now.

[CHarrell]

23 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

Coming into an iPad rig straight from hardware with gigs and rehearsals pending would be a hair pulling roller coaster ride if you ask me. I'd get an iPad and AUM first. Then get a camera kit and use the iPad head phone out and see if you can get that working before you go buying a bunch of sh!t that you don't really have a grasp of. You are going to find its easier than you think and you probably don't need what you think you need right now.

 

I haven't thought about using the iPad headphone out. My iPad doesn't seem to like just being used solo though, as I said before, and seems to be able to take more when connected to a USB audio interface. 

 

I was at a rehearsal a couple weeks before using an Alesis QS8 the guitarist hauled over, a Bluetooth MIDI adapter to connect the Alesis to the iPad, then hooked up the iPad to my UMC80whatever (way too big for practical live use but it's all I had on hand, hence why I'd consider a smaller one), then routed the audio from there into the rehearsal room's mixer board, which then was connected to a single Yamaha DXR or B or whatever.

 

It was a pretty painless setup overall, but the Alesis QS8 was more capable a controller than a theoretical Kawai ES for obvious reasons. So all this extra crap I don't have a grasp of is really just a dumbass, convoluted way to add functionality to a board controller that doesn't have it. I know building any kind of rig setup, no matter how simple or complex, is an exercise in weighing compromises, but I can't help but feel this is all a step too far to accomplish what I believe should be a simple solution. 

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, CHarrell said:

I haven't thought about using the iPad headphone out. My iPad doesn't seem to like just being used solo though, as I said before, and seems to be able to take more when connected to a USB audio interface.

 

Not sure what "take more" means but the headphone output is perfectly fine for gigging - imo of course.

 

I use the Apple CCK on my iPad 9G, just a USB connection to my controller and the power port to a charging cube or battery pack. There are cables that can go from the iPad's headphone out to two 1/4" plugs or even XLRs - I know because I use them on all my local gigs.

 

The less dangling dongles the better, imo. The current situation isn't that great but at least having the headphone out means I don't need an additional DAC anywhere. Those hubs with built-in audio jacks look OK, I just feel better going with the Apple CCK - I find my iPhones and iPad can sometimes not like 3rd-party cables or other attachments.

[CHarrell]

6 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Not sure what "take more" means but the headphone output is perfectly fine for gigging - imo of course.

 

It wasn't good wording, but I don't know how else to say it, that my (I assume weak) mini4 seems to overload its audio pretty easily when I just plug in my headphones to listen to the iPad while connected to a controller, but that happens nowhere near as often when it's connected to a USB audio interface. 

[kanefsky]

9 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

I use the Apple CCK on my iPad 9G, just a USB connection to my controller and the power port to a charging cube or battery pack. There are cables that can go from the iPad's headphone out to two 1/4" plugs or even XLRs - I know because I use them on all my local gigs.

 

The less dangling dongles the better, imo. The current situation isn't that great but at least having the headphone out means I don't need an additional DAC anywhere. Those hubs with built-in audio jacks look OK, I just feel better going with the Apple CCK - I find my iPhones and iPad can sometimes not like 3rd-party cables or other attachments.

 

The Apple CCK is needed when you use an older iPad with Lightning, since Lightning iPads can't act as a USB host by themselves (the CCK adds that capability).

 

With newer iPads that use USB-C you can use pretty much any off-the-shelf USB gear without any kind of CCK, but it's a good idea to look for one of the hubs or docking stations that has a USB-C power input that will supply power back to the host so that your iPad can be kept charged and be connected to other USB devices at the same time.

 

[Baldwin Funster]

50 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

It wasn't good wording, but I don't know how else to say it, that my (I assume weak) mini4 seems to overload its audio pretty easily when I just plug in my headphones to listen to the iPad while connected to a controller, but that happens nowhere near as often when it's connected to a USB audio interface. 

With a mini 4, I would suggest keeping the output volume on 60% or less. Use the gain from the next component in the chain to get the level higher. Even with a Gen 9 70% to 75% on the ipads overall volume is max I'd go.

[Reezekeys]

55 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

With newer iPads that use USB-C you can use pretty much any off-the-shelf USB gear without any kind of CCK, but it's a good idea to look for one of the hubs or docking stations that has a USB-C power input that will supply power back to the host so that your iPad can be kept charged and be connected to other USB devices at the same time.

 

You're absolutely right, and there are hubs made to be flush-fitting with the iPad which is an advantage as well. Lightning has definitely made life a little more difficult. I've tried a few 3rd-party accessories - a CCK clone and a few lightning extension cords - they've all given me problems. The CCK clone was junk and I returned it immediately - the cables, well they work sometimes. In the end I opted for the 9G iPad for it's affordability and the headphone jack. My wallet made the decision, I guess - although I must say my lowly 9G seems to have plenty of power to run my AUM music rig.

[kanefsky]

I like the hubs with a short cable because that lets me hide the hub and its attached cables behind the keyboard so that the iPad (or MacBook) looks nice and neat with just a single cable attached.

 

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, CHarrell said:

It wasn't good wording, but I don't know how else to say it, that my (I assume weak) mini4 seems to overload its audio pretty easily when I just plug in my headphones to listen to the iPad while connected to a controller, but that happens nowhere near as often when it's connected to a USB audio interface. 

 

That's a bit of a head-scratcher. Might it be you have low-impedance headphones that are straining the headphone amp in your Mini? You notice overload at any volume, or only when the volume is turned up?

 

I just checked and the Mini 4 uses the A8 chip. My old iPad Air 2 uses the A8X, which is one generation newer. I was able to run my full AUM setup, using the headphone jack, with no issues, however I had to bump my buffer up to 256 samples sometimes, and AUM's CPU meter was usually in the 60 - 70% range. With my new iPad 9G running the same setup, the CPU meter hardly ever goes above 25% at a 128 buffer.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

40 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

there are hubs made to be flush-fitting with the iPad which is an advantage as well

 

35 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

I like the hubs with a short cable because that lets me hide the hub and its attached cables behind the keyboard

 

The short cable helps hide things at home, but not so much at a gig, when people see the back of your rig. 🙂 But the issue with the flush-fitting stuff is that they may not work with a protective case on the iPad, and I don't know about trading off that extra bit of safety.

[MalH]

I used an ipad plus controller for a couple of years but have gone back to hardware due to latency:

 

[Reezekeys]

9 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

Even with a Gen 9 70% to 75% on the ipads overall volume is max I'd go

 

I leave my Gen 9 at max volume, no issues here. Maybe it's because I'm anal about monitoring levels in AUM, sometimes switching the meter display between the headphone out and the input to a master fader & efx bus I send everything to. I've also set the meter to display individual plugin channels' levels. AUM's meter is pretty flexible in that it can be set to show any channel's level as well as the levels coming straight out of a plugin, before it goes to an efx node or the channel fader. It takes some work, but my iPad's volume is maxxed and the audio is clean!

[Baldwin Funster]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I leave my Gen 9 at max volume, no issues here. Maybe it's because I'm anal about monitoring levels in AUM, sometimes switching the meter display between the headphone out and the input to a master fader & efx bus I send everything to. I've also set the meter to display individual plugin channels' levels. AUM's meter is pretty flexible in that it can be set to show any channel's level as well as the levels coming straight out of a plugin, before it goes to an efx node or the channel fader. It takes some work, but my iPad's volume is maxxed and the audio is clean!

I usually use B3x in standalone while running AUM in background audio.

B3x is so dynamic with the volume difference from 3 notes to 6 notes or 888 to full draw that I find it can get crunchy if I don't leave myself a margin of extra headroom.

[Reezekeys]

5 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

I usually use B3x in standalone while running AUM in background audio.

 

B3x doesn't run as an AUv3 or IAA? Or is there a reason why it's preferrable to run it standalone?

[Baldwin Funster]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

B3x doesn't run as an AUv3 or IAA? Or is there a reason why it's preferrable to run it standalone?

I had problems in the past with my older ipad,  though b3x seems to work in AUM with my new Ipad

at the moment. It's mostly habit these days. When I'm doing a blues gig or even a rock organ gig and B3 is all I'm going to play, I prefer B3x in standalone mode. Probably because if I need to jump back on the old iPad I'm not losing anything. 

I only need AUM right now for my soul RnB gig where I need horns and strings about half the time.

[CHarrell]

13 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

That's a bit of a head-scratcher. Might it be you have low-impedance headphones that are straining the headphone amp in your Mini? You notice overload at any volume, or only when the volume is turned up?

 

 

Sorry, let me be more clear. I don't think the popping etc is from clipping or anything, I think it's from using CPU. I could get a new iPad--very encouraging that y'all have had good results with a relatively affordable one 9th gen--and that might very well fix the problem. So if I get an 1/8" to stereo 1/4" cable, I should be able to plug the iPad's audio into pretty much any mixer or speaker and I'd be golden, no USB audio interface necessary, is that correct?

[Baldwin Funster]

"no USB audio interface necessary, is that correct?".

 

Several people here run that way.

 

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, Baldwin Funster said:

"no USB audio interface necessary, is that correct?".

 

Several people here run that way.

 

 

Hey if the audio quality is good and performance is unaffected, I'm not gonna complain about buying one less thing!

 

Just to confirm, if I bought a second lil controller like the Arturia, I could (through AUM maybe?) have the pitch bend, mod wheels send messages both to Pianoteq and another software synth simultaneously, yeah? So I could control the note-off/on messages with the Kawai, mod messages with the Arturia wheels and pedal, and also use the Arturia keys to send note off/on messages to a separate synth app without controlling Pianoteq?

[ABECK]

I can do this in Camelot Pro using filters and MIDI channel translators, so I assume it would be doable in AUM.  

For example, I currently have setups where I use my Expression pedal on my Kurzweil to control VB3m, but keys drawbars and all other settings are being controlled from my Arturia.   At the same time, the keys and controllers on the Kurzweil control an internal sound, but the expression pedal is omitted.

[The Piano Man]

Despite my frustrations about an IOS setup, this thread is making me think I should try and persevere…

 

Does anyone know any way of getting a Volume Pedal to control iFretless but not to control Ravenscroft IOS? I cannot see where to disable the volume pedal on Ravenscroft IOS. I only want it on the bass sound coming via iFretless. 

 

Thanks in anticipation!

 

[Reezekeys]

7 hours ago, CHarrell said:

So if I get an 1/8" to stereo 1/4" cable, I should be able to plug the iPad's audio into pretty much any mixer or speaker and I'd be golden, no USB audio interface necessary, is that correct?

 

Yes, it will work great. My Alto TX308s only have XLR inputs but there are 1/8" stereo to two XLR cables as well as 1/8-to-1/4 cables.

 

The 9G iPad is often discounted from Apple's $329. I got it for $270 at Best Buy.

[Reezekeys]

5 hours ago, CHarrell said:

Just to confirm, if I bought a second lil controller like the Arturia, I could (through AUM maybe?) have the pitch bend, mod wheels send messages both to Pianoteq and another software synth simultaneously, yeah? So I could control the note-off/on messages with the Kawai, mod messages with the Arturia wheels and pedal, and also use the Arturia keys to send note off/on messages to a separate synth app without controlling Pianoteq?

 

Yes. You'll need a hub (attached to the CCK) to connect both controllers to the iPad. Each AUM channel has midi filters for the various midi messages, so you can control what messages get to Pianoteq and other synths. AUM also has a midi matrix allowing you to route midi from any source to any destination - and you can merge midi inputs there too. It's pretty flexible.

 

Full disclosure - the hub hanging off the CCK is the one big drag in all of this. Maybe a USB extension cable to put the hub farther away can help - otherwise you have a "dongle" hanging off a dongle! You might also need to separately power one of the controllers, and plan on having the CCK connected to power - it's not a lock that the iPad's battery alone can power two controllers.