Have you gone from hardware stage keyboard to an iPad and controller setup for bread and butter piano/keyboard sounds? How did it go?

[kanefsky]

7 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

So it is an iPad power issue, meaning mine is just too weak and I'd need to upgrade?

 

It has to do with older iPads with Lightning connectors versus newer ones with USB-C.

 

Lightning isn't even compatible with USB devices without using the Camera Connection Kit dongle and you may also need a powered USB hub to supply enough power to the USB devices that require it.

 

USB-C can supply plenty of power directly from the iPad without any dongles or hubs.  You can even use a USB-C iPad to charge your phone or other devices.

 

 

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, CHarrell said:

I was experimenting with larger libraries on my iPad just the other day and hooked up an external SSD so it could save the samples...and I got an error message saying the SSD required too much power to run. So what's that mean? Do I need to buy a CCK adapter that allows for simultaneous charging, is my iPad just too weak no matter what, I don't know.

 

I take it from this quote you have the original USB2 CCK, without the charging port; just a single USB port. Am I right?

 

I have the newer "USB3" CCK with the lightning port for charging. I connect the 20 watt iPad charging cube that came with my iPad 9g to this port. I connect my Roland A800 to the USB port. It works. The CCK is supposed to adhere to the USB3 standard (now called "USB3.1 Gen 1") and be able to deliver 900 ma to that port.

 

I've also connected a 10000mAh battery bank to the CCK when AC power wasn't nearby and that works as well.

 

The USB3 CCK should get you faster transfer speeds to that SSD too, since the original CCK dongle is USB2.

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I take it from this quote you have the original USB2 CCK, without the charging port; just a single USB port. Am I right?

 

I have the newer "USB3" CCK with the lightning port for charging. I connect the 20 watt iPad charging cube that came with my iPad 9g to this port. I connect my Roland A800 to the USB port. It works. The CCK is supposed to adhere to the USB3 standard (now called "USB3.1 Gen 1") and be able to deliver 900 ma to that port.

 

I've also connected a 10000mAh battery bank to the CCK when AC power wasn't nearby and that works as well.

 

The USB3 CCK should get you faster transfer speeds to that SSD too, since the original CCK dongle is USB2.

 

That's exactly right.

[Reezekeys]

On the subject of power – that's probably the #1 issue with my iPad and keyboard. At this point it's not that big an issue because 99% of the time it's fine, but I'll be honest and say that the lightning & CCK combo can be problematic, and those here recommending an iPad or device with USB-C have a valid point. USB-C is not Apple-proprietary; lightning is. Most of my issues with lightning and power came from 3rd-party cables. I've tried a few lightning extension cables - including a "miFi certified" one (i.e., they supposedly pay Apple a royalty for that label) and I still occasionally got the dreaded "this accessory requires too much power" alert. I figured maybe I needed an adapter with more juice so I got a 45 watt model – with the same results. I now use a single 3rd-party certified USB-C to lightning cable with no extension, meaning I need AC power relatively close to my keyboard. This is with the iPad's original 20-watt charging cube. You live & learn with these things. I consider my rig reliable and have no qualms bringing it to any gig. However, one of my two Apple CCKs now gives me the error! I'm going to the Apple Store with the expectation they will replace it - but I can imagine them giving me an argument. We'll see what happens there. I like having a second CCK as a backup – with good reason, it turns out!

 

I can imagine anyone seeing this as not a great vote of confidence for an lightning-equipped iPad music rig! As I said though, my setup is now stable and I totally enjoy playing gigs with it. My iPad 9G has proven to have more than enough horsepower to host multiple instruments and effects. Since I play music for a living (if you can call it that!) I have the luxury of downtime at home, with my rig set up where I can explore any "idiosyncrasies" that come up and find solutions for them. It's been very stable for a long time now.

 

If you get the current USB3 CCK, you should be able to have your iPad connected to power and supply USB power to any accessory plugged into that port. It may be possible for the iPad battery alone to power a USB accessory – depending on how much power it needs – while keeping its discharge rate slow enough to get through a gig (I prefer not to take a chance there). If the keyboard you connect the CCK to is self-powered, you may not need to have power connected to the CCK at all - you might even be able to use your older CCK, though of course the battery on the iPad will be losing it's charge during a gig. A healthy battery might do just fine for a typical gig - or you can connect it to a charger during a break. As you can see, everyone's situation will be different. I'm still happy I got my bargain-priced iPad that easily handles the demands of my music rig. It ticks many more boxes on the plus side than the minus side - but yea, there can be some minuses!

 

It seems the lightning era of iPads and iPhones is coming to an end, which is probably a good thing. IMO it's about making the best with what you have. It took me a minute or two, along with the expense of a few cables, but I think it's certainly possible to dial in a setup with these older iPads that will make you happy. Good luck!

[kanefsky]

Lightning will also be replaced by USB-C on iPhones starting in 10 days (September 12) with the announcement of new models.  It's already used by almost all other mobile phones for many years.

 

By the end of 2024 USB-C is required by law for all phones and tablets sold in the European Union.  In 2026 for laptop charging as well (Apple adopted it on laptops long ago).  It's unlikely that Apple would maintain a different standard in the US even if it's not illegal.

[Reezekeys]

Yes I know - no more lightning. I imagine Apple will continue to sell the current iPhone line along with the ones they introduce soon, based on past practices. My iPad 9G may continue to be sold as well. Regardless of when those guys are gone from the shelves, I'm sure lightning accessories will be available for years, from Apple and 3rd party vendors. Apple still has this on their website:

 

[kanefsky]

4 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Yes I know - no more lightning. I imagine Apple will continue to sell the current iPhone line along with the ones they introduce soon, based on past practices. My iPad 9G may continue to be sold as well.

 

The EU regulations are why things may not follow past practices.  It won't be legal to sell them in the EU after next year so Apple will be much more incentivized to switch over all their sales and manufacturing.  The 9th gen iPad was already replaced a year ago and is being phased out (sold at big discounts by Amazon, Best Buy, etc.)

 

 

11 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 I'm sure lightning accessories will be available for years, from Apple and 3rd party vendors. Apple still has this on their website:

 

The profit margins on accessories are so high it would be business malpractice not to keep selling them to users with outdated equipment . The CCK dongle alone costs almost 10% of the price of an entire latest-generation iPad.

 

 

[Reezekeys]

I guess I'm just trying to make the point that an older iPad or iPhone with lightning can be a viable music rig. From what I read here, CHarrel has one, there are a few more of us with the 9G, and others with even older ones. If someone was starting out and considering an iPad or other tablet, I would recommend a USB-C equipped one. Pretty soon that won't be an option, I know. Speaking for myself, I like to squeeze as much life as I can out of whatever I use to make music with – my wallet is usually the deciding factor anyway!

[kanefsky]

1 minute ago, Reezekeys said:

I guess I'm just trying to make the point that an older iPad or iPhone with lightning can be a viable music rig. 

 

Of course it can.  But I wouldn't recommend anyone buying an iPad today choose one.  If you're on a tight budget, better to get a refurbished or used iPad Air, Mini, Pro, or 10th gen.  Also factor in the cost of any overpriced accessories like Camera Connection Kits when figuring out what it will really cost you.

 

 

[stoken6]

There's a Samsung (Android) tablet with TWO USB-C ports. I'd love to see this on an iPad - one port for power, one for connectivity (such as an audio/MIDI interface).

 

Cheers, Mike.

[kanefsky]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

There's a Samsung (Android) tablet with TWO USB-C ports. I'd love to see this on an iPad - one port for power, one for connectivity (such as an audio/MIDI interface).

 

There's also the Pixel Tablet, which is an Android tablet that Google sells which comes with a magnetic base and charges through several pins on the back of the device while leaving the USB-C port free for other things.

 

Newer iPads also have similar "Smart Connector" pins but I think the only thing that uses them is Apple's Magic Keyboard.  However if you get the Magic Keyboard then you can power the iPad (and the keyboard) through the keyboard's USB-C port and still have the iPad's USB-C port available.

 

So far I've only seen one third-party accessory that uses Apple's Smart Connector pins, but I think it's no longer available.  That would be the Logitech Base.  Probably Apple broke compatibility with it on some new iPad models and they gave up .

 

It's possible that future iPads will support MagSafe charging or the new Qi2 magnetic charging standard which would allow lots of different devices to use the same wireless magnetic chargers.  I think it's more geared for phones, however. Tablets might either be too big and heavy or too slow to charge that way.

 

[stoken6]

@kanefsky you're right that the magnetic pins for the Magic keyboard do provide the ability to charge. It would be great if Apple opened this up for thirdparty use - or even just supplied their own charger that used this connection. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Baldwin Funster]

If the Chinese hadn't forced apple into the 3rd party game by pirating, Apple would doubtless not have any compatibility with non Apple made accessories even now. I don't hope to see much or any 3rd party cooperation from Apple.

[Reezekeys]

On 9/2/2023 at 11:11 AM, Reezekeys said:

one of my two Apple CCKs now gives me the error! I'm going to the Apple Store with the expectation they will replace it - but I can imagine them giving me an argument. We'll see what happens there.

 

Just got back from the Apple Store and thought I'd add a quick postscript. I actually carried my A800 to the store, expecting to set it up to demonstrate how the power (and midi connectivity) "blinks out" for a few seconds, then comes back. I needn't have bothered. The "genius" immediately swapped my CCK for a new one and was very nice about it. "Looks like you've done the work to troubleshoot this, we'll just go ahead with the exchange" was what he said. I didn't even have to show him my receipt proving I bought mine less than a year ago (they have a one year warranty), however he said it would help so I did. Score one for the customer here - my previous online chat with an Apple support person had them reading from a script, asking me to update my iPad's OS. I shut that down and asked for a genius bar appointment, which is what I'm gonna do anytime these kinds of issues arise in the future.

 

On top of that, when I mentioned to the genius that I was a musician (and actually made my living from music!) he offered to hook me up with some kind of Apple "business outreach" program where I would be able to get percs related to buying or leasing Apple stuff. Not sure what that's about but I'll find out soon. The new CCK is doing fine (so far!) At these prices, it better! 🙂 

[JoJoB3]

On 8/30/2023 at 11:45 AM, CHarrell said:

The lack of awesome iOS pianos--after a month of testing, Pianoteq still just doesn't quite do it for me yet, and I read mixed things on all the other apps out there from Ravenscroft to Pure Piano etc.--has got me wondering if a Windows tablet or something might be best for me after all. From what I've been hearing, Garritan CFX sounds amazing and I'd hope its presets feature something live-friendly. I'd also likely upgrade from NSK Studio 1 to 2, the demos sound much better out of the box than 1 did (I have a love hate relationship with it, I appreciate the details it includes but it takes too much effort for me to just get that "classic" Rhodes sounds that boards like the CP88 pull off effortlessly). 

 

The only caveat with this is I'd need to find a tablet with the power to host these plugins and more--probably 16GB RAM--and I need to keep the budget down.

Not new by any means but take a long look at Keyscape (and Omnisphere). VERY useful, great sounding staple sounds.
I'd suggest a Surface Pro 7 or 8, i5 or i7 model with 16+GB ram and a Surface Dock 2 before Surface Go. That said I'm still using an old Surface Pro 3 i7 model.
VST host: Take a look at Cantabile (free version to paid).

* NEVER Apple here. Soft-eggshell white trash.

[Ibarch]

2 hours ago, JoJoB3 said:

I'd suggest a Surface Pro 7 or 8, i5 or i7 model with 16+GB ram and a Surface Dock 2 before Surface Go. That said I'm still using an old Surface Pro 3 i7 model.
 

I would agree with  Surface Pro 7 or better, i5 and 16GB ram. Plus 512GB SSD or more. Obviously if budget permits. For those with more constrained budgets a Surface Go 3 with the fastest available chip can do a reasonable job 

 

I wouldn't bother with a Surface Dock 2 . It is extremely overpriced  and the graphics chips are unreliable. Mine died inside 18 months, only came with a 12 month warranty. Look for a generic USB hub for a quarter of the price  with 1  or  2 Usb-C / hdmi / dvi / display port connections to suit your monitor(s). Or thunderbolt if you get the latest surface pro. 

[Baldwin Funster]

I took a cue from Reezekeys and have a used iPhone SE on the way for a backup to my iPad. With any luck it won't be trashed and have a decent battery. I believe Reezekeys said he got his A pro series midi controller to run on bus power. If I'm right on that then all I need for a blues jam rig is a simple CCK, midi cable and stereo mini to 1/4 cable from headphone jack to pa. As long as I get atleast 3hours from the battery I'm good. My human battery only lasts 3 hours anyways.

If the bus power doesn't work, the A pro has a barrel connector for a wall wart so that's OK too.

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, Baldwin Funster said:

I believe Reezekeys said he got his A pro series midi controller to run on bus power. If I'm right on that then all I need for a blues jam rig is a simple CCK, midi cable and stereo mini to 1/4 cable from headphone jack to pa. As long as I get atleast 3hours from the battery I'm good. My human battery only lasts 3 hours anyways.

If the bus power doesn't work, the A pro has a barrel connector for a wall wart so that's OK too.

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news - yes my A800 is powered off the CCK, not its wall wart - but I always connect the CCK to power on its lightning connector, so that's kind of the same difference. I would not expect the battery of the SE to power the A800, even accepting that the SE's charge would decrease. I've seen my iPhone unexpectedly shut down even with an indicated charge over 10 - 20%. I find iOS very picky about power consumption - I believe Apple got into trouble over that and added "battery health" options to iOS to address it.

 

If the battery in the used SE is original, I would be shocked to hear it holds a charge more than 15 minutes (and worn batteries are the ones most prone to the unexpected shutdowns I mentioned)! Being cheap and up for challenges, when I dug my SE out of the sock drawer to use for a music rig I bought a 3rd-party battery on Amazon & installed it myself. I still would not trust it to get through a gig even if I had the wall wart powering the A800! Maybe you'll have better luck.

 

I carry a 10000mAh battery bank to gigs as backup. At home I once did an experiment powering both the Phone/CCK and A800 from it, left it on overnight and it was at 3/4 charge the next morning. That's another option for your blues jam.

[Baldwin Funster]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news - yes my A800 is powered off the CCK, not its wall wart - but I always connect the CCK to power on its lightning connector, so that's kind of the same difference. I would not expect the battery of the SE to power the A800, even accepting that the SE's charge would decrease. I've seen my iPhone unexpectedly shut down even with an indicated charge over 10 - 20%. I find iOS very picky about power consumption - I believe Apple got into trouble over that and added "battery health" options to iOS to address it.

 

If the battery in the used SE is original, I would be shocked to hear it holds a charge more than 15 minutes (and worn batteries are the ones most prone to the unexpected shutdowns I mentioned)! Being cheap and up for challenges, when I dug my SE out of the sock drawer to use for a music rig I bought a 3rd-party battery on Amazon & installed it myself. I still would not trust it to get through a gig even if I had the wall wart powering the A800! Maybe you'll have better luck.

 

I carry a 10000mAh battery bank to gigs as backup. At home I once did an experiment powering both the Phone/CCK and A800 from it, left it on overnight and it was at 3/4 charge the next morning. That's another option for your blues jam.

Oh well. The power thing isn't really that important to me. The fact that the iPhone is small, powerful enough to run b3x and aum and not overly costly is the main thing. 

[Reezekeys]

Oh you're gonna like that original SE, I'm sure! It's a little jewel and the last of its kind - I doubt Apple will make another phone that small (and if they did it won't have a headphone jack). At worst you'll have an easily pocketable backup for any other rig you use.

[drawback]

17 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

Oh well. The power thing isn't really that important to me. The fact that the iPhone is small, powerful enough to run b3x and aum and not overly costly is the main thing. 

B-3X doesn't install on an iPhone – iPad only.

[Baldwin Funster]

14 minutes ago, drawback said:

B-3X doesn't install on an iPhone – iPad only.

That's unfortunate.  Vb3m it is then.

[Baldwin Funster]

On 9/4/2023 at 5:32 PM, Reezekeys said:

 

....If the battery in the used SE is original, I would be shocked to hear it holds a charge more than 15 minutes (and worn batteries are the ones most prone to the unexpected shutdowns I mentioned)!....

 So I got my iPhone SE 1st Gen from ebay yesterday and put vb3m, AUM, streetlytron 63, sunriser, alina and some oberhiem OBXA or something I forget the exact name. The other stuff I want to put on are all too big. Right now I'm being throttled by tmobile for using too much hotspot data.

My biggest disappointment, after reading that b3x does not have an iPhone version is that GSI MiniOrchestra is ipad only. I'm devastated by that. The strings and horns in that app are my bread and butter for the 60s soul band I play in. Cmon Guido.

Ok the battery. Well it's in better shape than the 15 minute prediction. It is a little wonky and unpredictable but in the window of between say 80% to 15% its acting pretty OK. I just charged it to 80% and let it run vb3m with a couple of metal thingies holding down 2 notes and let it run continuously for about 4 hours and I stopped the test with about 15% left. Yesterday day I used it to bus power my A500 and it didnt give me the "too many accessories", And ran it for a couple of hours. I'm not ready to say that this performance is reliable and the battery won't totally fail in a week but at least I'm not putting a new battery in just yet.

[Reezekeys]

You ran your A500 of the iPhone's battery and didn't get the "this accessory uses too much power" alert? That's nice! I'm not sure I'd go to a gig without some kind of backup power though.

 

Ya gotta do your research with those apps! The App Store will tell you which apps are iPad only and which ones work on both iPads & iPhones. Good luck getting replacements. Virsyn AudioLayer combined with Logic's Autosampler is my go-to for sounds I can't find iOS apps to cover – I couldn't do the AWB gig on my phone without it.

[yannis D]

BTW, i played two days ago with my ipad 9th gen/Camelot and a Korg bluetooth keyboard in a live concert. Mainly pads, some clavs, a patch of VB3m, strings (all other sounds came from my NE5 and Ultranova). All went smooth with minimal latency from the Bluetooth Korg. Audio out from my ipad's audio went directly to the audio ins from the Ultranova. 

[Meta]

On 8/3/2023 at 11:34 PM, Alkeys said:

Hey keys brothers - I'd really like to hear about your experience from you players out there who have switched from a traditional hardware keyboard rig like a Nord Stage 3 or 4 or YC73/88 whatever etc...that you use in the bottom keyboard role to cover your bread and butter keyboard sounds and who have switched to a controller and an iPad rig to do their thing instead.  

 

Yes. I did a cover band gig with only an Arturia Keylab61M2 and an iPad 9. Headphone left output via a direct box to house, and right output to my stage monitor. I used PianoTeq for acoustic pianos, electric pianos and clavs. VB3M for B3 stuff. Moog Model D, Moog Model 15 and OB-Xd for synths. AudioLayer for sampling. 

 

Big thanks to Reezekeys for all the info he's shared on his setup in various threads. I have the same iPhone and iPad as Reezekeys.

 

I went with Camelot Pro on the iPad to start with. I like using the bigger iPad screen (Camelot is iPad only, not iPhone - I can still use the iPhone as a simple backup since all the synth/sampler plugins I have run on both). Camelot Pro made setting up splits, layers and transpositions relatively easy. Everything is based on set lists so getting through the show was simple. Patches change with song selection.

 

I'm now experimenting with TH-U and Tonex plugins for guitar, using an external audio interface with the iPad so I can step through keyboard and guitar setups on the same iPad using a Camelot set list.

 

 

 

[Paul Woodward]

I bought the ipad 9 as its the last to have a headphone jack. Turns out I then got a Yamaha CK61 which integrates the audio over USB, so I could have used a newer ipad. 

Still, I have the option for other setups and, as @Reezekeys and others have said, that gen has more than enough horsepower. 

[yannis D]

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

I bought the ipad 9 as its the last to have a headphone jack. Turns out I then got a Yamaha CK61 which integrates the audio over USB, so I could have used a newer ipad. 

Still, I have the option for other setups and, as @Reezekeys and others have said, that gen has more than enough horsepower. 

I can assure you that the 9th gen has enough power for multiple and advanced setups, let alone your bread and butter pianos/aps/organ/synth settings most of us use. I run mine through Camelot and a bluetooth Korg keyboard, and there's zero latency and hickups. Way better than me older laptops.

[Paul Woodward]

On 9/29/2023 at 9:52 AM, yannis D said:

I can assure you that the 9th gen has enough power for multiple and advanced setups, let alone your bread and butter pianos/aps/organ/synth settings most of us use. I run mine through Camelot and a bluetooth Korg keyboard, and there's zero latency and hickups. Way better than me older laptops.

I had one previously, so I know what it can do. As I said, it was the headphone jack I needed (at the time) I wasnt doubting the power of it 🙂

[Paul Woodward]

Resurrecting this thread as I have found myself a little pub band to play in and I’m not lugging an 18kg stage piano and risking it being a big beer mat.

Soooooo, picked up a(nother) Roland A800 pretty much for free (guy threw in a new wheeled case worth almost as much as I paid for the board). It’s the case I fancied really but I have hooked up the iPad to my Yamaha CK61 and using the A800 as an external keyboard.

So, some big sounds and a setup that weighs around 14kg with stands.

Yes, I know I have been here before, but I’m happier taking out gear that cost me so little yet can still sound great.

I bought the iPad 9 just in case I needed the headphone, but so far I can integrate it with the CK.

Coming full circle, the A800 and iPad will be going to rehearsals and that’s a combined weight of just 5kg and no need for a power supply either. Now that is nice and light. Nice case as well…