Have you gone from hardware stage keyboard to an iPad and controller setup for bread and butter piano/keyboard sounds? How did it go?

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, JazzPiano88 said:

It's interesting.   What people here are telling us is that simultaneously:

 

a) HW manufacturers don't have the knowledge/expertise to produce the best sounds.

b) VI manufacturers have solved all of the sonic reproduction problems and are superior, but don't have the resources to produce a HW platform.

 

That is a complete load of Horse Shit.  

 

I'm going with Al Quinn on this.  Show me the audio files.

 

 

Frankly, I don't see what's so hard to believe here. Just to use a popular example, Vienna Symphonic Library's Yamaha CFX sample library takes 240 GB for its full arsenal. That's not even considering the system requirements to adequately run it. What dedicated hardware instrument could do that? Compare that to flagship Yamaha boards that sample a CFX...they're at what, 2 GB max? I don't know what kind of quantum science universe-shredding crap you'd have to pull to optimize a library of VSL's size and detail into any hardware board unless you basically just plopped a straight fully-gutsed computer into the body of a keyboard...and at that point, what is the point? Some software developers have of course branched into hardware, such as Arturia and IK Multimedia, but their hardware offerings are typically things you won't find in their software lineup, probably because they think it'd be a diminishing ROI to put, say, their range of modelled synths in a hardware body as opposed to offloading that component onto users such as ourselves and being able to focus solely on creating and distributing their software.

 

I'm not sayin this to diss hardware, I much prefer the simplicity of setup and use, and again can appreciate that hardware boards can and often tailor their soundset to really sing in a live environment in a way that VI developers seem not to. I'm just tryin to be objective.

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, Baldwin Funster said:

With AUM you can open a channel strip and assign a midi channel to it.

In the same "session" you can open another channel strip and assign another midi channel to it. Or the same midi ch as the first one. I don't know the limitations but it's gonna be more than 10 or 12 channel strips.

 

The channel strip allows you to put an AUMv3 compatible instrument app on it. And each channel strip allows you to put effects apps in line with the instrument. In fact you can put several effects on a channel and change the order. And this is just the start of the routing possibilities. What I described is aum 101.

And there's more:

You can use aum midi learn to assign knobs on your midi controllers to control aum parameters like channel volume.

Or instrument parameters.

Or effect parameters.

Or more than one thing at the same time.

And it's easy to do.

Not to mention unlimited zones.

Try all that with your HW rig.

I'm sure you can get it done but not as easy and fast.

 

That said I'm considering using a hardware board with an iPad organ app on the side.

Why?

I'm sick of the lousy key beds in midi controllers. Even my lowly DS61 has better action than any dedicated controller that's not $900 and with a nanokontrol I have 4 scenes of sliders,knobs, and switches which is 4 times as many controlls than any midi board I've seen.

 

So I want to break this down,  are you saying I can find an app or something that can control pitch and modulation--I saw someone at some point link an app where it just looks like pitch bend and mod wheel--put that in AUM, then route those to whatever plugin I wanted that is also inside AUM, such an instance of Pianoteq? How would another controller, such as a nanokontrol--which I'd prefer to find an alternative for--fit into that?

[Baldwin Funster]

15 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

So I want to break this down,  are you saying I can find an app or something that can control pitch and modulation--I saw someone at some point link an app where it just looks like pitch bend and mod wheel--put that in AUM, then route those to whatever plugin I wanted that is also inside AUM, such an instance of Pianoteq? How would another controller, such as a nanokontrol--which I'd prefer to find an alternative for--fit into that?

Funny you should mention pitchbend. That's the one app I haven't been able to find except some $80 thing that I forget the name of and so far I'm too cheap to buy. But yeah an AUM compatible app that is a pitch bender should be able to be controlled if it responds to CC. How a nanok fits into that is you connect the nanok to a USB hub that all your controllers are connected to ,with the other side connected to your iPad. In AUM all midi devices are recognized and you enable the nanok. Then you go through the midi learn processes. There might be extra difficulty with pitch bend because it's not usually just straight CC coming from the wheel of controllers, so the pitch bend app might not support CC control of that parameter. And if it did support CCs you'd have to set up a center return with MSB and LSB. And the nanokontrol doesn't have a wheel. You don't be better off buying a 25 key keylab or something. I realize this post went stream of consciousness somewhere but there it is.

[CHarrell]

9 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

Funny you should mention pitchbend. That's the one app I haven't been able to find except some $80 thing that I forget the name of and so far I'm too cheap to buy. But yeah an AUM compatible app that is a pitch bender should be able to be controlled if it responds to CC. How a nanok fits into that is you connect the nanok to a USB hub that all your controllers are connected to ,with the other side connected to your iPad. In AUM all midi devices are recognized and you enable the nanok. Then you go through the midi learn processes. There might be extra difficulty with pitch bend because it's not usually just straight CC coming from the wheel of controllers, so the pitch bend app might not support CC control of that parameter. And if it did support CCs you'd have to set up a center return with MSB and LSB. And the nanokontrol doesn't have a wheel. You don't be better off buying a 25 key keylab or something. I realize this post went stream of consciousness somewhere but there it is.

 

What about something like this?

 

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/modwheels/id519468137

 

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/pitchbend-pro/id1539228332

[Baldwin Funster]

24 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

What about something like this?

 

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/modwheels/id519468137

 

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/pitchbend-pro/id1539228332

The Description says it controls things that already support pitch bend. Vb3 for instance does not, Idk about pianoteq. The description also doesn't say its AUM compatible. So I'd day no, it won't work the way you want.

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, Baldwin Funster said:

The Description says it controls things that already support pitch bend. Vb3 for instance does not, Idk about pianoteq. The description also doesn't say its AUM compatible. So I'd day no, it won't work the way you want.

 

Well, crap, guess that's another thing I have to have on the checklist. Am I making things too complicated?

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, JazzPiano88 said:

What I'm saying is that the 240GB sample does not sound better.  If it did, people would be using it live.

Some people DO use large VSTs live. Some people don't want to be bothered with the complication, even if it sounds better.

 

There are lots of examples where people decline to choose the thing that sounds better, because it's too.. something. Too pricey, too heavy, too limited, too fiddley, whatever. 

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

The Description says it controls things that already support pitch bend. Vb3 for instance does not, Idk about pianoteq.

Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see anything about wanting to bend organ or pianos (VB3 or pianoteq). It's not a common need.

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see anything about wanting to bend organ or pianos (VB3 or pianoteq). It's not a common need.

 

Well admittedly I would want to have bending capabilities in Pianoteq for clav if not EP as well. 

[Baldwin Funster]

I use pitch bend in b3x all the time. For the organ solo in do it again, some Garth Hudson the Band stuff, sometimes I do a faux motor stop, there are other organ uses as well.

The EP intro to shake your booty comes to mind, even though I believe that's originally a sped up guitar. The only instrument I haven't found any kind of usefulness for pitchbend is acoustic piano. I make it a point to defy taboo but I haven't been able to make that sound good.

[AnotherScott]

5 hours ago, CHarrell said:

Well admittedly I would want to have bending capabilities in Pianoteq for clav if not EP as well. 

 

 

As BF's reply demonstrated, bend is not necessarily useless for organ or EP, etc.... but as I said it is not a common need, so I would not be shocked to find that a given software (or hardware) implementation of such instrument emulation doesn't respond to it.

[kanefsky]

10 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

The Description says it controls things that already support pitch bend. Vb3 for instance does not, Idk about pianoteq.

 

Pianoteq does support pitch bend, even on acoustic piano.  It can be controlled by a pitch bend wheel or by aftertouch, and I believe you can even bend multiple notes independently using polyphonic aftertouch.

 

As for a hardware controller to supplement an ES110 or ES120, if you've got the bucks you could go with something like the Expressive E Touché.  If you're using Pianoteq or another VST, then by definition you don't need to care whether your keyboard can support direct input from the controller.  You can just plug them both into the computer or iPad.  You could also add standard pedals using a USB interface like a MIDI Expression

 

 

 

 

[HammondDave]

13 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

With AUM you can open a channel strip and assign a midi channel to it.

In the same "session" you can open another channel strip and assign another midi channel to it. Or the same midi ch as the first one. I don't know the limitations but it's gonna be more than 10 or 12 channel strips.

 

The channel strip allows you to put an AUMv3 compatible instrument app on it. And each channel strip allows you to put effects apps in line with the instrument. In fact you can put several effects on a channel and change the order. And this is just the start of the routing possibilities. What I described is aum 101.

And there's more:

You can use aum midi learn to assign knobs on your midi controllers to control aum parameters like channel volume.

Or instrument parameters.

Or effect parameters.

Or more than one thing at the same time.

And it's easy to do.

Not to mention unlimited zones.

Try all that with your HW rig.

I'm sure you can get it done but not as easy and fast.

 

That said I'm considering using a hardware board with an iPad organ app on the side.

Why?

I'm sick of the lousy key beds in midi controllers. Even my lowly DS61 has better action than any dedicated controller that's not $900 and with a nanokontrol I have 4 scenes of sliders,knobs, and switches which is 4 times as many controlls than any midi board I've seen.

‘I just wish that someone would create an “AUM for Beginners” video. I cannot wrap my head around it.  And I have tried several times.  

[Baldwin Funster]

26 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

‘I just wish that someone would create an “AUM for Beginners” video. I cannot wrap my head around it.  And I have tried several times.  

This is a good place to start.

 

 

[Reezekeys]

Nice video - I've been using AUM a while and didn't know you could restore a deleted channel!

 

What still gets me a little confused is that it seems you can have separate midi sources playing a channel's VI and controlling the "channel functions" like mute, volume, etc. Also, those parameters sometimes interact with the VI itself, such as "preset load" - it can get a little convoluted. I'm usually in the middle of trying to get a working patch happening, so I wind up trying different things until what I need to happen happens, then move on - but it would be nice to have a concrete understanding of how it all works.

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, kanefsky said:

 

Pianoteq does support pitch bend, even on acoustic piano.  It can be controlled by a pitch bend wheel or by aftertouch, and I believe you can even bend multiple notes independently using polyphonic aftertouch.

 

As for a hardware controller to supplement an ES110 or ES120, if you've got the bucks you could go with something like the Expressive E Touché.  If you're using Pianoteq or another VST, then by definition you don't need to care whether your keyboard can support direct input from the controller.  You can just plug them both into the computer or iPad.  You could also add standard pedals using a USB interface like a MIDI Expression

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the recommendations! As you implied though, I was hoping for something more affordable than the Touche, and those pedal interfaces look like they're going to be available December at the earliest. Are there really so few means of adding control surfaces out there that don't cost hundreds of dollars? I feel like I'm making this too complicated, but I don't know of a simpler solution. 

[kanefsky]

4 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

Thanks for the recommendations! As you implied though, I was hoping for something more affordable than the Touche, and those pedal interfaces look like they're going to be available December at the earliest. Are there really so few means of adding control surfaces out there that don't cost hundreds of dollars?

 

I wasn't sure if you were trying to optimize more for price, quality, size/weight, etc.

 

If you don't mind something slightly larger, I like the Arturia MicroLab a lot.  It's only $69 and it has some nice touch-sensitive strips for pitch bend and mod wheel.  It also has 25 keys which you might not need, but you could map those to change between different presets in your VST or other useful things.

 

[kanefsky]

Another interesting possibility for pedals is the Boss FS-1-WL.  That will operate as set of wired or wireless MIDI pedals.  The built-in pedals are just the on/off type, but you can also connect a standard sustain or expression pedal through it.  It's a little less inexpensive at $130.

 

Edit:  There are also cheaper and more available versions of the MIDI Expression.  Here's one I found:  https://www.amazon.com/DOREMIDI-Expression-Converter-Expander-MPC-10/dp/B0BZ87CVJ7

[CHarrell]

4 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

 

As BF's reply demonstrated, bend is not necessarily useless for organ or EP, etc.... but as I said it is not a common need, so I would not be shocked to find that a given software (or hardware) implementation of such instrument emulation doesn't respond to it.

 

Is there a way to know from manuals or something if a hardware instrument supports these kinds of control messages? I wanted to get an ES120 to use as a software controller for weight/form factor and quality of sound, but to do what I want it looks like I'd need:

 

1. Keyboard 

2. USB Audio interface

3. Pianoteq (yeah I've just been feasting on the demo this whole time) -

4 .(5?) MIDI control surface that may or may not even have expression pedal, meaning I'd need another dongle for that

6. AUM 

7. potentially an app for effects like IFX

8. a new iPad with the power to host these (would get the 9th gen that people have been recommending)

9. potentially some kind of USB MIDI hub to connect all these control dongles together

 

And at that point, would I really be saving any hassle vs. carrying a larger board? I could potentially just get a 520, a multieffects pedal like HX Effects or Stomp, and something like an old MSC2 for pitch bend and potential modulation, then just call that a day. 

[kanefsky]

If you want both pitch bend/mod wheel and an expression pedal input, you could save some money and complexity by getting something like an Arturia MiniLab

 

Here is a great hub for only $18 that will let you connect power, two USB MIDI devices, and an audio interface to an iPad or computer:  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08SVZFFPP.

 

You could also get one with a built-in audio interface for $20 to save you from having to have a separate audio interface:  https://www.amazon.com/Anker-PowerExpand-Adapter-Delivery-MacBook/dp/B096LV7W9D (the audio quality will probably be closer to a dedicated audio interface than many people would want to admit).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CHarrell]

6 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

You could also get one with a built-in audio interface for $20 to save you from having to have a separate audio interface:  https://www.amazon.com/Anker-PowerExpand-Adapter-Delivery-MacBook/dp/B096LV7W9D (the audio quality will probably be closer to a dedicated audio interface than many people would want to admit).

 

Int-eh-resting! I know not all USB Audio interfaces are made equal--just discovered my Numa apparently doesn't have a dedicated one so I have to use Asio4All on it at least with laptop--does this one have the mojo to handle plugins well? How do you control things like level?

[CHarrell]

6 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

If you want both pitch bend/mod wheel and an expression pedal input, you could save some money and complexity by getting something like an Arturia MiniLab

 

Would the expression pedal go into that control port on the back?

[kanefsky]

8 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

Int-uh-resting! I know not all USB Audio interfaces are made equal--just discovered my Numa apparently doesn't have a dedicated one so I have to use Asio4All on it at least with laptop--does this one have the mojo to handle plugins well? How do you control things like level?

 

I'm not sure an audio interface needs "mojo" to handle plugins .  Unless of course you're talking about audio interfaces like UAD Apollo that actually have DSP chips inside for running plugins internally.  In the vast majority of cases it's the iPad or computer that's handling all the plugin stuff and so in the end the audio interface is just a digital-to-analog converter (DAC).  A lot of people claim to hear differences between $1000 DACs and $10,000 DACs and between different cables, etc. so I don't even want to get into that argument, but really the differences are pretty small.

 

The things it won't give you that a regular audio interface will have are things like mic preamps, hi-Z inputs for an electric guitar or bass, balanced outputs for very long cable runs, etc.  So I'd say it mostly depends on what other equipment (i.e. amp, speakers, mixing board, etc.) you need to connect to and whether you need absolutely pristine audiophile-quality sound or not.

 

7 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

Would the expression pedal go into that control port on the back?

 

Yep

[CHarrell]

4 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

'm not sure an audio interface needs "mojo" to handle plugins .

 

Can't the power (or lack thereof) on USB Audio interfaces dictate things like latency and buffer size? For example, I had my CP88's Steinberg interface choke on audio before and pop and click (based on data I presume?), whereas my UMC interface seems to handle things much better. Similarly, my iPad chokes much easier when just using its own internal audio while plugged into my headphones vs having it connected to a USB interface.

[kanefsky]

14 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

Can't the power (or lack thereof) on USB Audio interfaces dictate things like latency and buffer size? For example, I had my CP88's Steinberg interface choke on audio before and pop and click (based on data I presume?), whereas my UMC interface seems to handle things much better. Similarly, my iPad chokes much easier when just using its own internal audio while plugged into my headphones vs having it connected to a USB interface.

 

The buffer size is more related to where the audio processing is going on, not to simple digital-to-analog conversion.  If you're using the audio interface to handle some of the processing (e.g. parametric EQ, reverb, compression) then the limitations of the interface might require a larger buffer size.  If you're just using using an external DAC and doing all the processing inside the iPad then the buffer size would be related to how well the iPad is able to handle the processing and shouldn't be related to the DAC.  At least that's my understanding.

 

 

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, kanefsky said:

 

The buffer size is more related to where the audio processing is going on, not to simple digital-to-analog conversion.  If you're using the audio interface to handle some of the processing (e.g. parametric EQ, reverb, compression) then the limitations of the interface might require a larger buffer size.  If you're just using using an external DAC and doing all the processing inside the iPad then the buffer size would be related to how well the iPad is able to handle the processing and shouldn't be related to the DAC.  At least that's my understanding.

 

 

 

Gotcha. So would this work as a USB MIDI hub?

 

How would the connection chain work here?

 

Keyboard  USB MIDI Out > UMC? (ES120 is solely USB and Bluetooth MIDI)

iPad audio out > UMC (+plugging it in would allow iPad to receive MIDI messages?)

controller

Minilab controller USB or 5 pin MIDI Out > UMC?

UMC audio out > external speaker

 

Or would it be:

 

Keyboard USB out, iPad USB, Minilab USB > USB hub > UMC > UMC audio out to external speakers

[stoken6]

10 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

So would this work as a USB MIDI hub?

I don't think so. The Kawai ES120 acts as a USB Device, but the UMC204 does not have a "to device" USB port. The USB type-B port in the picture would connect to your iPad. 

 

If you want to simultaneously run USB MIDI from your Kawai into your iPad alongside audio out from your iPad, you'll need a hub with multiple "to device" ports (one for the Kawai, one for the Behringer). Or some audio interfaces include USB ports (M-Audio Air, Novation AudioHub...). 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[kanefsky]

15 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

Gotcha. So would this work as a USB MIDI hub?

 

You shouldn't need anything like that, or any kind of MIDI hub.  You just need a USB hub like one of the ones I listed depending on whether you want a separate external DAC or not.  The MiniLab and ES120 would connect to the USB hub (along with your USB charging cable when you wanted to charge) and the USB hub would connect to your iPad.  If you use an external DAC then that would also connect to the USB hub, otherwise you could get one of the hubs with a built-in DAC and 3.5mm audio output.

 

 

 

[CHarrell]

2 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

I don't think so. The Kawai ES120 acts as a USB Device, but the UMC204 does not have a "to device" USB port. The USB type-B port in the picture would connect to your iPad. 

 

If you want to simultaneously run USB MIDI from your Kawai into your iPad alongside audio out from your iPad, you'll need a hub with multiple "to device" ports (one for the Kawai, one for the Behringer). Or some audio interfaces include USB ports (M-Audio Air, Novation AudioHub...). 

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Just now, kanefsky said:

 

You shouldn't need anything like that, or any kind of "MIDI hub."  You just need a USB hub like one of the ones I listed depending on whether you want a separate external DAC or not.  The MiniLab and ES120 would connect to the USB hub (along with your USB charging cable when you wanted to charge) and the USB hub would connect to your iPad.  If you use an external DAC then that would also connect to the USB hub, otherwise you could get one of the hubs with a built-in DAC and 3.5mm audio output.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, you two. So would this be the move? : 

16 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

 

Keyboard USB out, iPad USB, Minilab USB > USB hub > UMC > UMC audio out to external speakers

 

[kanefsky]

Here's a picture of an approximate setup I threw together using what I had laying around

 

Two keyboards (main plus one with pitch bend/mod wheel and expression pedal input) and a small high-quality DAC (the little silver thing in the middle) connect to the USB ports of the hub along with a charging cable.  The hub then connects to the iPad.

 

You could also use a bigger DAC/audio interface with balanced XLR outputs if you needed that.  That's what I normally use for a stationary home setup but for a portable setup I use a small DAC like the one in the picture.  You could also use one of the USB hubs with the DAC built-in.