Yamaha P-125 and P-45 Successor Announced

[CHarrell]

https://yamahamusicians.com/yamaha-launches-new-p-225-p-145-p-series-digital-pianos/

 

I didn't see this on here, so thought I'd post it. The most significant feature...a new keybed! No longer the GHS, they are using what they're calling the Graded Hammer Compact, or GHC. 

[stoken6]

Hoping for a p-221 with 73 keys.

 

Presumably no 5-pin MIDI?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Adan]

6 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

Hoping for a p-221 with 73 keys.

 

A p-221 would be cool.  Didn't see anything in that blurb about 2-way usb midi, which was a great feature of the P-121.

[CHarrell]

37 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

Presumably no 5-pin MIDI?

 

Hard to say, this video didn't really show the back, but they also didn't advertise 5-pin MIDI, either.

 

 

[CHarrell]

 

 

Okay, pretty sure there's no 5-pin MIDI. Interestingly, this board seems to feature VRM, so depending on how good this new action is, it might be a decent lower weight and price alternative to the P515.

 

[AnotherScott]

Specs show no 5-pin MIDI, not surprising.

 

https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/pianos/p_series/p-225/specs.html#product-tabs

 

In general, a more "compact" action allows a shallower enclosure but with a resulting shorter distance to pivot point, which can increase the difference between how the keys play at the front of the action vs. at the rear. I don't find it particularly troublesome in the slim Casios, but some people do. If they've made other changes that improves it feel in other ways (compared to the GHS predecessor), it could still be a worthwhile trade-off, but out of the gate, I'd say odds are not great that this will feel better than GHS overall. But who knows...

[CHarrell]

4 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

n general, a more "compact" action allows a shallower enclosure but with a resulting shorter distance to pivot point, which can increase the difference between how the keys play at the front of the action vs. at the rear.

 

The review I linked mentioned "full-size keys", but I guess that could just be in reference to mini-keys, slim keys, bulimic keys, etc. 

 

5 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I'd say odds are not great that this will feel better than GHS overal

 

My hopes wouldn't be very high, but there is at least promise that after many years, they've created an action for this level of keyboard they deem significantly different from their iterative GHS design to actually give it a new name.

[stoken6]

5 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/pianos/p_series/p-225/specs.html#product-tabs

What are the 223 and 143 variants? I didn't see any difference in specs.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Dockeys]

26 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

What are the 223 and 143 variants? I didn't see any difference in specs.

 

Cheers, Mike

That’s weird. The numbers would suggest a 73 note model for each one? The specs are identical for 225/223 and 145/143 so maybe it’s an accidental release prior to an actual announcement later in the week??

 

The blurb on the newer GHC action wouldn’t fill me with too much excitement. It seems to focus on the fact that they tried to get the best parts of the GHS into a more compact format? To me that spells inferior at the cost of a thinner cabinet. Not sure if it saves much weight though as p125 is 11.8kgs v p225 is 11.5kgs. 
 

Looke to me like a slight upgrade on the existing P125. The design is more akin to the Kawai ES120/Casio PX competitors now. Spec wise it looks the same with audio interface but is Bluetooth audio a new addition?

[AnotherScott]

28 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

The review I linked mentioned "full-size keys", but I guess that could just be in reference to mini-keys, slim keys, bulimic keys, etc. 

 

Yeah... there are many "full-size" 88s, whose visible key area is essentially identical, but the amount of key that is "invisible" (behind the fallboard) varies quite a bit. The extra depth "on the other side" is one of the things that makes some models play more realistically than others... but those deeper keys mean a bigger and heavier board.

[CHarrell]

15 minutes ago, Dockeys said:

It seems to focus on the fact that they tried to get the best parts of the GHS into a more compact format?

 

Like shovelling days-old, room temperature Sphagetti-O soup from a pot into a bowl?

[D. Gauss]

did they put an organ sound that doesn't suck in there?  i love my p-125 but, 2 church organs? ugh!

 

 

also, i looked at the spec sheet. despite ad copy saying it takes up less room, great speakers, etc....  <<are now more portable than ever, including many new features which will take portable pianos to a whole new level.  The P-225 and P-145 have upgraded their look and now feature a much more compact and modern design, taking even less space in your room.>>

 

on the sheet it looks like the almost the exact same dimensions (52x6x11) and weight (26lbs). same wattage speakers (2x7watts),  etc.   really yamaha? why bother?  

 

[Bill H.]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Yeah... there are many "full-size" 88s, whose visible key area is essentially identical, but the amount of key that is "invisible" (behind the fallboard) varies quite a bit. The extra depth "on the other side" is one of the things that makes some models play more realistically than others... but those deeper keys mean a bigger and heavier board.

Watching that video of the guy playing and pausing at spots really tells the story on the action. Those keys have nothing past the "fallboard" - they are pivoting right there. Even the keys on my PX-5s have more... just played it a bit to confirm. 

 

[LarsHarner2]

1 hour ago, D. Gauss said:

did they put an organ sound that doesn't suck in there?  i love my p-125 but, 2 church organs? ugh!

 

 

also, i looked at the spec sheet. despite ad copy saying it takes up less room, great speakers, etc....  <<are now more portable than ever, including many new features which will take portable pianos to a whole new level.  The P-225 and P-145 have upgraded their look and now feature a much more compact and modern design, taking even less space in your room.>>

 

on the sheet it looks like the almost the exact same dimensions (52x6x11) and weight (26lbs). same wattage speakers (2x7watts),  etc.   really yamaha? why bother?  

 

I've had the P125 for 5 years and will likely keep it- it works great as a portable board and for me it sounds great for my type of music.

Of course the speakers don't match other pianos, but for 2x7 I think they are pretty good, but they really could upgrade them. I almost like the speakers where they are on the top right now vs. the back.

I do like how the pianos sounds on the 225 from the demos, however at the same weight, is the action really going to be that much different? The only think at the current moment I would consider trading in towards would be the PX-5000; I liked the playing experience.

 

I learned my lesson years ago; I had a P-95 on the stand, and got greedy and changed for a P-105 that didn't work (had a rattling, and a second one that wasn't great.

Of course, I would have upgraded over time but had a good run with the P-95

[stoken6]

Shorter key length, no 5-pin MIDI, no 73-key variant... the more I read about these boards, the less I'm interested!

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

[Lou Gehrig Charles]

13 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

did they put an organ sound that doesn't suck in there?  i love my p-125 but, 2 church organs? ugh!

 

 

 

 

+2

 

I owned a P-125 for about four days and promptly returned it.  The standard piano sound was fine....  I just couldn't get into any of the organ, synth or EP sounds at all.  I couldn't even find a second one to set as a preset.

[ProfD]

IMO, these sub-$1k digital pianos aren't really aimed at gigging muso. 

 

Of course, one could gig with a P-series DP but it but again IMO, the target audience is piano students and the home DP market.

 

Now, with MIDI I/O, instead of a dedicated MIDI KB controller, I would consider using P-series as an 88-note KB MIDI controller with a tone generator or underneath an unweighted ROMpler. The bonus is that it has onboard speakers and sounds that could be used in a pinch. 

 

Otherwise, I definitely would not be looking at these DPs for *serious* KB sounds.😎

[LarsHarner2]

14 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Shorter key length, no 5-pin MIDI, no 73-key variant... the more I read about these boards, the less I'm interested!

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

How different is the key length compared to the P-125? 

[D. Gauss]

I don't get it. Despite what they say, looking at the specs (unless i missed something):

it's not any lighter. It's not any louder. It's not any smaller, and it doesn't seem to have any more sounds than my p-125.  

[ElmerJFudd]

Understandable that they are ditching 5 pin for USB at the price point as their competitors have.
 

It’s disappointing to hear that key length is part of an overall materials reduction initiative on these entry level instruments. The P45/P125 are already 25-26lbs.  It doesn’t get much lighter than that in digital pianos (as opposed to keyboards). A reduction in the playable key surface area makes it less piano-like. 

[AnotherScott]

51 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

I don't get it. Despite what they say, looking at the specs (unless i missed something):

it's not any lighter. It's not any louder. It's not any smaller, and it doesn't seem to have any more sounds than my p-125.  

 

Weight:

P-125 = 26.01 lbs

P-224/225 = 25.375 lbs

P-143/145 = 24.5 lbs

 

Depth:

P-125 = 11.61 inches

P-224/225 = 10.6875 inches

P-143/145 = 10.5625 inches

 

Height:

P-125 = 6.54 inches

P-224/225 = 5.0625 inches

P-143/145 = 5.0625 inches

 

(Volume is probably the same, though having the same wattage doesn't actually assure that they will be the same volume.)

 

The piano sounds themselves look to be different.

[D. Gauss]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Weight:

P-125 = 26.01 lbs

P-224/225 = 25.375 lbs

P-143/145 = 24.5 lbs

 

Depth:

P-125 = 11.61 inches

P-224/225 = 10.6875 inches

P-143/145 = 10.5625 inches

 

Height:

P-125 = 6.54 inches

P-224/225 = 5.0625 inches

P-143/145 = 5.0625 inches

 

(Volume is probably the same, though having the same wattage doesn't actually assure that they will be the same volume.)

 

The piano sounds themselves look to be different.

 

They shaved barely inch here or there, but it weighs the same, so it's a wash.  Ever hear how loud a Fishman Loudbox acoustic guitar mini amp can be? It's crazy, clean, clear, goodness in a super small box.  It's 2023, Yamaha coulda put a tiny, high powered class D amp into this keyboard and pump out 50 watts or more rms (not peak) per channel. No amp needed for cafe gigs, plus no stereo to mono amp phase issues. No more chiropractor inducing amp schleps.

Hell, some of those teeny, tiny sonos spotify speakers that everyone has in their kitchen are waaay more powerful/loud than the 2x7 watt Yammys. just sayin...

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, D. Gauss said:

 

They shaved barely inch here or there, but it weighs the same, so it's a wash.  Ever hear how loud a Fishman Loudbox acoustic guitar mini amp can be? It's crazy, clean, clear, goodness in a super small box.  It's 2023, Yamaha coulda put a tiny, high powered class D amp into this keyboard and pump out 50 watts or more rms (not peak) per channel. No amp needed for cafe gigs, plus no stereo to mono amp phase issues. No more chiropractor inducing amp schleps.

Hell, some of those teeny, tiny sonos spotify speakers that everyone has in their kitchen are waaay more powerful/loud than the 2x7 watt Yammys. just sayin...

 

Well, the P145 saves you 1.5" of height (making it over 20% shorter), a bit over an inch of depth (so about 10% less deep), and a pound and a half of weight. I guess the compact Casios were doing well, and they wanted to get more competitive with that. But as for the Fishman, you can't expect them to put a $400 sound system into a $600 digital piano. A sound system like that could add over $300 to the cost of the board. And it's mono. It's also a 20 lb amp, so it's going to add substantial weight. If that's what you want, it would probably be better to buy the fishman and have two light pieces to move rather than one heavy one.

 

I recently picked up a Korg XE20... that's a pretty light board with surprisingly powerful speakers. It's not a tiny board, though.

[ElmerJFudd]

Peddling slim as a feature at the expense of key length.  I don’t get it.  I’ve never thought to myself, I wish they’d shave an inch of the depth of a digital piano.
 

I can see reducing length for carrying on your back, fitting across the back seat of a compact car, squeezing between the dresser and the door jamb.  But not having any controllers on the left does that.  So does offering a 76/73 variant - neither affects the ability to trigger notes across the playing surface of the keys.  
 

It is what it is. One will have to spend a bit more if action is a priority.  
 

This reviewer says they didn’t shave key length but I suspect he means visible part of the keys.  We’ll have to wait for it to arrive in the shops to see how their action redesign behaves. 
 

 

 

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I can see reducing length for carrying on your back, fitting across the back seat of a compact car, squeezing between the dresser and the door jamb.  But not having any controllers on the left does that.  So does offering a 76/73 variant - neither affects the ability to trigger notes across the playing surface of the keys.  

+1. As I've said previously, I'd love to see a "deeper" 73/76 board with enough unused top-panel to allow me to rest an upstairs board there.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Adan]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

+1. As I've said previously, I'd love to see a "deeper" 73/76 board with enough unused top-panel to allow me to rest an upstairs board there.

 

From a weight/portability standpoint, it would make more sense to build that capability into the keyboard stand.  All it would take is a stand that's deep enough, with adjustable height pillars at the rear.  I've used a chicken-wired version of that for many years.  It's been essential to my rigs.  But it's cumbersome to adjust -- any height adjustment is a 10 minute operation.  I wish a manufacturer would tackle this, but it's highly unlikely.

 

The P 121/125 was a nice option for low cost/very portable.  The action felt a bit lifeless, not great dynamics.  If Yamaha has improved on that in the 225, that would be a nice bit of progress.  

 

Not much point in pre-judging what the action is going to feel like.  We just need to play it . . .

[D. Gauss]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Well, the P145 saves you 1.5" of height (making it over 20% shorter), a bit over an inch of depth (so about 10% less deep), and a pound and a half of weight. I guess the compact Casios were doing well, and they wanted to get more competitive with that. But as for the Fishman, you can't expect them to put a $400 sound system into a $600 digital piano. A sound system like that could add over $300 to the cost of the board. And it's mono. It's also a 20 lb amp, so it's going to add substantial weight. If that's what you want, it would probably be better to buy the fishman and have two light pieces to move rather than one heavy one.

 

I recently picked up a Korg XE20... that's a pretty light board with surprisingly powerful speakers. It's not a tiny board, though.

 

maybe my math sucks, but in my calcs, weight diff between current 125 and new replacement 225 is a miniscule 0.635 lbs lighter. big woop.  i assume it still has the same crappy organs, since not one demo played an organ sound. progress.

 

[stoken6]

13 hours ago, LarsHarner2 said:

How different is the key length compared to the P-125? 

Looking at the spec pages for both boards it looks like about 27mm (268mm vs 295mm).

 

Cheers, Mike.

[stoken6]

3 hours ago, Adan said:

From a weight/portability standpoint, it would make more sense to build that capability into the keyboard stand. 

And I've done that with my stands. But it adds to the "long dimension" of the stand (i.e. its height) which makes it that much more cumbersome to transport. My keyboard stand fits between the wheel arches in my car, but add my "chicken wire" rear support tiers, and it has to fit behind them. Which is where my boards need to go, because of their length.

 

I'm hoping that "a board in a a deeper box containing only extra air" doesn't add too much to the overall weight. But I guess it depends on the construction material/technique.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

5 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Peddling slim as a feature at the expense of key length.  I don’t get it.  I’ve never thought to myself, I wish they’d shave an inch of the depth of a digital piano.

 

Casio gambled on slimness being a big selling factor, and my guess is, the gamble paid off in sales, so Yamaha wants to grab some of that.

 

57 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

 

maybe my math sucks, but in my calcs, weight diff between current 125 and new replacement 225 is a miniscule 0.635 lbs lighter. big woop.  i assume it still has the same crappy organs, since not one demo played an organ sound. progress.

 

True, 5/8 of a pound is not much, but it's not necessarily unnoticeable, especially if the distribution of the weight is different (as it is likely to be in the smaller chassis). But no, that weight difference would not be much of a temptation to prefer it over the P125. I agree that's it's not really a selling point over the P-125, I don't think the goal was to make it 5/8 lb lighter, but I think a goal was to make it smaller in height and depth, and having done that, yeah, it's going to end up a bit lighter as well. Regardless, I think its biggest advantage over the P125 should be the sound quality of the piano, it's the CFX piano sample with key-off samples and a VRM implementation.