Keyboard-Clueless Sound Techs (rant)

[Baldwin Funster]

2 hours ago, miden said:

And would this also happen to John, Joel et al?? Don't think so...sound guys would be sacked on the spot!

Hmmm. I thought I worked for the sound guy. At least that's their attitude. They're pretty good at sending an intimidating vibe that you better set levels where they want OR ELSE .

[stoken6]

10 hours ago, The Real MC said:

be conscious of space during singing (even playing NOTHING)

The greatest arrangement technique ever. To pick an example at random: Andy Fraser didn't play at all in the verses of All Right Now.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[vonnor]

16 hours ago, The Real MC said:

... If the sole guitar player is playing a solo, I'm fill in his rhythm parts so it doesn't sound empty.

Always. Even if the sole player plays a solo on a soul song.

[vonnor]

Best advice in this thread so far:

1. Roll off the lows (75hz? 110hz?). What's the best high-pass break point? Likely depends on where the PA x-over is set for the subs?
2. Go easy on the 'verb.
3. Always keep some vol in your back pocket. Can be an issue if the FOH tech flirts with the red on your input gain?

~ vonnor

[Delaware Dave]

We just did an outdoor concert last night to 2500 people.  Several people came up to me at the end of the show and said the sound was incredible, every voice could be heard, every instrument was crystal clear.  I passed the info to the soundman.  I heard some of the video this morning (facebook recordings); absolutely the best audio i've ever heard from a live set, perfectly balanced and crystal clear.

 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

1 hour ago, vonnor said:

Best advice in this thread so far:

 

...Always keep some vol in your back pocket. Can be an issue if the FOH tech flirts with the red on your input gain?

~ vonnor

That red light adds some crunch to your solo and helps it cut.

[MathOfInsects]

2 hours ago, vonnor said:

Best advice in this thread so far:

1. Roll off the lows (75hz? 110hz?). What's the best high-pass break point? Likely depends on where the PA x-over is set for the subs?
2. Go easy on the 'verb.
3. Always keep some vol in your back pocket. Can be an issue if the FOH tech flirts with the red on your input gain?

~ vonnor

It just depends. 110 is fine to start with, that's two A's below Middle C. During soundcheck if you hear yourself hit the subs, either ask the soundtech to hi-pass you more or keep playing whatever note you heard hit the subs and raise your own hi-pass until it's north of the crossover. Same in the opposite direction--you can give yourself more and more on the bottom until it hits the subs. A little junk in the trunk is nice for effect but you don't want that constant bwomp bwomp every time you happen to root out your chords with your LH. 

I almost always start a gig with no verb on anything (bread and butter-wise) and then nudge it up here and there when a sound wants a little diffusion. It's far more common on synth sounds, a nice tail can make the sound (and who doesn't like a nice tail?). You'll basically never solo with much verb on anything, though. You'll be lost practically no matter how high they pump you out front, which will be not at all.

I use the FC7 and grab that extra headroom for solos. It's also my expression pedal for the organ, so organ solos are usually just a volume knob move. I was using a clean boost pedal for awhile but found it inelegant, which is a fancy word for what was probably my own ineptness, another fancy word that means I suck. I just didn't like that CRACK sound as I clicked it on and off.

But if the soundtech is at all on the ball, your solo will be pumped out front anyway, after your first few wasted notes when they figure out it's not the guitar or sax player this time. So if you push your volume up, you are going to F him over a bit, and next time he's going to be MUCH slower on the draw with that slider when you solo. 

It won't matter anyway, because everyone's videos of the band while you are soloing will be close-ups on the guitar player.



 

[BEMcCut]

  A few years ago I asked our sound guy to record our show. I had a Zoom recorder and we used the xls inputs direct from the FOA board plus the external mics. The next day I replayed the recording you could hear all vocals, guitar, drums bass. Everything but the keyboards. I made copies for everyone including the  the soundman. Everyone said where are the keys? The sound guy said he could hear them all night.

[Moonglow]

10 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

But if the soundtech is at all on the ball, your solo will be pumped out front anyway, after your first few wasted notes when they figure out it's not the guitar or sax player this time.

For sure. One of my bands played Rosanna the other night. We all know that big synth brass lead needs to be front and center. Listening to the recording, it was practically nonexistent. The sound guy managed to raise the level just in time for those descending flute-bell lines. It actually sounded like that’s where the keys solo was supported to start.  

[The Real MC]

On 7/6/2023 at 9:28 AM, vonnor said:

Roll off the lows (75hz? 110hz?). What's the best high-pass break point? Likely depends on where the PA x-over is set for the subs?

 

I'd argue that a 150hz high pass is ideal.

 

Quote

Go easy on the 'verb.

 

I almost never use reverbs with tails.  I found that short ambient reverbs are more effective.  Plenty of good plate and hall reverbs but good ambient reverbs are few and far between.

 

Quote

Always keep some vol in your back pocket. Can be an issue if the FOH tech flirts with the red on your input gain?

 

As long as the FOH tech knows you toggle between rhythm and solo volumes, he'll make it work.  I believe in making his job easier.

[vonnor]

3 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

 

I'd argue that a 150hz high pass is ideal.

 

I just picked up a mixer with adjustable low cut - how tight should I roll it at 150? 12db? 24? 18?

 

~ vonnor

[The Real MC]

3 minutes ago, vonnor said:

I just picked up a mixer with adjustable low cut - how tight should I roll it at 150? 12db? 24? 18?

18dB/oct

[Piktor]

Lots of good familiar tips here. Just one more trick: If you have to, make a big deal of your opening phrase on a solo - high end of the keyboard, stand up, play a cluster of notes with your seat…oops, got carried away. Do something to get the new sound person’s attention. 
 

It certainly helps if everyone in the band, including a sound person, has pretty much the same concept about what kind of sound you are trying to create. The originals projects that I was in had the most success in that regard. In good situations, we’d all be thinking of painting the same picture. 
Though I rarely performed any Deep Purple material, sometimes with a one-off sound engineer I would tell them to think of the group as something like DP, just so they would crank the organ up. That did not always work. 

[MathOfInsects]

150 is roughly the D below middle C. It's not an uncommon starting point for low-end roll-off on keys, it can just be a little disorienting if you're not used to it. You'll definitely notice the lack of energy by the time you get to, say, the G below that C. You'll set to 18db per octave, and that is quite significant by the time you're at that next D. Unless you're really used to leaving your LH TF off those keys, it can be a mind-F for awhile. Try some options from 150 down, and then remember that you'll ideally be adjusting that threshold for the gig based on when you hear those low notes hit the subs. The other nice thing about the hi-pass is you will find that you cut more, so will be easier for soundhumans to manage, and this sometimes means you'll be mixed better in general.

"Sometimes."

[vonnor]

Not likely to be disorienting for me, as the only output I'll apply the low roll-off to will be my send to FOH. The other guys who run keys in their wedges/ears likely won't care or even notice. I'll try to get the sound-tech's (the guy in the O.P) attention for a keys-only sound check with my finger on the cut-off freq knob so he can tell me where the rumble starts hitting the subs. The Diva "Jump" patch will be a good test.

 

I thank everyone for the great tips!

 

~ Bill C. (vonnor)

[ProfD]

Great refresher thread especially for KB players who find themselves playing in bands with little or no appreciation for keys. 

 

If the sound person is a musician, some of them tend to be partial to [insert their instrument here] especially guitar and drums.😁

 

A sound person who prefers bands and music from the 1970s...bless their heart.🤣

 

A sound engineer who has an appreciation for music will strive to provide a great mix and even better if they are familiar with the band and/or their songs. 

 

Communication goes a long way up and down the chain which includes whoever is running sound.

 

A band should work as team insuring that every that member can be heard whether it's in rehearsal or onstage. Dynamics are just as important as learning the songs.

 

I'm beginning to have less sympathy for KB players who subject themselves to playing in bands where they schlep more gear than anybody else only to have it sound like they're playing 2nd fiddle either onstage or FOH or on the video.

 

Too many KB players have a reputation for coming across as nerds or soft. While I'm not suggesting a gym membership or boxing lessons...incorporate some Twisted Sister into your mojo.

 

Otherwise, that KB player as 8th chair, passive-aggressive sh8t isn't going to work especially with wannabe Rock stars or those who've already crashed and burned or never lifted off.

 

Talk to the band and sound people. Let them know you've brought $8k worth of gear to a $100 paying gig and gotd8mnit...you want everyone to hear it.🤣😎

[Bobbo Fett]

My all time favorite sound douche (sorry, I meant DUDE) interaction:

I was playing with my 50's and 60's band in some podunk town in southern Illinois. Because several of the opening acts ran long we were going to be really crunched for time. I went to the guy before we set up and said, "listen, I know we're gonna be tight, so if you don't care I'll set up my own monitor, and you won't have to worry about it". He gave me kind af a sideways glance and said, "Sure. Sounds fine". We get set up and we're doing a sound check. The guy is talking to us through the monitors, asking for drums, bass, guitar.....when he gets to me he says, "And now, the most important person in the band....THE KEYBOARD PLAYER!" All because I must have yanked him out of his little routine by offering to help, or something. I'm gonna admit....I should have let it go, but I lost my bearing for a minute. I exited the stage and walked back to the sound board and said, "Dude, what the hell is your problem? All I did was try to help you out, for Christ sake!" We exchanged a few more pleasntries about each other's mothers and I went back up on stage. Wanna guess where I was in the mix that night?

[Reezekeys]

Is it possible the sound man interpreted "if you don't care I'll set up my own monitor, and you won't have to worry about it" as "I don't think you're very good at your job"? Egos and all that...

[Bobbo Fett]

Just now, Reezekeys said:

I'm gonna guess the sound man interpreted "if you don't care I'll set up my own monitor, and you won't have to worry about it" as "I don't think you're very good at your job."

And as it turns out.......

[Reezekeys]

Ha ha, busted on my "insta-edit"... I often wind up thinking I need to correct myself after I post something!

[Bobbo Fett]

2 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Is it possible the sound man interpreted "if you don't care I'll set up my own monitor, and you won't have to worry about it" as "I don't think you're very good at your job"? Egos and all that...

I;m sure it's possible, but I've been to a few more rodeos than this guy has (I'm basing that on our relative ages) and I KNEW he was going to be up against it just to get the basics done on time.....

[Reezekeys]

8 minutes ago, Bobbo Fett said:

I've been to a few more rodeos than this guy has (I'm basing that on our relative ages) and I KNEW he was going to be up against it just to get the basics done on time.....

 

Yea I have to admit, when I see a person half my age doing sound I assume there's a greater chance of things not going well! I've been proven right many times.

[stoken6]

If sound is run by the venue, or by someone I don't know, I try and become their friend quickly. "Hi, good to meet you, I'm Mike - playing keys. Can I get you a drink?"

 

Cheers, Mike.

[cphollis]

Alternative view?

 

I can't always control or influence who's doing sound for us.  A while back, I decided to "own" our stage mix, and give FOH much less to do.  

 

That means we use our own stage mixer, have our mix pre-dialed in, use IEMs, rehearse with it, etc.  We show up and we're ready to sound good.  Ideally, the FOH would have to adjust for band volume and EQ -- and very little else.  I explain what we've done to our sound tech for the event, and they are always good with it.  Less work for them.

 

During the show, I'm auditing the FOH mix from time to time from my keys position.  Also helps me fit into the mix as I would like to.

 

Not everyone's cup of tea, but now I never complain about keyboard levels, sound techs, PA systems, etc.

[stoken6]

11 hours ago, cphollis said:

Ideally, the FOH would have to adjust for band volume and EQ -- and very little else.  I explain what we've done to our sound tech for the event, and they are always good with it.  Less work for them.

Chuck, do you hand FoH a pair of XLRs for house L/R and nothing else?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[MathOfInsects]

Hmmm. I am having a hard time envisioning a scenario where a soundtech would actually be "good with it." It would be analogous to getting hired to be a keyboard player for a band, then showing up and being told that all your parts are going to be tracks, but don't worry, the drummer will be controlling them and making sure they sound good. Maybe you'd figure there's nothing you can do now, but I can't imagine that you'd be actually "good with it."

Not all "less work" is created the same. Whatever people hear out front is going to be assumed to be the work of the soundtech, just as those tracks would be assumed to be you, so he or she would want some control over what's heard. It is very hard to effectively mix a band from within the environment of the stage, particularly with IEMs in. All rooms are different, and the sound is VERY different from the vantage point of the board than from behind the keys on stage. 

 

Not to mention different mic'ing for the instruments in different rooms, quirks of the sound system there, and so on. If anything, I think this could actually make the soundtech's job harder, since he or she would have to mix solely via master volume and EQ alone. This sounds like potentially a nightmare scenario for them, to be honest.

Could you maybe use your board for the IEM mixes, and then either have the soundtech do his or her job, or else bring someone to run the sound from out front, where others will be hearing it from?

 

[cphollis]

13 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Chuck, do you hand FoH a pair of XLRs for house L/R and nothing else?

 

Cheers, Mike.

Most of the time, yes.  They also can have one of my mixing surfaces if they talk pretty to me.

[vonnor]

I picked up a new audio interface/mixer and set up the low cut on the output to FOH. Per the advice here 130Hz cutoff and 18dB/oct. I also went through all my patches and dialed back any reverb by 50% or more. I definitely noticed the difference in my home setup running thru my CP-8 (QSC). You could hear the low "rumble" really fade as I slid the cutoff. 130Hz seemed to be a sweet-spot. Will adjust as needed at sound-check.

 

I should be good to go for Friday gig.

 

~ vonnor 

[Delaware Dave]

have you tried 110hz?  👽

 

https://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1177122/pg1

 

[vonnor]

1 hour ago, Delaware Dave said:

have you tried 110hz?  👽

 

https://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1177122/pg1

 

Oh for Pete's sake...