Our experience with Kiesel - NEVER AGAIN!

[LoInAz]

Hi all,

 

 

I need to share with the world what my husband and I just went through with Kiesel guitars. I pray that NO ONE ever has to go through what we did with Kiesel!

 

My husband is a guitarist and bought his first Carvin (back in 1981). So for his birthday, I wanted him to 'build' out his dream guitar. Immediately he wanted a Kiesel. As his wife, I said, "Buy what you want, you deserve it." So he built all out and placed the order. 

 

I am not a guitar person but rather a wife that truly loves her husband more than anything. And to know that I was able to purchase him a custom guitar that he was so excited about meant the world to me. However, Kiesel not only ruined his birthday but also broke my heart. The look of utter disappointment on his face, when he opened a guitar that was not his, was gut-wrenching. That look I will never be able to unsee.

 

~14-16 weeks later he got notice that his guitar was done and was to arrive in a few days. Seriously the look of excitement on his face was everything to me. It arrived on 6/22 in the early afternoon and since we live in Arizona, we let it rest in the box for about 4 hours to allow it to acclimate to the ambient temp in our house. I recorded him opening up the box. Again, as a wife, seeing his excitement melted my heart.

 

But that all changed... When he opened up the interior box he found that the guitar was in a soft case (he ordered a soft case). He was a bit bummed but said, “It’s okay, that’s an easy fix for them.” But then he opened up the soft case and his look of absolute excitement like a child on Christmas morning went to immediate disappointment. They sent him the wrong guitar. I equate his look and feel to the movie ‘A Christmas Story’ when Ralphie wants the red rider bb gun and gets the bunny suit instead.

 

So he called Kiesel. He told Flock what happened and Flock said, “Oh! YOU got the white guitar!?”. So then knew they sent him the wrong guitar but they never called us or called FedEx to stop the delivery? Then Flock said, “You need to email Albert.” I’m sorry but Kiesel screwed up and we have to email someone there to fix this?

 

Now we’re all human, mistakes happen. So my husband emailed Albert and that’s when it went south. Brandon in Customer Service got involved. Our thoughts were that my husband’s guitar was sent out to someone else and we thought some ‘stranger’ was playing HIS guitar. He voiced his concerns to Kiesel. They did show that wasn’t the fact but that his guitar was done and sitting in the shop. It ‘had’ been done.

 

Brandon, whether he’s new or not, kept calling in the wrong Fed-Ex pickups. He would give ground returns for an express pickup. Doesn’t work that way. Twice this happened. Twice Fed-Ex showed up and said, “You have the wrong type label. That’s for ground. We can take the box but it’ll get thrown into the back of the truck and when we do get the right label we can ship it back.” Yeah – sorry but if we would have followed through with that, and it mysteriously got lost or stolen, WE would have been liable for it. No, thank you. Since Kiesel could not do the simple task of scheduling a correct pickup, we had to call Fed Ex and use the ground label Kiesel called in to schedule a ground pickup on 6/27.

 

This whole time, we kept asking Kiesel when they were shipping his guitar as they charged our CC on 6/26 for close $3750. Remember, they said it was completed and ready to go and showed him pictures of it.

 

I asked Brandon this on the phone and he said, “Oh, we’re not going to ship out his guitar until we get confirmation that Fed-Ex picked up.” So yes, they were holding his guitar hostage, a guitar he paid for BECAUSE THEY SCREWED up multiple times. They were projecting their failures onto us by charging us for a product and then refusing to pay for it.

 

When this was conveyed to me (on speaker phone), my husband emailed Jeff at Kiesel and others. Jeff as well stated the same thing. They refused to ship out our guitar until they got theirs back. 

 

Seriously Kiesel??? If they honestly thought we were going to keep it, why in the hell do you think we’d ever call them in the first place, speak with Brandon countless times, speak with Chris the salesman and Flock telling them to come to get this guitar out of my house and even go so far to schedule a pickup ourselves with Fed-Ex? Seriously… the very thought of that is highly offensive and insulting!

 

I, too, emailed Jeff (the VP) and Mark (the President) at Kiesel telling them exactly how I found Jeff’s actions absolutely deplorable and unethical. I’m not a lawyer but if I purchase a product, pay for the product in full, and then the company refuses to send me my product… is that theft, fraud, or deception?

 

To date, neither my husband nor I have had any response from Mark or Jeff (other than Jeff’s only email saying he wasn’t sending out our guitar). ZERO phone calls. NOTHING. This is NOT how you operate a company. 

 

To boot – not once did we ask for compensation or the like. The ONLY thing I asked Brandon on 6/23 was could my husband get a T-shirt as I would happily post a pic of him wearing it with his new guitar. This was well before we knew Kiesel was refusing to send us our guitar.

 

And to have Kiesel treat us like thieves for their continual failures and mistakes is unforgivable. They had every chance to remediate this yet apparently, we’re just another number in the X number of guitars they create every year. They had every opportunity to make this right yet they were so consumed with greed that they failed to do the right and honorable thing.

 

Their company says, “We're not just a brand, we're a family.” If that’s true, I’d hate to see how they treat non-family members.

 

It’s not the issue that we were sent the wrong guitar as I stated. Mistakes happen and it could have been perhaps caught in transit by their staff but we are all human. Kiesel wronged us by holding his guitar hostage.

 

On Tuesday, 6/28 my husband wrote the entire company stating that given how horrible we were treated, the refusal to ship out a paid-for guitar, and the nightmare we were forced to endure from their continual failures he wanted a full refund. That they were to not ship the guitar. If it was in transit (but it wasn’t as again they refused to send out a product we paid for), we would reject it from Fed-Ex as it was signature required.

Brandon stated that they have issued a full refund. Now it can take up to 10 days however I still see nothing pending.

 

Again, even with all of that, not a single word from Mark or Jeff. They may create the best guitars in the world but we will NEVER EVER buy anything from them again. If a company imposes its failures onto you, implies that you’re a thief, AND holds your paid-for merchandise hostage they are not a company I will never, EVER support.

 

And yes, I’m more than happy to share the email threads, the videos, and the documentation.

 

Just because you build a fantastic product doesn’t make you a good company. When you practice so unethically and treat your customers as sh*t, you are a FAILURE of a company.

 

 

[Larryz]

@LoInAz, Welcome aboard the forum! It is too bad your best effort to get a dream guitar for your husband on a special occasion did not happen. I hope your experience will help others decide whether or not to order from that company. On the bright side, I hope your $3,700 refund credit will still buy him a custom guitar from a different company that will help ease the pain...good luck and good hunting! 😎👍

[Scott Fraser]

And if you find they haven't issued you the refund you can take it up with your credit card company to rescind your payment. That can also take a long time, but they will go to bat for you & they have a lot more clout than Kiesel. Best wishes for a good outcome.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Man, have they fallen since Jeff took over!

 

I know lots of happy Carvin owners, and one thing they all pointed out was the quality of the customer service.

 

But since Carvin became Kiesel, there’s been a steady stream of people complaining about how they were treated by CustServ.  Some have even named certain personnel in particular as being unprofessional.

 

I’m sorry you’ve had this experience.

 

When I bought my first 2 electrics, I went with Dean.  One was a Special Select EVO (a mid-level LP clone) and the other was a Time Capsule Cadillac (expensive limited edition).  Like you, one of the ones they sent the wrong one- the Caddy.  
 

But instead of holding mine hostage like in your situation, Dean delivered the correct guitar via personal delivery by the regional sales rep.  (They even offered me a discount on the incorrect Caddy, but there was no way I could afford it.)

[Winston Psmith]

I'll keep this one short . . .

 

Not long ago, my bandmate ordered a little battery-powered Amp as a present for me. Nothing fancy, an entry-level mass-market product, under $100US.

 

The Amp was DOA, due to leaking batteries, so I wrote the company, to let them know. I was put in touch with a real person, who made certain that I got a working Amp, though it took more than one replacement. All this, like I said, for a product that sells for under $100US on the retail market. Some companies want to keep us happy, I guess.

 

That line about, "Oh, you got the White Guitar?" is really the key. More than one responsible person knew they'd shipped the wrong Guitar, and instead of getting in touch to make things right, they made it your problem to deal with. I have to wonder who's been waiting for that White Guitar, and if they've gotten a full refund, too? Hell of a way to run a custom-build shop.

[Sharkman]

I have a Carvin guitar and a Kiesel guitar, and I am very happy with both of them.  When I bought my Kiesel about five and a half years ago (I think), I dealt with Jeff Kiesel on the phone, and he treated me great.  It sounds like things have changed a lot since then.  That's a shame.  I don't know all the specific details in this situation, but from what I've read, it sure doesn't make Kiesel look very good.  I hope they (Kiesel) gets everything straightened out, because I would hate to see a fine company like that go down the tubes.

[CEB]

I would have been shocked but this sadly isn’t the first story like this I’ve heard about Carvin in recent years.  They were a great company 30-40 years ago.  

[lesmisaceventura]

Agree. It's a bummer to hear that they haven't been living up to their reputation lately. It's like they've lost their mojo or something. I mean, back in the day, they were the real deal, making waves in the music industry.

[Larryz]

I bought a lot of Carvin PA equipment about a decade ago, and it's still good equipment in like new condition.  I haven't played their guitars, but those that have purchased them, have written good reviews over the years.  I hate to see a good company go downhill in customer service...😎

[Scott Fraser]

14 hours ago, Larryz said:

I bought a lot of Carvin PA equipment about a decade ago, and it's still good equipment in like new condition.  I haven't played their guitars, but those that have purchased them, have written good reviews over the years.  I hate to see a good company go downhill in customer service...😎

I had some of their PA speakers & monitors, and snakes over the years. It was good, well built, middle of the road gear. Not high end, not cheap crap either. I no longer own PA equipment so I don't keep up with them as a sound system company.

My understanding is that after the company founder died, ownership passed to the two sons. One was more interested in guitars, the other in amps, electronics & speakers. So they split the company into Kiesel, maker of custom shop instruments, & Carvin, maker of amps & PA equipment. It's a real shame to hear about customer service problems at a formerly fine family owned non-corporate USA maker of music tools. Such a pity. I hope this was just an isolated incident of an employee having a bad day.

[desertbluesman]

I never had a Carvin anything or Keisel anything. I did go out and visit their retail location in Southern California when Carvin was still selling amps and guitars under the Carvin Brand name.

[Sharkman]

1 hour ago, Scott Fraser said:

I had some of their PA speakers & monitors, and snakes over the years. It was good, well built, middle of the road gear. Not high end, not cheap crap either. I no longer own PA equipment so I don't keep up with them as a sound system company.

My understanding is that after the company founder died, ownership passed to the two sons. One was more interested in guitars, the other in amps, electronics & speakers. So they split the company into Kiesel, maker of custom shop instruments, & Carvin, maker of amps & PA equipment. It's a real shame to hear about customer service problems at a formerly fine family owned non-corporate USA maker of music tools. Such a pity. I hope this was just an isolated incident of an employee having a bad day.

I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that the founder, Lowel Kiesel, had four sons, and he named the company Carvin after the first syllables of two sons, Carson and Vincent.  After Lowel's death, the company split into two separate companies, with Jeff and another brother whose name escapes me making guitars, while the other brothers stuck with the electronics under the name Carvin Audio.  Carvin Audio has gotten rid of a lot of their product line, most notably their guitar amplifiers.  I check out the Carvin Audio website every few months or so, just to see if they have anything new.  Neither company advertises in guitar Player anymore, although when Lowel was alive, they had at least one ad every month.

[Paul K]

I'm pretty sure a bankruptcy was involved.  I kick myself for not buying a BX500 bass amp head when they were on clearance; a silly good price but I was waiting to see what their Next Big Thing was going to be. 

[surfergirl]

 

1 hour ago, Paul K said:

I'm pretty sure a bankruptcy was involved.  I kick myself for not buying a BX500 bass amp head when they were on clearance; a silly good price but I was waiting to see what their Next Big Thing was going to be. 

I wish I'd have known, we just sold one a few months ago.

[Sharkman]

2 hours ago, Paul K said:

I'm pretty sure a bankruptcy was involved.  I kick myself for not buying a BX500 bass amp head when they were on clearance; a silly good price but I was waiting to see what their Next Big Thing was going to be. 

I just did an online search, and I could not find any evidence of Carvin Audio ever filing for bankruptcy.  If they did file Chapter 11, that would have explained a lot.  Instead, they left a lot of people baffled.

[picker]

Customer service seems to be the downfall of a lot of guitar companies these days. I understand wanting to totally avoid being taken to the cleaners by dishonest customers, but it's probably better to get stung a few times than to offend your entire customer base with overly draconian return and replacement policies. What it sounds like is Kiesel is trying to get the cheapest shipping rate possible, which of course is ground as opposed to air. If Jeff Kiesel doesn't know how to get the right kind of return label from Fed Ex, he needs to learn how, or hire someone who knows. I work in the mail room of my company, and I can attest that UPS and Fedex have some pretty arcane policies, but it's not rocket science. It sounds like they are trying to save pennies in shipping at the cost of dollars in customer satisfaction. I wonder how long it will be before they DO file chapter 11...

[Caevan O’Shite]

1 hour ago, picker said:

Customer service seems to be the downfall of a lot of guitar companies these days. I understand wanting to totally avoid being taken to the cleaners by dishonest customers, but it's probably better to get stung a few times than to offend your entire customer base with overly draconian return and replacement policies. What it sounds like is Kiesel is trying to get the cheapest shipping rate possible, which of course is ground as opposed to air. If Jeff Kiesel doesn't know how to get the right kind of return label from Fed Ex, he needs to learn how, or hire someone who knows. I work in the mail room of my company, and I can attest that UPS and Fedex have some pretty arcane policies, but it's not rocket science. It sounds like they are trying to save pennies in shipping at the cost of dollars in customer satisfaction. I wonder how long it will be before they DO file chapter 11...

Dude. Truth.

                                              
                 
 

[Dave Bryce]

On 7/22/2023 at 6:43 AM, picker said:

Customer service seems to be the downfall of a lot of guitar companies these days.

 

Fixed.

 

dB

[LoInAz]

So, it's been a minute since I've posted regarding Jeff Kiesel and Kiesel Guitar's poor customer service and business practices. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.

I wanted to give an update on my personal experience. We were rightly refunded our money. That was a no-brainer since we didn't receive the product we ordered.

I wanted to first give Kiesel the opportunity to respond. Maybe not publically, but possibly privately. Of course, doing a bit of Google research, I can see how that goes now. Only until it blows up big enough that Jeff Kiesel seems to feel the need to create an apology video tour on YouTube like he did in 2020 for lack of customer service. It looks like lip service to me based on my experience.

I'd like to first thank the board admins for allowing this post. I'm not a guitarist, my husband is, I merely tried to have a guitar built as a birthday gift. for him. It seems some other forums are in cahoots with Kiesel and took down my discussions like nothing ever happened. Apparently, Kiesel follows some of them as they saw my post. ...More on that in a bit.

My husband noticed the guitar he designed was for sale as an in-stock, notably quite a bit less than he paid since now, I guess they want to get rid of it. To be clear, he's never had it in person. The only guitar he did have in person was someone else's white guitar that Kiesel didn't know they shipped to us by mistake. Oddly enough, you'd think Kiesel would have stated to him, listen let's discount the guitar X amount due to our mistakes. ...this never happened. If someone didn't read my initial discussion, we immediately called Kiesel to let them know they shipped a white guitar to us that we didn't pay for nor did we order. We wanted to make sure that if the guitar was built for someone else, they needed to receive it. Yes, we are honest!

So... he figured, let's give them another chance...yes, apparently, he called them and spoke to the rep who helped him create the order. Telling me this...I honestly was a bit taken aback by his actions. He went on and stated to me he asked for a discount above what they are NOW asking for the guitar This was for all his time and aggregation they put him through. Mind you, he's never asked for anything but the guitar from the get-go. If Kiesel didn't screw up our transaction, then hold the guitar captive (though it was paid for in full), my husband would have a new guitar, and they would have made money...so he asked for a 150.00 discount for all of the hassle that Kiesel had put him through. When he told me this...I said you should have asked for more. It's less than a 2% discount. ...Truthfully, I'm not on board with his decision.

...So the rep stated, he'd have to get back to him by the next day. Biting my tongue, I again was not pleased but I respect my husband's decisions. My husband stated to me "You know what, maybe they will appreciate the call and figure they are losing a good customer... It's an opportunity for Kiesel to mend wounds realize their mistakes, and move on".

SO the next day came, I heard him talking on the phone and it was a lengthy discussion. He did not seem pleased. Apparently, because I told my Kiesel experience on forums, my husband can no longer purchase any guitar from Kiesel. Truthfully, I’m happy that none of our funds will ever go to the Kiesel Guitar Company. The rep told him the guitar could be purchased by a friend or someone else, but not him. Can you believe that! Because I voiced my experience and transaction, HIS account can no longer be used to make a purchase for their products. It seems that Jeff needs to reevaluate his actions. He had an open opportunity to rectify a transaction, make money, make a bad experience, better...move on and complete a sale... yet his action appear juvenile.

It's apparent from reading other bad customer experiences, Jeff Kiesel has not learned from his mistakes. I'm sure there are good transactions occurring, but I would not want to take the change again with Kiesel. Based on my personal experience, I cannot give any good recommendations due to my Kiesel experience. My husband still gets a guitar for his birthday which obviously is late. It will be another guitar manufacturer. One that takes pride in their service their product and their customer experiences.

Purchases are made many times by word of mouth and customer satisfaction. When I think of a Mercedes or a Ferrari, I think of excellence. Though I’m not a guitarist, when I now hear the name, Kiesel, my thoughts are not positive in any way, shape, or form!

He's looking now at Anderson, McNaught, or Suhr.

[Caevan O’Shite]

3 hours ago, LoInAz said:

It seems some other forums are in cahoots with Kiesel and took down my discussions like nothing ever happened. Apparently, Kiesel follows some of them as they saw my post.

Apparently, because I told my Kiesel experience on forums, my husband can no longer purchase any guitar from Kiesel. Truthfully, I’m happy that none of our funds will ever go to the Kiesel Guitar Company. The rep told him the guitar could be purchased by a friend or someone else, but not him. Can you believe that! Because I voiced my experience and transaction, HIS account can no longer be used to make a purchase for their products.

THAT is OUTRAGEOUS. That just might be the very worst Customer ABUSE and Disservice that I've ever heard about! Up there with and perhaps even worse than TC Electronic.    What draconian turd goblins.

That goes for these so-called forums that are essentially making themselves accessories to this travesty. What forums were these? Please inform us...

[Joe Muscara]

4 hours ago, LoInAz said:

Apparently, because I told my Kiesel experience on forums, my husband can no longer purchase any guitar from Kiesel.

What's funny is, neither your name nor your husband's is on your posts. And, if Kiesel made the whole thing right in the end, did it in a way that made you happy as well as your husband, you'd probably come back and say they did that. Stuff happens, problem solved. Instead, they've banned you guys as customers because you told people about your problems with them. Sometimes, dealing with a smaller company is worse when they're like that. I doubt a Fender or Gibson would be banning customers from buying from them, y'know? (I always chuckle when a company promotes that they're a family-owned business. I've worked for some businesses that were owned or run by family members and it was horrible. One had siblings that fought like a married couple, in front of everybody.)

 

My old college roommate is a guitar player and bought a Kiesel a few years ago. I think he still loves it. Sorry your husband didn't get to love his.

[Larryz]

@LoInAz, Negative reviews of products and services by a company should be welcomed on forums just as they are for those with positive reviews.  It would have been nice to reach a compromise and for the guitar to get into the hands of the customer.  I appreciate hearing that the company made a full refund. It sounds like you can still get the guitar at a reduced price by having a friend purchase it for you.  It's not a good way for companies to do business IMHO.  I would just walk away and deal with a different company...  😎

 

[whitefang]

I've never had to deal with anything like that with any company.  But for me,the only extra money I'd have invested in all this would have been an attorney's retainer.

 

Whitefang

[whitefang]

Y'know.... My younger daughter told me a few hours after I got offline yesterday of having a similar experience, but not with anything to do with a guitar maker.  She engaged the flooring company EMPIRE Flooring to do the floors in her condo.  They did good on the living room floors, but botched the kitchen floor and is giving her grief about coming out to straighten it out.  Telling her they'll be out on a certain day and time to start work and then not showing up.  And customer service giving her the same kind of runaround you seem to be getting.  Must be the new "pandemic" affecting many other companies I hear other people gripe about lately.  From car repair, home repair and wrong or damaged items being sent to those I know who regularly shop online. 

 

Whitefang

[Dannyalcatraz]

This is astonishing bad customer care.  Screwing up and then banning the customer who complained about the screwup?  😡😡😡 I mean…words fail.

 

I don’t know your budget or current emotional status on this situation, but if you want, I’ll be happy to suggest other manufacturers with custom shops or even small luthiers who could deliver you & your guitar-playing spouse a great guitar with the desired specs- or damn close.  And I’m sure others here could & would as well.

[JohnH]

Absolutely inexcusable customer service. I have somehow lost my records of my custom build with Carvin and I was thinking of contacting them to see if they had info. I don't have any hope they could find me in the system at this point. I can't believe i lost that and I can't find any emails or anything. It's just that if I ever want to replicate the guitar I have it would be difficult without the info. God forbid anything happens to it, it's incredible and I spent a lot of time on the specs I wanted.  I am usually better at keeping records, maybe there's something in a box around here, I just haven't looked. My experience was excellent, but this was also back when they had retail stores. I am sure there are a lot of custom build companies that will make one for you and do way better than this in the future.

[Joe Muscara]

I must admit, I sort of understand Kiesel's point about getting the white guitar back from the OP and her husband. It could be worth as much as the OP's guitar, and they had a customer waiting for it who presumably paid for it, so they were in a similar situation. But you go out of your way to make it right. And even though you were very upset with them and told them so, you still do that. You stay cool, and do everything you can to make your unhappy customers put this past them and be happy with the purchase. You might grumble in private about them, but never publicly. And if it does seem like it's for the best to sever the relationship and refund the money, you don't ban them from buying from you unless it's clearly a situation where this customer is just bad business, they keep causing trouble, every purchase is an attempt to be mad at you, etc. Heck, I'd like to think that if it were me, when your husband told them he didn't want the guitar anymore and to refund the money, I would have called him and tried to talk him down from it. Kiesel screwed up several times with you, they should have gone out of their way to make sure you knew that they knew and were trying to fix it. They are small enough that the CEO or whatever could have been running around the shop making sure you were taken care of.

 

You can't run a good business with a bad temper, but it sounds like Kiesel has one.

[skipclone 1]

Wow, just wow. So sorry for this, and moreover sorry for the damage to the idea of reaching out|
beyond what's in your area to get your dream instrument. 

[hnovi]

There is a ton of text to follow fully, but it sounds like some hourly workers messed up, which is entirely possible.... If someone waits for so many weeks for the guitar, why dynamite the situation due to errors by hourly workers who are probably bored and can't wait to get home? The guy can't send the right guitar; why would we expect him to print the correct label? This is when you realize you must tame your expectations, lead the hourly worker through the process and get what you need. The escalation seems over the top causing unnecessary results. In the end, everyone is frustrated, and the husband is disappointed even more because he could have had the guitar for the long run, and now that is not possible... If I were waiting for Kiesel for so many weeks and could not get it because my wife is all over the forums, I'd be pretty upset... This is not a problem with the company IMHO. As far as the management is concerned, they have a right to fire the customer they want. This is the USA...

[surfergirl]

So let my get this straight, you are blaming the hourly workers. I'm an hourly worker, my boyfriend is an hourly worker, most of my friends are hourly workers. So IMO blaming the hourly workers is a bunch of crap. Without us no company could exist and owners couldn't amass more wealth.

Welcome to the forum.