last-minute recommendations, RCF speakers!

[Stokely]

I did a fair amount of research and for my occasional speaker/wedge use--occasional being a key word spending-wise, as I won't be using this every gig--I've settled on a choice between two lower/mid range RCF speakers.  I have the gig money in pocket, no keyboards on the GAS list, and while I've heard good things about Altos and other cheaper speakers, it's usually qualified with "for the price".  If I *was* using this for every gig, I'd consider spending more, but I forsee still using in-ears at a lot of gigs, primarily the ones where 1) we run sound and 2) I am too close to a drum set for comfort.

The two are the RCF HD10-a and RCF ART910-a.   A single 10 inch will be fine as I don't play bass.  Clarity is what I'm after.

The ART has a larger driver, more power, and (to me) looks a bit cleaner and nicer.   I don't intend to be cranking these up though, or using them to do anything but monitor, so more throw and more volume may not really be a benefit for me.  Won't hurt, certainly.   And you never know, I could hit a situation where I do need more volume though I try to avoid such situations.

 

I'll be getting a cover for either, as the RCF covers allow you to keep them on while using them so the looks thing isn't really a big deal.
 

Sweetwater will give me a modest discount on each and it comes out a fair bit below the QSC 10.2s my band uses (and which sound nice to me).

I'm leaning toward the ART, with the "buy once, cry once" thought in my head, but realistically both of these are lower-end speakers and probably not all that different.  I'm just curious whether anyone has used either, or both of these, and definitely if anyone has had reliability issues I'd love to hear about it.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

The 910A retails at $749 so also similar in price to the DXR8 or DXR10 which you should also be able to find a discount on. Why are the QSCs $200 more, I have no idea. But I’m curious if anyone has used the RCF 910A for piano and what they think. 

[Stokely]

I did consider the DXR series and certainly those are an option.  I may go back to my rep and see what he can do.

Part of my preference for RCFs was using one at a restaurant that provided wedges...it sounded fantastic and I was surprised as I was not up on the brand.  I thought it might be some ebay special (like my crappy Podium Pros that this will be replacing, also mine are huge and heavy 12" ones.)   That said, I can't recall if the one I used was plastic or perhaps a higher-end wood model so this fixation may be a bit misguided!  They had pretty good gear in that place so it may have been something further up the model line.

Downside of the RCFs (here in the states at least) is simply less people using them, for keys especially.  So I'd love to know as well!  Piano is definitely the hardest keyboard sound for these speakers to reproduce IMO.

Whatever I get, I'll be taking it over the bandleader's place and comparing with the QSC 10.2s and maybe even a cheaper CP10 (or cp12, can't recall) that he has.

[Stokely]

I was afraid of that   

I think if I used these more often that would be an easier jump for me.   Hearing "night and day" gets me thinking though.  Maybe muddle through with my Podium Pros and save my pennies.   That said, it's "only" for a personal monitor and not for the room so my standards are a bit less, accordingly.   A bit...having used a ton of bad amps and speakers I don't want to do it anymore either.  You tend to overplay and turn up a bunch of mud in a fruitless attempt to hear what you are doing!

I was pretty happy with the QSC k10.2 when I tried them but then I haven't tried anything up a tier or two.  Like coffee or beer or a lot of things, you can be happy with "ok" until you get some good stuff! lol

[stoken6]

@Stokely - one way to resolve your dilemma is to set a budget. Stick to it absolutely 100% strictly. And audition the usual suspects. Yamaha, Electrovoice, RCF, HK Audio, JBL, FBT etc. Dave Ferris's recommendation ofthe Yamaha DXR is worth heeding.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Stokely]

I don't have a lot of confidence local stores will have RCF.  I can probably compare Yamaha dxr to qsc, I expect both of those they'd have.

When evaluating speakers, do you guys bring in your instrument, or maybe a reference recording (as I might use in mixing)?  The only speakers I've ever bought were online or so long ago I don't remember what I did  

[Al Quinn]

I had a great experience shopping for speakers at a DJ store. I recorded myself playing my keyboard (I.e., Nord Stage 2) and played the recording from my iPhone through many of their speakers. They were all setup and working. I heard Yamaha, RCF, JBL, EV, Alto, Mackie, and QSC. 

[Stokely]

Hah, didn't know there was such a thing as a DJ store.  Shows you what I know!

[jazzpiano88]

39 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

I had a great experience shopping for speakers at a DJ store. I recorded myself playing my keyboard (I.e., Nord Stage 2) and played the recording from my iPhone through many of their speakers. They were all setup and working. I heard Yamaha, RCF, JBL, EV, Alto, Mackie, and QSC. 

 

That sounds like a wonderful method to evaluate with your instrument as opposed to standard source material!  

[drawback]

44 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

I had a great experience shopping for speakers at a DJ store. I recorded myself playing my keyboard (I.e., Nord Stage 2) and played the recording from my iPhone through many of their speakers. They were all setup and working. I heard Yamaha, RCF, JBL, EV, Alto, Mackie, and QSC. 

I’ve forgotten which set you chose!

[Al Quinn]

I didn’t buy any that I heard at the DJ store. I ended up buying a pair of RCF TT08As on Dave Ferris’ recommendation and love them!

[Stokely]

I reckon those would be great, but way out of budget.   Especially because until our drummer gets an e-kit (which may be never) there will be a lot of gigs where I will be compelled to wear IEMs.  I don't particularly like IEMS, there are pros and cons (after a few hundred gigs with them) but I also want what is left of my hearing.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

I reckon those would be great, but way out of budget.   Especially because until our drummer gets an e-kit (which may be never) there will be a lot of gigs where I will be compelled to wear IEMs.  I don't particularly like IEMS, there are pros and cons (after a few hundred gigs with them) but I also want what is left of my hearing.

That’s it in a nutshell for me.  Is there any reason to go with an RCF model beneath the TT?  I’m not sure there is.  Since the TT monitors are so dang expensive the alternative seems to remain DXR and K.  
 

BTW There’s a next step up from Yamaha in the DZR line.  But those are twice the cost of DXR.  Worth it?  I’m not sure.  

[stoken6]

5 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

There’s a next step up from Yamaha in the DZR line

Someone on this forum uses DZRs for organ and loves them (is it Darren Heinrich/dazzjazz? Can't remember).

 

Cheers, Mike

[Delaware Dave]

Dave Ferris made a point that I actually followed several years ago when I was looking for a replacement monitor.  All the monitors at the time were made of ABS. The EV ELX line was an exception, it was still made of wood.  When I A/B'd them against the usual suspects (QSC, JBL, Mackie, yada yada) I found that when turned up the ELX were the warmest with the most clarity.  I attributed this to the wood structure.  Food for thought .....

[Stokely]

Yeah, the "turning up" part is what I want to avoid.  Because one reason speakers are more expensive is more power (and better sound when being pushed) I feel some of that would go unused.   I will be using these for fill-in gigs (with a particular band that has kind of rudimentary monitoring, but they are not loud) and for larger stages where I don't have a cymbal in my ear.  In either case I don't need to be loud.  My band has no amps on stage either.  I haven't done a single gig where my "amp" needs to be heard by the audience in almost 10 years, out of probably 4-500 gigs.  There was one multi-band benefit thing way back where the "PA" was vocal only but frankly it was a wall of distorted mud anyway as everyone cranked their amps to 1100...

And hey, if anyone feels that low volumes are a speaker equalizer and I should go cheaper, chime in!  I just know that I dislike playing through Mackie thumps, harbinger/behringer level speakers.  It's not that those aren't loud enough, mainly it's that they sound boxy and can't do piano well.   Vocals are also important if this is going to be a wedge, I do a lot of singing.

I've asked my rep for a DXR10 quote.  The covers are half the price of the RCFs, so that 50 bucks figures in as I want a cover.   My first concern is always reliability but I haven't seen evidence online where RCF or Yamaha have been problematic in that area.

[cphollis]

14 hours ago, Stokely said:

Hah, didn't know there was such a thing as a DJ store.  Shows you what I know!

I buy all of my speakers, mixers and lights through online DJ outlets.  Better availability, better price, etc.  The physical stores are often loaded up with cheap stuff (just like the music stores), but the online inventory is great.  

[D. Gauss]

You may be more picky than me for live gigs, but i like the cheaper yammy DBR10's. I got a used pair for $400 off craigs and use them as mains for crappy bar gigs.

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

22 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

You may be more picky than me for live gigs, but i like the cheaper yammy DBR10's. I got a used pair for $400 off craigs and use them as mains for crappy bar gigs.

 

 

The first thing that gets dropped from all of our usual suspects, QSC, Yamaha, Alto, etc. on the lower end is a cooling fan. Not a factor for everyone but if you do outdoors in summer it can be a problem.  

[Stokely]

That is something I had not considered, and yes we do outdoor gigs.  "Summer" here is pretty much most of the year.  We set our AC to 76-ish and it was on for much of February this year...  I fight tooth and nail to not be directly in the sun (or rain) but sometimes as the day progresses my gear gets some sun.  I've had an ipad shut down and experienced a PA side shutting down last July 4th (thankfully not the band's).

Outdoor gigs are the most likely ones where I'd be using this speaker as well.  One reason I started using IEMs was reflected sound in small-ish bars and clubs, outdoor of course you tend to not have that.

[ElmerJFudd]

24 minutes ago, Stokely said:

That is something I had not considered, and yes we do outdoor gigs.  "Summer" here is pretty much most of the year.  We set our AC to 76-ish and it was on for much of February this year...  I fight tooth and nail to not be directly in the sun (or rain) but sometimes as the day progresses my gear gets some sun.  I've had an ipad shut down and experienced a PA side shutting down last July 4th (thankfully not the band's).

Outdoor gigs are the most likely ones where I'd be using this speaker as well.  One reason I started using IEMs was reflected sound in small-ish bars and clubs, outdoor of course you tend to not have that.

That’s the only time I’ve ever had self powered PA monitors fail on me.  Outdoors, I start in the shade, the sky shifts an hour later and I’m in direct sun.  Poof, no sound. Last time it was a perfectly lovely EV ELX200.  No fan.  

[Stokely]

Same here.  And no matter how I try to predict where the sun will be, I'm usually wrong.  The band knows I'm the wilting flower in the group--as in, I'm prone to heat exhaustion and have had a number of different skin cancers of two types--so they try to tuck me in the most sheltered position, but sometimes the best-laid plans fall apart  Lasko fans help, we all bring one, but when you are simply blowing 100 degree humid air around it only helps so much...

Anyway, that's a good consideration that I hadn't thought of.

---

Edit: my rep got back.  The price of a DXR10 + cover is roughly equal to an RCF ART910a + cover with each given a moderate discount.   DXR is more of a known entity so now I'm leaning that way, until a breeze blows me back the other.   I'll run down to a couple local stores today if I can to see what they have but this might be more of a leap of faith.  Honestly I think I'll be pretty happy with any of these, I'm not that picky as long as there is some decent clarity.

--

Edit again, since this is the last post currently.

Any thoughts on used speakers?  My impression has always been that speakers have a sort of limited lifespan depending on use and abuse...the reason I ask is that Guitar center used (where I've bought a few used keyboards) has a couple used DXR10s.  I'm pretty sure they are the older model but they are in "great" condition and are half the price of new.   With GC of course you get 45 days to try and can return locally, so it's a pretty safe thing to do provided they don't crap out 46 days after purchase   (unless you want their extended warranty, which I've heard iffy things about and of course now the price is higher.)   Any thoughts on getting used when you aren't sure of the history of the speaker?

[Stokely]

Eh, I'm sticking with new I decided. Yamaha in particular has a 7-year warranty to go with Sweetwater's 2-year one.  I've had to send two items back that were between 8 months and 2 years, so that warranty has come in handy for me.   

[ElmerJFudd]

I also contemplate affordable ways to get speakers,  I lean toward B stock, floor models, but not so much second hand. 

[Kurzfan]

I also was blown away years ago by RCF TT08 about the clarity and natural sound it produces. I also think that wood structure helps in that respect.

Finally I bought 2x Bose Pro battery powered speakers which are light and cheaper than RCF. Also soundwise I am satisfied now…maybe untill I compare again with RCF…

[Stokely]

Yeah that's the thing.  Ignorance can be bliss   

Then again i remember when I got my triple driver custom iems, and not only did they not knock me over sound-wise, they occlude to the point where I can't sing.  They are too small to even be doorstops so what a waste of money...

But yeah I've heard everyone rave about those TT08s, and I might think about it if I used them at every gig.  My monitor would be a couple tiers better than our main PA at that point lol so that seems a bit weird!

Probably going with the DXR10 and move on.  Looking at the back, the multiple inputs might come in handy the more I think about it.  Mainly to be able to mix keys and aux-without-keys the same way I do with my Rolls headphone mixer.

[davinwv]

5 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

 If he still has his 08As for sale, you might want to contact Davin (davinwv) here on the forum. Less then a pair of DZR10s and a LOT lighter.

 

Thanks, Dave! Yes, @Stokely - if you are interested in a well cared for set of TT-08As with custom bags, please reach out via PM to discuss.

[Mark Schmieder]

18 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Someone on this forum uses DZRs for organ and loves them (is it Darren Heinrich/dazzjazz? Can't remember).

 

Cheers, Mike

 

In my own experience, what works for piano is awful on organ, and vice-versa, unfortunately. I had concluded they are mutually incompatible in their sound reproduction needs, but maybe I'm wrong and someone will chime in with a perfect universal keyboard P/A solution.

[Stokely]

On 6/16/2023 at 4:38 PM, davinwv said:

Thanks, Dave! Yes, @Stokely - if you are interested in a well cared for set of TT-08As with custom bags, please reach out via PM to discuss.

Whoops, just noticed this.  I appreciate the thought, I reckon even one TT-08A, used in decent shape, is probably double or more my budget.  I always run through the PA (and if I had two of those, I'd be tempted to let the band use them with our subs  ).  I just need a decent single monitor for some gigs where I don't use IEMs, and it would only be for me (nobody else needs to hear it, so it doesn't need to be super powerful; our stage volume isn't too high, everyone is direct with acoustic drums being the exception).

Thanks for all the ideas and thoughts on speakers everyone.

[Stokely]

Just to wrap this up, fired up my new Yamaha DXR10 today.  I'll be setting it up with my Key Largo later, but for the first test I just went right out of ch. 1 of my Nord Stage 3.  Volume about half up on the keyboard, which is where I have it at gigs.   I plugged into the 1/4" input #2, turned speaker volume up to 3 out of 10.   It has a slight fan noise when you turn it on, I don't think I'd want to use a pair of these as studio monitors (not that I would anyway).

It about took my head off. Holy hell do these get loud.  Once the KL is hooked up, it would probably be louder still.   Suffice it to say volume will not be an issue with this.  First gig with it is next weekend, subbing with a band with rather rudimentary monitoring and where I'll probably need to be communicating with the band leader, who calls out songs without a list (ie, no in-ears).

It sounds a tad mid-forward "boxy" compared to headphones but so does every monitor I've ever used, the best of which til now is probably the QSC 10, or maybe that RCF supplied at a gig that pushed my interest in the brand.   I bought the cover which can stay on during use and which should preserve the speaker nicely (if I ever want to sell, upgrade etc).   I'm feeling pretty happy with the purchase, especially between the 2-year Sweetwater warranty and 7-year Yamaha warranty.