Stereo Speaker/PA Placement

[Samb]

Hi there!

I couldn't find any threads about stereo speaker placement. My idea is that as there are several ways to miking something in stereo (AB, XY, Ortf, etc..) maybe someone tried this already with a pair of PA speakers too. Anyone has any experience? I'm thinking about situations where you bring your own amp to the gig and that's how the audience, band members and I hear myself. I'm kind of always using XY, so they are a bit far from each other, behind me. But what if I put them right next to each other and they face slightly away? Or I put one on the top of the other and do the same? Or maybe right next to each other and a bit facing one another. I don't want wild stereo panning, just a full/rich stereo-sound for AP,Rhodes,Synth. This way the sound would come from one place, a bit like with CPS V.3 (which I also have but the sound is not very detailed and too coloured.)

So if anyone tried fooling around with speaker-placement, I'm really interested in the outcome.

 

[Dave Number Four]

Good question!

 

I usually end up pointing one speaker more towards the rest of the band in that kind of situation, unless there's a lot of room behind the band so that both speakers can be heard directly by both the band and the audience.

 

So I'm prioritizing coverage over ideal sound for any one listener. It still seems to sound quite a bit better than mono, though.

Just now, Dave Number Four said:

Good question!

 

I usually end up pointing one speaker more towards the rest of the band in that kind of situation, unless there's a lot of room behind the band so that both speakers can be heard directly by both the band and the audience.

 

So I'm prioritizing coverage over ideal sound for any one listener. It still seems to sound quite a bit better than mono, though.

I realize that's not really what you're asking, though. And would love to hear what other people do.

[Coker]

If it has to be loud, I put the speakers next to the ends of my keyboard, then aim them in until I get enough sound to hear my self.  I also try to position myself in the back, sometimes turned, so the band can hear the speakers.

[Stokely]

I'm personally going all mono because it's a major pain to try to do stereo for some gigs and mono for others.  Mainly because some patches, especially piano, change in timbre and volume.  

Think of a piano--is that "stereo" or "mono" when you are say 20 feet from it.   The instrument is essentially mono at distance, but you hear stereo from the room (unless it's a dead room).  A signal coming out to the PA is going to be changed by the room is the way I figure it, so why not make sure it's consistent for both sides of the PA.

The two big appeals of stereo for me with in-ears is that 1) patches don't phase out and 2) it opens up the middle for  vocals and other instruments if your have a mono aux.   Ideally, you'd have a stereo monitor where you could pan mono vocals and instruments apart a bit, but some mixers don't have enough auxes to do this (and with sound companies, one is all I've ever gotten.)

So what I'm doing is simply "mono-izing" all my patches and keep it simple.  

Mainly though I'm just tired of having issues where the pianos dip in volume.  If I monitor in stereo (in-ears) and send mono to FOH, then I find out later that "the piano was too low, I had to boost you at times" or worse slap a big compressor on me, because in stereo the piano was a good volume relative to other patches.  So I couldn't tell that out front it was an issue.   The band has complained as well about patch volume fluctuations, since they all monitor mono so they are hearing something different from me.  Granted, patch leveling is always a challenge even if always in mono or stereo.    All that said, I'm hopeful that the white grand on my new (used) NS3 will help, it seems better going to mono than my Modx pianos.

[timwat]

I use two PA speakers a lot of the times. And I run them in stereo. And I IEM monitor in stereo.

 

But I don't run two PA speakers for stereo.

 

See, even with dramatic combis with elements flying around with panning, the audience never hears "stereo" from me, at least not in the traditional two-channel sense that we typically mean when we equate it with headphones, or critical audiophile listening. In a self-amplified setting (in other words, not a well-mixed FOH system), I'm just trying to provide enough width so that audience on the far left and right still hear the keyboards. Which, with self-powered PA speakers, isn't always the case. Because they have projection width characteristics, and with a relatively short-but-wide (rather than narrow-but-deep) audience config (many small-to-medium halls), it's pretty easy to find a place in the hall that will be off-axis from my single keyboard speaker. 

 

So no matter how close or far apart I place them, I angle them in such a way to try to cover as much of the hall as possible...and this has a tertiary benefit of providing more KB to the rest of the band as well. But primarily I'm doing this so the audience can hear me no matter where they're at.

 

I'm sure that the more "stereo-panning" patches benefit from this, but I'm not kidding myself that there are many critical listening audiences that pick it up in that sense. And yes, AP is always a difficult sound to get to project properly, no matter what.

[Bill H.]

The only time I thought running in stereo live was an improvement was in a praise band, where the sound system was set up like a movie theater with side fills. In that space you could clearly hear the stereo spread of ethereal pads - which the pastor and MD really liked. I monitored myself with a couple of 5" bullet monitors pointed towards me at either end of the keyboard rig. 

 

For clubs I monitor in mono - with keys sometimes in mono and sometimes in stereo FOH depending on the situation. Stereo out was convenience - I wasn't expecting the room to hear it's effect. 

[Coker]

We’ve all had this discussion before about the audience not hearing the stereo.  But some of us feel like we play better, maybe more inspired, when we hear the sounds in stereo.  They sound more like “the album.”

[PianoMan51]

Stereo for me, mono for the audience. 
 

FOH gets the R output.

[Docbop]

I wish I knew where my  "Back to Mono"  button was I post a copy of it.      I attended a Phil Spector talk about his music and production.   It was around the time he was working on the Beatles  Let It Be album.    There was bit a stink raised during the making of the album that Phil wanted to do it in Mono like his  Wall of Sound day.  I think John Lennon had a box of Back to Mono buttons made and gave them to Phil.     Phil had some up on the table where he was speaking so I asked if I could take one and he said sure. 

 

Same thing happened again when Phil produced John Lennon's Rock N Roll album that I got to go to one of the session for.    Lennon wanted it to be recorded like the old Wall of Sound sessions with double everything all live in one room.   Again Phil started demanding ot record it in Mono.   This time the A&M studios said we were told by the record company they want multitrack and that is what we are going to do.    So to keep everyone happy  A&M said we will record multitrack, but set it up so you can do a Mono mix and send it to another machine.   So Phil was happy.    

 

Two of my friends played on that album and being the studio was packed with so many people it made it easy from me to sneak in.    In fact I walked right behind Spector at the console so I could get to far end of the room and sit down in front of the console.    

 

so  Back To Mono!

[Samb]

Thanks everyone for the answers, I appreciate it. However this thread wasn't meant to be another stereo vs mono discussion.

As I said in my first post this is a situation when there's no FOH. Close to acoustic jazz-band situation. And I'm curious about speaker placement/setup for stereo sound. As I've also said: no extreme panning, just the spaciousness of the stereo, as I hear it from a real piano too.

[tnelson]

A feature of Pianoteq is that you can select "Monophonic" for any of their piano models and presets, and it recalculates them from a single microphone position. It does not just sum stereo or multi microphone into mono.  With the Standard version of Pianoteq, you can place the single virtual microphone wherever you wish, select the type of microphone, etc. In my experience, these can sound great in the live context you describe, projecting a piano image from a single location like a real one.

[timwat]

1 hour ago, Samb said:

Thanks everyone for the answers, I appreciate it. However this thread wasn't meant to be another stereo vs mono discussion.

As I said in my first post this is a situation when there's no FOH. Close to acoustic jazz-band situation. And I'm curious about speaker placement/setup for stereo sound. As I've also said: no extreme panning, just the spaciousness of the stereo, as I hear it from a real piano too.

Yup, that's what I was trying to comment on. 

 

In my anecdotal playing jazz trio, speaker separation vs. pointing them in a wider angle to greater dispersion  - I think you get more of the droids you're looking for with the latter, from an audience perspective.

 

 

[D. Gauss]

Mono PA audience. Always.  Disagree?  As someone who paid $$$$ front row to see the late, great Danny Gatton front row, albeit far stage right at an outdoor festival, only to have Danny be far stage left, and never heard a single note he played the whole show, stereo PA is a terrible idea.

[ElmerJFudd]

Endless debate on this topic.   
 

I just want a digital piano we can drag around to sound like an acoustic piano in timbre, volume and dispersion.
 

How hard can it be to design an amplification system that duplicates the wave behavior of a 230-string-harp-in-a-wooden-box? 😉

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

Mono PA audience. Always.  Disagree?  As someone who paid $$$$ front row to see the late, great Danny Gatton front row, albeit far stage right at an outdoor festival, only to have Danny be far stage left, and never heard a single note he played the whole show, stereo PA is a terrible idea.

 

Except the OP was not about putting a stereo piano through a PA with speakers on each side of the stage, as is typical - it was for a "personal" stereo rig with speakers closer to the keyboard & player. In that case, nobody other than the player will perceive a wide stereo image but at least the sound won't have the phase-cancelled boxyness from stereo samples summed to mono.

 

IMO, your description of not being able to hear Danny Gatton's piano because it was on the far side of the stage (apologies if I'm understanding wrong) doesn't speak to a stereo vs mono issue, if his piano was going through the main PA (I assume it was). Mono or stereo, there should have been enough piano coming out both sides of the PA to be audible. You said you were in the front row - maybe too far in front to be covered by the PA? Then you'd be hearing mostly (or primarily) spill from sidefills and wedges, which could easily account for what you experienced (especially if Danny was using in-ears!).

 

I don't think I'd have a problem being in the audience listening to a true mono-sampled piano, but I might if I was on stage playing one! 🙂 

[Samb]

6 hours ago, timwat said:

Yup, that's what I was trying to comment on. 

 

In my anecdotal playing jazz trio, speaker separation vs. pointing them in a wider angle to greater dispersion  - I think you get more of the droids you're looking for with the latter, from an audience perspective.

 

 

Yes, you were and thank you for that. You were among the very few.

The majority of the comments are still about doing it in mono. And also talking about FOH and as an audience sitting in front of the right channel, which is not at all the case here etc.. Either they haven't read the OP or they are just ignorant.

[Samb]

5 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Endless debate on this topic.   
 

I just want a digital piano we can drag around to sound like an acoustic piano in timbre, volume and dispersion.
 

How hard can it be to design an amplification system that duplicates the wave behavior of a 230-string-harp-in-a-wooden-box? 😉

True, but OP was not about this. It was about speaker placement.

[Samb]

6 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

Mono PA audience. Always.  Disagree?  As someone who paid $$$$ front row to see the late, great Danny Gatton front row, albeit far stage right at an outdoor festival, only to have Danny be far stage left, and never heard a single note he played the whole show, stereo PA is a terrible idea.

Could you read the OP before commenting? As I've said two times already: NO FOH, NO panning.

You are talking about a compleeetely different situation.

In my setup, the speakers are behind me, close together. No huge stage. No outdoor festival. (No soundguy.)

[Al Quinn]

On 6/3/2023 at 3:28 AM, Samb said:

So if anyone tried fooling around with speaker-placement, I'm really interested in the outcome.

Yes, I’ve tried a few different things through the years when playing gigs where I’m not going through the PA and need to rely only on the sound from my speakers.  Putting two powered speakers (i.e., RCF TT08As) next to each other was disappointing. For some reason they didn’t play nice together. Once I separated the speakers the sound came together nicely.
 

Here are two approaches that have worked well for me:

 

Option 1) When using two powered speakers behind me the challenge has been how to place them so that the volume is right for me, my bandmates, and the audience. At ear level doesn’t work because the volume that’s good for me isn’t enough for the audience. Above ear level is OK, but I’d rather not schlep two speaker poles. Below ear level on small folding step stools with the speakers angled up in floor monitor position works beautifully. This position provides proper attenuation of the volume for me, my bandmates, and the audience simply by adjusting the volume so that it sounds good to me. I like this better than Option 2 if the schlep involves stairs.
 

Option 2) I also like the sound of my Motion Sound KP-610S stereo keyboard amp. It’s heavier than the powered speakers but has the advantage of a smaller and simpler footprint on stage. I like this better than Option 1 when space is tight. 

 

Here’s an example of Option 1:

Here’s an example of Option 2:

 

[Reezekeys]

I second Al's option #1 - it's what I've been doing since I got my QSC K8s 14 years ago. I'm usually all the way stage right so I angle my whole setup inwards a bit, as illustrated in my wonderful artwork below. This helps the rest of the band hear me and gets out to a good proportion of the audience. As Al says, keep the drivers away from ear level so you can push the volume and do the job without murdering your eardrums. The folding footstools are perfect for this, IMO. I was helped by the K8s' generous horizontal dispersion (105º, more than the arrows below would indicate). Of course, depending on the shape of the room and the location of the stage, it sometimes entailed a compromise in how much of the audience was covered, but that's life. Putting the speakers on poles can work too (and would get your sound further out into the club), but I missed the energy of feeling my sound coming out right near me. It's always a compromise when you want your amp rig to essentially do three jobs - you, band and audience. I'm selfish so I take care of #1 first, then the band, and last is the audience. It usually works out OK for everybody (except they have to hear my playing!). 🙂

 

[ElmerJFudd]

17 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

I second Al's option #1 - it's what I've been doing since I got my QSC K8s 14 years ago. I'm usually all the way stage right so I angle my whole setup inwards a bit, as illustrated in my wonderful artwork below. This helps the rest of the band hear me and gets out to a good proportion of the audience. As Al says, keep the drivers away from ear level so you can push the volume and do the job without murdering your eardrums. The folding footstools are perfect for this, IMO. I was helped by the K8s' generous horizontal dispersion (105º, more than the arrows below would indicate). Of course, depending on the shape of the room and the location of the stage, it sometimes entailed a compromise in how much of the audience was covered, but that's life. Putting the speakers on poles can work too (and would get your sound further out into the club), but I missed the energy of feeling my sound coming out right near me. It's always a compromise when you want your amp rig to essentially do three jobs - you, band and audience. I'm selfish so I take care of #1 first, then the band, and last is the audience. It usually works out OK for everybody (except they have to hear my playing!). 🙂

 

This type of placement makes great sense for when you’re only running vocals through FOH.  Or at least not running keys through the pa. Or, when you’re unhappy with the space and volume the mixing engineer is affording keys. 😃
 

 

[Al Quinn]

21 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

I second Al's option #1 - it's what I've been doing since I got my QSC K8s 14 years ago.

I should have mentioned that I use Option 1 because you shared shared your setup on the forum. Thanks for the tip Rob!

 

I notice that you place your speakers upright (pole orientation) while I place mine on their side (floor monitor orientation). I’m curious if you’ve tried both orientations and, if so, why you prefer upright. 

[rogs]

I find that the natural inclination to position 2 speakers as if they were  being used for a hi fi system in the lounge  --ie. spaced out facing slightly away from each other can give a you a 'hole in the middle' of your sound stage.

Better, in my experience, to place the speakers facing slghtly towards each other...... So that the sound sources effectively 'cross' each other.

As we're not talkng stereo here, I find that orientation gives a more  even sound 'spread'.... 

[Reezekeys]

17 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

I notice that you place your speakers upright (pole orientation) while I place mine on their side (floor monitor orientation). I’m curious if you’ve tried both orientations and, if so, why you prefer upright. 

 

You put your speakers in floor monitor orientation on footstools? I would think that angles the sound upwards, possibly hitting your ears and maybe projecting towards the ceiling instead of horizontally out into the audience. Maybe I'm not understanding things right. I want my speakers to push directly out to the stage and audience. There is one more minor detail - the original K8s aren't designed to be placed in floor monitor orientation! The K10s and K12s could do it, not the K8s.

[Reezekeys]

32 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

This type of placement makes great sense for when you’re only running vocals through FOH.  Or at least not running keys through the pa. Or, when you’re unhappy with the space and volume the mixing engineer is affording keys. 😃

 

Right - which unless I misunderstood, is the situation described in the OP! I.e., the "self-contained" keys rig - your stage sound does it all.

[Al Quinn]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

You put your speakers in floor monitor orientation on footstools? I would think that angles the sound upwards, possibly hitting your ears and maybe projecting towards the ceiling instead of horizontally out into the audience.

The TT08A cabinet design provides a different angle for each side. If I were using it as a floor monitor I would place it on the side with the steeper angle and in that position the sound would be directed toward my ears and the ceiling. But when using them behind me I place them on the side with the smaller angle and they just angle up slightly. 

 

[Al Quinn]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

There is one more minor detail - the original K8s aren't designed to be placed in floor monitor orientation! The K10s and K12s could do it, not the K8s.

I used to have the K8s. Although the K8 doesn’t provide floor monitor orientation out of the box, with one additional bolt it can be placed on its side in floor monitor orientation. If you look you’ll find the screw hole in the K8 housing that facilitates this. I bought the necessary bolts at the hardware store. It’s been awhile so I’m not remembering clearly enough to say whether or not adjusting the screw adjusts the angle. I agree that the typical floor monitor angle wouldn’t work well for placement on stools behind the player.

[D. Gauss]

13 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

 

IMO, your description of not being able to hear Danny Gatton's piano because it was on the far side of the stage (apologies if I'm understanding wrong) doesn't speak to a stereo vs mono issue, if his piano was going through the main PA (I assume it was).

 

 

fwiw, danny gatton was a brilliant, virtuoso, guitar player who committed suicide many years ago, not a keyboard player (see below).  show i saw, pa system was in stereo,  instruments panned as to position on stage (festival stage was at least 60 feet wide, maybe more).  i.e.  nothing on far right side of stage (i.e. danny) came out of the left side stacks and vice versa. doh!

 

As to OP's specific question, spaced pair behind you, on either side of your bench, not angled out nor in, imo, is probably the most natural, realistic experience for the player.

 

 

[Reezekeys]

Oh man, right, Danny was a guitar player of course. I knew the name but that's a genre of music I didn't follow. Please forgive my ignorance!

 

My only other comment is - 99.9% of every larger show I've played (where everything is in the the PA) has been with stereo PAs, and I have never heard of panning the instruments the way you described it at Danny's show. Is this an actual live sound technique I'm just ignorant of, like the instrument Danny Gatton plays?!

 

My stereo piano samples (and I'm guessing many others) are close-miked and capture a binaural sound, giving a sense of "space" more than simply bass notes on one side and treble on the other. If you're sitting near stage right you should easily hear my bass notes in the left PA stack, and vice versa (assuming the PA maintains player perspective, reverse that if it's audience perspective!). You may not get that rich and rewarding sound of being in the sweet spot but you also won't be hearing my piano's L&R summed - which I know sounds like crap! I would take "mostly" right channel or "mostly" left over that.

[Reezekeys]

32 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

As to OP's specific question, spaced pair behind you, on either side of your bench, not angled out nor in, imo, is probably the most natural, realistic experience for the player.

 

That's pretty much what I do on solo gigs, here's a pic from a  few years ago: