Non-verbal band communication

[o0Ampy0o]

I was talking with a musician and programmer today about communication between trees. Scientists have injected a disease in a tree. Somehow trees all the way on the other side of a forrest comprehend its presence and begin producing antibodies to build up resistance. Trees nourish saplings of their own and adjacent trees. They sense a challenging period and will limit their nourishing to their own saplings. A large orchestra of trained seasoned pro musicians also have a way of non-verbally communicating.

 

Someone can choose to resist the conductor and everyone follows. Leonard Bernstein was attempting to get an orchestra to do a faster transition. The musicians nodded but kept resisting because someone was signaling not to go along. I was speaking to a musician who was there. Are any of you aware of this form of communication? It is done in an ensemble context. This was a rehearsal but it is done in actual performances. If you can recognize what I am attempting to  describe is this something any of you have attained in any band context?

[Thethirdapple]

Happens all the time in everyday life, especially among a group which is “in tune” with each other. “Non verbal cue’s”…

And also the sensation of understanding a universal language without understanding the words spoken happens when we are attentive to receiving the emotions and meaning of someones actions…

 

Watched this video early today and don't speak a lick of Japanese but I “understood” exactly what he is getting across in the entire video, Music is a fantastic language which transcends almost any barrier… 

 

 

PEACE

[TommyRude]

3 hours ago, Thethirdapple said:

Happens all the time in everyday life, especially among a group which is “in tune” with each other. “Non verbal cue’s”…

And also the sensation of understanding a universal language without understanding the words spoken happens when we are attentive to receiving the emotions and meaning of someones actions…

 

Watched this video early today and don't speak a lick of Japanese but I “understood” exactly what he is getting across in the entire video, Music is a fantastic language which transcends almost any barrier… 

 

 

PEACE

nice find

[nursers]

The drummer and I communicate in the 'flipping of the bird' multiple times per gig  

[Stokely]

We've occasionally had to do the "go faster" round and round hand signal to our drummer.   Once in a while, the "damp it down" when he's going a bit too fast for the singer to squeeze in the lyrics   

We've been together so long we don't really need much, though with sub players you go back to the "this is a new song" stage and come up with ways to give them a heads up on things (mainly endings).

[MathOfInsects]

17 hours ago, o0Ampy0o said:

Scientists have injected a disease in a tree. Somehow trees all the way on the other side of a forrest comprehend its presence and begin producing antibodies to build up resistance. Trees nourish saplings of their own and adjacent trees. They sense a challenging period and will limit their nourishing to their own saplings. 

Can you link to this? I have questions and want to read more about it to clarify.

[ElmerJFudd]

You mean the stink eye the John gets from Paul when Yoko sits in his amp?  

[surfergirl]

We've had our own communication since we were about 1, so never a problem for us. 

[o0Ampy0o]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Can you link to this? I have questions and want to read more about it to clarify.

 

Which part? It was all from a casual conversation with a man eventually attributing his musical mentor for his ability to comprehend complexity which lead to a high level security position under 4 presidents.

 

The Bernstein story was his personal experience. He was at a rehearsal. The band communication is something more subtle than one person being stubborn or rebellious or incapable and everyone adjusts to something obvious. These were world class seasoned musicians. 80+ in the orchestra. It had to be a universal language I am thinking because of all the different instruments and so many musicians, some there longer than others. It transitioned from the tree communication which presents questions of intelligence and awareness. I don't have a link but Googling tree communication produces results I have not explored.  

 

Just an interesting piece is that Bernstein wasn't picking up on any communication. He was frustrated because he would voice his objective and receive nods and agreement but when they played the piece they all did it different than Bernstein intended. He eventually stopped and asked a group of Juilliard students whom the man was seated with what they thought. One by one he got to this man. My understanding of it is that his response turned a light on for Bernstein. He described how doing it slower resolved something. Bernstein extended an open invitation welcoming him to future rehearsals and one time he even cleared the room but said he could stay.

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, o0Ampy0o said:

Which part?

The part I quoted. The trees.

[Thethirdapple]

mycorrhizal networks

[MathOfInsects]

Thanks. I had some question about whether that was a valid scientific observation or a pop-sci spin on something else. It appears to be largely or completely the latter. But I wanted to read about it first, just in case.

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

The part I quoted. The trees.

 

1 hour ago, Thethirdapple said:

mycorrhizal networks

Google "Wood Wide Web". Fascinating.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Thethirdapple]

48 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Thanks. I had some question about whether that was a valid scientific observation or a pop-sci spin on something else. It appears to be largely or completely the latter. But I wanted to read about it first, just in case.

 

I wouldn’t want to disparage the use of loose analogies or colloquialism‘s when describing realities which “we” don’t fully understand. And i wouldn’t go off of simply something I read, whether on the internet or any book… I’m not saying that “avatar” style sci-fi is fact but…
 

The sun doesn't actually rise or set

A.I. is neither, artificial nor intelligence

North isn’t “up” nor actually the “top” of anything (as in “up north and down south”)

 

No disrespect but, “Valid scientific observation” is a loaded term. Not difficult to point to the endless history of “unaccepted ideas” being later seen as fact. I like the prompt of the OP and the nitty gritty details do not matter much when the sentiment is self evident. IMHO and experience.

 

PEACE

[o0Ampy0o]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

The part I quoted. The trees.

 

It is more difficult viewing this forum on a cell phone. We are not always on a computer or tablet. My cell happens to be an iPhone 8 before the larger sizes were available. The quote was truncated and looked like you just quoted my whole post. I read your words not mine in the quote. Sometimes it is clearer what someone is quoting but not for me this time.

[jazzpiano88]

I think mastering the art of nonverbal communication is ideal in many ways.

When they call your accuser to the witness stand, what are they going to do?

[The Real MC]

I play in a band with my school buddy guitar player and the set list often deviates depending on the crowd.

 

He indicates songs using charades.  Crack the whip - "Whipping Post".  Tongue in cheek pointed east - Head East "Never Been Any Reason".  Two raised fingers - "Two Tickets To Paradise".  Hands on steering wheel - The Cars "Just What I Needed".

[OG_Dave]

I was also going to point out (with respect) that "valid scientific observation" is quite a loaded term. Certainly the last thirty years give ample reasons to suspect "science" of having the same failings as its creators. i.e. biased, prone to corruption, and frequently wrong. Let's talk p values and statistical methodology, shall we?

 

However, back on the topic of arboreal communication...this has been known for decades...I would say for tens of thousands of years, yet science pretends that a thing unproven by grant funded professors cannot rationally exist. Why is that? Druids have known since before Stonehenge that trees communicate, so catch up science! "Science" is a method, not a body of knowledge. And to the extent a body of knowledge is borne from prudent exercise of the method, the body of knowledge is less complete than complete.

 

Re: non verbal communication - that is what music is, right? Perhaps this is a story of symbiotic intuition affecting group behavior? I dunno about you, but I am generally aware of the states of people's moods if I'm in proximity to them, certainly if I am engaged in a joint effort of some sort, and that awareness, both conscious and unconscious, mediates interaction. I used to play in a very good band and I clearly remember instances where we would lock into a pocket so tight that the energy in the room became something we could literally pass around to each other. It felt like a ball of energy and it was crazy fun, deeply powerful to get the chance to participate in. I was a lot like throwing a beach ball around, but crackly and slightly dangerous like it was alive and had expectations of its own.

[MathOfInsects]

Oy.

[o0Ampy0o]

Is this the collective consciousness of a large body of advanced musicians overriding another advanced musician's idea? This group of well-trained and experienced musicians understood Bernstein's idea did not work as well as what they collectively produced. No one in the orchestra voiced it but on a different level some sensed how it should be done to present it in the best form and others picked up on the other's awareness? It is one thing to sense what people close to you feel but for 80+ people to simultaneously take a different path than what their leader is signaling/encouraging would be an example of how individuals can align with enough focus, training and experience.

 

Regarding "science" is it not more of a system rather than a method? There is more to it that just the approach. The method is just one aspect of a governing objective.

[bfields]

Magical instant telepathy would be nice but most of the time I'd settle for just understanding why someone across the stage is glaring at me right now.

 

Typical recent example:

 

bandleader: "my prerogative"

me: ??

bandleader: "my preROGATIVE"

me: cues up lovergirl

drummer: launches into my prerogative

me: scrambles, joins in a few bars later.

[MathOfInsects]

On wedding gigs, we go song to song without stopping. One singer calls the next song while the other is singing the current one. Some just put the title up on an ipad or phone and show it around. But others engage in elaborate pantomimes, almost like charades. Songs like "Kiss," "I Wanna Be Your Lover," "Just the Two of Us," "Juice," "Across the Sea," "All the Single Ladies" and others, make for very entertaining real-time dramatic interpretations.  

[OG_Dave]

musical charade or musical charades? Sounds fun!

 

Re the epistemology of science...I quit! fwiw, one of my brothers is a leading academician on the epistemology of science. Taught at UCLA for twenty years or so. Man, that guy is boring! lol

[Tusker]

While I am not a believer in metaphysical connection, I do think that people who played a lot together tend to be very aware of each other's musical intention. Whether they are hearing it in the notes or viewing it in the body language I do not know. But I love that musical connection when I see it or feel it. 

[Thethirdapple]

[Bill H.]

If you work with a front for a number of years, a nod your direction can mean take the lead (vocally), take the lead (keys), go to bridge, go to the end, turn up, turn down... and you usually get it right. It's all in the context of the song, coupled with a lot of gigs under your belt. 

 

As far as trees go, I remember reading an article about a tree in the tropics that releases pheromones when it's leaves are being eaten by giraffes - which trigger it's other leaves (and other trees' leaves) to produce an oil that makes them bitter. But since trees (as with all plants) have no neurons, they can't "feel" anything. 

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

That meta-study I linked essentially finds that the "wood wide web" concept has been fueled by a sort of sexy storyline, which has led to publication bias in its favor and even confirmation bias among those researching it, and if you look at the data behind the idea, it doesn't hold up. Trees are probably just trees, or at the very most those connected by root systems are probably the only ones connected. 

Will we find out more in the future and could it be different? Heck ya. That's the way of the world. All self-congratulatory Enlightenment Era European presumptions about our perch at the top of a serf-like biosystem have proven to be wrong, one by one. 

 

But for now the research that that sexy storyline is based on, doesn't seem to support it, near as my very non-qualified eyes can tell through others' qualified and objective eyes. 

I was just curious if the tree stuff was real, because it sounded like wishful thinking but I was open to being (and hoping to be) awed. 

All very much a sidebar.

There is another more direct kind of non-verbal communication that musicians who play together a lot begin to develop: little hints in their sound or phrases, as to where we're going next. I don't mean cliches or predictable phrases, I just mean, if I'm wondering if now is when we're going to the IV, I can tell literally by the way the bass player plays the I a measure before that we're getting ready to walk up a measure later. We can also start to "feel" each other's fills, so that they sound like the whole band knew they were coming. There just becomes a way of "co-feeling time" that the band starts to experience together, eventually. 

I can't imagine a circumstance where someone would actively resist this. They might miss the moment, but would still be in service of the song in one way or another. 

 

[o0Ampy0o]

I think the observing musician was speaking more about acute awareness than a metaphysical connection but I was wondering whether it was a blend at least. I could not describe the acute awareness aspect until after I read a couple of recent comments made. That crossed my mind when I was having the conversation but I wasn't in the needed frame of mind to compose my original post as well as it could have been. This was a large group and most of the musicians would not have everyone in their view. It might have involved audio cues but then you have to consider the wide variety of instruments. There are also the varying amounts of time each individual had spent within this specific orchestra to consider. But there are common denominators like being the cream of the crop on a world scale with experience behind it. Overall you might develop a sense for something aside from the basics which approaches a metaphysical element.

 

One other thing is something known as confirmation bias. I am more open to a metaphysical element while others are more cynical going into every situation. In both instances a degree of confirmation bias can be present.

[timwat]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

On wedding gigs, we go song to song without stopping. 

Same here, for wedding / corporate gigs. I MD by calling each song in our IEMs - I wear a headset mic that only goes into the monitor feed. 

 

We publish a large inventory of songs before the gig, and everyone is expected to do their homework. Some of these are permanent common tunes, some are requested by client. When we arrive, I ask if we need to no-fly any of them for any reason. Then I'll typically package our first five songs we'll open with, and then I call subsequent tunes one at a time in the last third of the current play. No telepathy needed. 

 

For trio / quartet jazz kinds of gigs, seems to me telepathy means having big ears, and a vocabulary wide enough to respond from. Helps if you've played with the fellas enough times to have familiarity. 

 

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, timwat said:

Same here, for wedding / corporate gigs. I MD by calling each song in our IEMs - I wear a headset mic that only goes into the monitor feed. 

 

We publish a large inventory of songs before the gig, and everyone is expected to do their homework. Some of these are permanent common tunes, some are requested by client. When we arrive, I ask if we need to no-fly any of them for any reason. Then I'll typically package our first five songs we'll open with, and then I call subsequent tunes one at a time in the last third of the current play. No telepathy needed. 

 

For trio / quartet jazz kinds of gigs, seems to me telepathy means having big ears, and a vocabulary wide enough to respond from. Helps if you've played with the fellas enough times to have familiarity. 

 

That's a great system. For this, it's a corporate band, so different personnel on every gig. The singers call the songs on the fly--they make the party, we just keep the wheels turning.  And no band-wide in-ears. Thought that would be a great option for them. Maybe I'll suggest it.