OG_Dave

I skipped much of the conversation due to the prevalence of an assumption the validity of which is subject to debate: i.e. that "intelligence" is a result of evolutionary processes. There is copious material from religious to philosophical tracts and, increasingly in quantum physics research that indicates intelligence is an a proiri condition of all manifestation. Thus, all "life" is by definition intelligent. The other inferred assumption is that humans are capable of recognizing life when they see it. Science is not so wise as it wants or needs to be. As for recognizing intelligence, truly our species is hardly qualified to judge. In other words, yes there are untold lifeforms strewn about the universe. The place is teeming with life. Without meaning to sound rude..its merely a human conceit borne of arrogance and ignorance that stymies recognition of the obvious.

lyrics are a trip. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. I tend to hate new songs but like them after 10 0r 15 years pass.

Me too although I love "classical" music and Be-bop/swing. Then again, they tell stories there too use, but it's non verbal communication.

I enjoyed both articles, thanks!

My wife coined the the term "tyranny of mediocrity" back in 2010 or so to describe what daily life at her 40/hr a week job had become. Funny girl. It's been a race to the bottom for a while now and all the lies and incompetence are being seen for what they are by a growing percentage of people. It's getting downright crowded here in loony land with all the new converts.

<cough> Not to disparage this young man in any way, but yea. I find it incongruous that so much effort can be put into developing an elevated craft yet somehow bereft of the ineffable. <scratches head> Did I say that right? Al Di Meola bores me to tears. <Heresy alert> So did Jeff Beck.

Homer...the Simpsons were solely responsible for me breaking an 8 year TV boycott whenever it was they came out. "It's funny 'cause it's true!" But as far as AI goes, it's one of the more spectacularly imbecilic grifts yet. Right up there with bit coin and expanding NATO. I know that most people will fall in line with AI with nary a thought. I will simply wait until the inevitable catastrophe results and wait to see what affect that has. None I suppose. Fortunately, I am too old to be put in a goo filled pod to live out my life as a battery. I also happen to believe that the constraints of reality will burst that little bubble before much time passes. Sorry dystopian AI future, your hand is a dud.

Exactly. It's the story told honestly that draws people in. Technical skill is largely an illusion in one sense. I've heard plenty of virtuosi that bore the dickens out of me!

I was just writing a few lines on self sabotage and found this post. 🙂 Specifically, I, like you, have some technical ability though I consider myself a rather mediocre singer. I have gotten to a point where I don't cringe when I hit playback and I get compliments on my voice - and actually always have. What I don't have is the belief that I can sing well. I have a belief system that I'm somehow not quite up to scratch. And I struggle with this singing in my own true voice thing a lot. One of my brothers was like "Why do sound like an English guy on that song Dave?" I told him that the song needed me to sound like an 80's pop singer. Nothing to do with me at all. Liar that I am. I especially struggle on high notes...being able to confidently sing in the mask eludes me. Doesn't stop me, but it leaves me dissatisfied. Anyway, last night - in my community there's a hosted evening once a month for songwriters to come and play a couple tunes to an audience of songwriters. It's weird and nerve wracking and fun. Everyone is actually listening and some of the people are remarkably talented. I had one too many 8 percent beers and totally crashed and burned one of my tunes. Like laughably bad. I'm an old hand at live gigs and this was pretty much the biggest train wreck ever lol. Self sabotage. There was a guy there, no idea who is he, but holy sh*t, that guy killed it. He even sang a song about how he had a realization that he could be the guy that shared the music that was blowing his mind as a kid. That he could be the guy that made music that somebody else could enjoy as much as he did. And that light a fire in him and he keeps it lit, letting it burn in him. Owning it. It was a nice story about his mom helping him to that understanding. At least that what my ears interpreted. Powerful and thought provoking. I think our self myths are correctable. In this life you are what you choose to be, you just have to give yourself permission to not be afraid of the shadows a strong light casts. And then work your ass off (again) to gain the technical things like stamina and consistency. I am definitely an emotional coward. Self sabotage. You got this man. You obviously love it, so relax and let yourself enjoy the gift.

I'll have a dip in that pool of thought though I'm not read up on it, I will investigate. I lean towards the notion that "awareness" is a priori in the quantum realm and portions of a larger consciousness manifest pervasively in the "Newtonian" realm of matter bound physics. Similar to "The finer scale of consciousness: quantum theory" ideas but not exactly. There is, empirically, a reciprocal determination component at play on a quantum level which I find fascinating.

Exactly. I don't want to sound harsh but I find, especially lately, that science really is quite full of itself, and yes, I am fairly well indoctrinated in science, I just don't agree that it explains very much outside of its rather limited purview. Case in point: This is a meaningless dismissal and should raise red flags. Re: peer review. An article by Richard Smith former Editor of the British Journal of Medicine and a rather distinguished member of the Medical community in which he explains far better than I can some of the concerns with peer review as a control. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420798/ A better outcome from the fungi article would have been an itemized rebuttal subsequent to a substantive review of the evidence they so casually discarded. While I once believed the conditioning that the universe was a dead place and that "magic" or "metaphysical" events, situations, etc. were simply fantasies, a cheap way out from the cold hard facts, I have been unable to reconcile many experiences within the constraints of the scientific model. My assertion being that science is merely a tool for understanding the mundane, not a container for the universe. We should not confuse the map for the territory. I ask: where in science can we find a love of music? How does science explain the perceptual sharing, the emotional reactions, created across time and space from one mind to another, whether that state of awareness is communicated via book, song, painting or sculpture? Why is live music so much more thrilling than recorded music? No, no I say to science. Hold your tongue and know that beauty is a mystery you cannot solve. Not by smashing particles together at insanely high voltages, nor through clever computing programs pretending to be intelligent. A tree has more to say on the subject that you ever will, my dear old friend. Science, it is time you admit defeat and let us go about our business. Look not to a single explanation for the complexity of the world. As Thethirdapple intimated, we have a severe perceptual bias, unsupported by the facts, and not necessarily because the facts haven't been presented. I submit this fealty blinds us to much, to our collective detriment. I rather like the idea that fungi act analogously to neurons within the context of trees as a forest. One mind composed of cells we call trees. We know insects have hive minds. Whose to say this model doesn't repeat? Whose to say humans don't have an analog? Jung's musings on archetypes fits. Mandelbrot speaks eloquently on the notion of fractals and we can extrapolate whether our dear old, tired friend science likes it or not! I'll put down my diatribe with a final thought - my father was a nuclear physicist who once said to me, "the more I learn about quantum behavior, the stronger my faith in God becomes."

AI is a hot topic. Personally, I think it's a laughably stupid idea and am eagerly looking forward to the first major calamity that comes from its unbridled introduction. Humans...ah humans, we never see a bad idea we don't like.

musical charade or musical charades? Sounds fun! Re the epistemology of science...I quit! fwiw, one of my brothers is a leading academician on the epistemology of science. Taught at UCLA for twenty years or so. Man, that guy is boring! lol

I was also going to point out (with respect) that "valid scientific observation" is quite a loaded term. Certainly the last thirty years give ample reasons to suspect "science" of having the same failings as its creators. i.e. biased, prone to corruption, and frequently wrong. Let's talk p values and statistical methodology, shall we? However, back on the topic of arboreal communication...this has been known for decades...I would say for tens of thousands of years, yet science pretends that a thing unproven by grant funded professors cannot rationally exist. Why is that? Druids have known since before Stonehenge that trees communicate, so catch up science! "Science" is a method, not a body of knowledge. And to the extent a body of knowledge is borne from prudent exercise of the method, the body of knowledge is less complete than complete. Re: non verbal communication - that is what music is, right? Perhaps this is a story of symbiotic intuition affecting group behavior? I dunno about you, but I am generally aware of the states of people's moods if I'm in proximity to them, certainly if I am engaged in a joint effort of some sort, and that awareness, both conscious and unconscious, mediates interaction. I used to play in a very good band and I clearly remember instances where we would lock into a pocket so tight that the energy in the room became something we could literally pass around to each other. It felt like a ball of energy and it was crazy fun, deeply powerful to get the chance to participate in. I was a lot like throwing a beach ball around, but crackly and slightly dangerous like it was alive and had expectations of its own.

I remember being trained on basic maintenance on a 2" Otari machine, can't remember model number. I did not find the experience conducive to inner peace. Tape and tape machines were a PITA and digital has, imo, utterly transcended it as both a storage and playback medium. The discussion on the musicality of the storage medium has been going on for a long time though - even before digital reared its head. The studio I cut my teeth on used 456 Grand Master and I had a hard time with other tape formulas. I remember drunkenly (and ignorantly) debating the affects particle density had on reproduction quality. Ah, good times! It's interesting how much of what we do in the engineering realm is data archive. Make as pristine or faithful recording as possible. Tweak it to a cartoon level caricature of the original so that it sounds emotionally engaging on myriad playback systems, all the while keeping an eye on distortion artifacts imposed by a given media. Some we like, some we don't. Some affinity is subjective, some is objective. I loathe .mp3 as a format. Hate it. I hate the theory behind it. Intentional mediocritization. Bleh. Also, playback device is hugely important. I cannot listen to any media on my phone. Sorry. I need a speaker larger than a gnats ass to reproduce sound that will garner my interest.