Sustain pedal on The Entertainer?

[konaboy]

I can't make up my mind on this. I hear guys pulsing the pedal to smooth and ring out the bass notes, but to me it sounds nice, but a bit fake and "cheating"?

 

Isn't there's a etiquette/myth that your not supposed to use sustain pedal for ragtime?

 

And it's good to leave the right foot free for stomping. You could pedal with right and stomp with left but I might fall of the stool.

 

What's your take on it? Do you do it?

 

What about Maple Leaf Rag?

[JamPro]

Yeah - I stay off the damper pedal when playing ragtime or stride piano.  Maybe I sustain the last notes at the very, but no more than that.  

 

Of course, my keyboard and pedal skills are pretty weak.  I am sure a more capable pianist could apply the pedal in a pleasing way, but I cannot so I leave it alone.

 

I do work to make the LH smooth without the pedal.

[CowboyNQ]

I’ve always played The Entertainer with pedal and Maple Leaf Rag without.  But I’m far from an expert on such matters, and I’ve not played either for years.

Here’s an expert:

 

 

[CEB]

Hell no.  There is a very limited place for sustain pedal in some Joplin.  MAYBE.  But then again I am no an absolute purist.   But not in the two pieces you mentioned.  I used to use some pedal in the intro of Solace but I don't anymore.  An interesting observation about my playing for those familiar with my stuff is.  Older I get less pedal I use.  The pedal use to be a mask for piss poor legato.

 

People do it.... People also play Joplin too fast.   Other than making a mess and screwing with the bounce, the pedal screws with the feel of the rh tie notes in ragtime.   

 

A good thing to do if someone has not done it is to carefully read and work through the 'School of Ragtime' by Joplin.  It isn't very long and it is a huge help if one is actually interested in ragtime.

 

This points to one reason I have yet to complete and release my 'Complete Works of Joplin'  I'll get destroyed by people even more dogmatic than myself.

[konaboy]

thanks all.

 

the player in the clip is awesome and a great interpretation. i wasn't sure if he was using the pedal throughout, except for some parts where it was clearly used for effect.

 

It was hard to tell because of that clangy and ringy piano.  which made me wonder, perhaps these old honky-tonk saloon pianos with worn dampers naturally have more sustain, so pedal is not necessary to sound smooth.

[konaboy]

one other related question, during this era I think music was often distributed on piano rolls, did this format support pedalling?

[CEB]

Yes, Pianola rolls do.  

[CEB]

That is the thing ... The pedal doesn't make you smother.  Solace without a pedal is a good teacher of this.

[Floyd Tatum]

This guy seems to know something about it.    As for me, I haven't played these in years, but if i remember correctly, I probably used a bit of pedal here and there, judiciously.   Pedal is good in small doses, sounds stupid if overdone.    Like most things in life!  😀      ( And don't forget to vary the dynamics here and there )   Re Martin Spitznagel,  at that tempo, I imagine he's hardly pedalling.   As for this guy below, he might be overdoing it a bit, (even though he's a DMA and I'm a 1/2 -BA.   Although, in his favour, he's in teaching mode) 

 

As a child, at some point I realized I was getting sloppy with sustain.  I think at some point, you have to spend time learning to control it.   I made a conscious effort to start each piece with my foot off the pedal, and keep it off until I thought I needed it, then off again.   Think of it as a brake pedal - you wouldn't want to ride the brake, right?   (Unless you're Walter Jr. 😄)    Although I guess there are some times when you actually do need to ride it, but not many.

[stoken6]

46 minutes ago, CEB said:

That is the thing ... The pedal doesn't make you smother.  Solace without a pedal is a good teacher of this.

Upvote for "Solace".

 

cheers, Mike.

[MathOfInsects]

There is no correct answer to this in isolation. “A la mode” would suggest no. But we have no obligation to play true to the 1800s or to the way the composer played it; we freely ignore this all the time, across all eras and at all levels. You need to stay away from the pedal for anything “ragged” in the timing and any fast runs, but for full chords and arpeggios IMO that’s a game-time decision by the player. I think that diminished arpeggio in Maple Leaf sounds better feathered and punctuated with the pedal, for example—it builds energy more effectively.

 

On the topic in general, like CEB I have grown farther and farther away from the pedal over time. I can go a whole gig without ever remembering I have it. Note duration and legato are key. 

[Al Quinn]

+1 Dave nailed it!

 

I've only developed some decent proficiency with this in recent years and find it very useful. It requires the player to become one with the various gradations of pedal movement and the resulting effect. It's a very interactive technique where the player is listening and making small adjustments to the pedal in realtime.

 

I could see using it to connect the bass notes to the LH chords in Maple Leaf Rag but done in a way where it doesn't sound like pedaling but, rather, creates a legato illusion that is physically impossible to play with just the hands. Hopefully, that makes sense.