iPad as a serious musical instrument

[Stokely]

re: Palmetto bugs, aka flying insectoid dinosaurs--Yeah my first year in college I had a New Yorker (came south to attend college).  First time he went to hit one from the wall it flew right onto his face, he screamed like a little girl.  Who knew they could fly?  Ok, I did but I wasn't about to tell him that  

I'm not sure if my ipad simply has some kind of issue.  It was never in the sun, doesn't have a case, but it is velcroed down flat on my Modx (which unfortunately meant that my drying fan on the ground couldn't reach it until I disconnected it and set it down on the ground).  I wonder if a bit of air under it might have helped (spacer).   It was hot to the touch.    The other two that went belly up were on mic stands that were getting sun.

Anyway, didn't mean to derail.  This is the 2nd time I couldn't use my ipad due to heat in two years, though the first time it was in direct sun (it snuck up on me between soundcheck and first set.)

[Reezekeys]

My take: your Modx case might have absorbed some heat from the ambient temperature and was warm? The case of the iPad needs to dissipate heat so if it's lying on a surface, that surface needs to be colder than the iPad otherwise the heat from its internals aren't going anywhere. That's my amateur thermodynamics theory anyway!

 

Last summer I traveled with my "emergency blanket" that I posted about earlier, also a white "DIY laptop shield" that folded flat (a storage cube from Ikea!) and fit in the SKB case underneath my A800. SOP now is when I get our schedule of summer gigs I check to see if they're outdoors, then google to find pictures to see if there's a roof of any kind. Forewarned is forearmed!

 

Could I avoid some of this if I was using hardware keyboards only? Maybe, maybe not. I can roll with these inconveniences because they're a minor percentage of all our gigs.

 

PS - as it happens I'm in the airport flying to Florida for AWB's first gig of the year - and there's currently a heat wave going on! The gig is indoors though. My first visit to the VILLAGES!!

[Baggypants]

On 4/3/2023 at 12:51 AM, o0Ampy0o said:

Have they adopted indoor heating in the North of England?

At these prices? An extra vest and yer big coat is all whats needed.

[AnotherScott]

I posted basically this in another thread, but I realized, it's something appropriate to post in this one:

 

This is probably my single biggest issue with an iPad-based rig: that compared to any other approach, you can more easily find yourself in some kind of unusable, unrecoverable, unfixable situation.

 

Say you do a software update, and then maybe one of your key apps stops working (and may even never get updated for the new OS). Screwed. So okay, to try to avoid that possibility, you can try to freeze your iPad at its current OS (and figure on using the device only for the known solid music environment you've created), but Apple keeps insisting on trying to update it, and someday, you'll tap the wrong thing, and it will happen. Or something will misbehave in some way where the only fix is to re-install... but you can't re-install the old OS, only the newest one. Unlike a Mac or PC, there's no way to re-install an old OS, there's not even any way to back up all your apps, they ended that after iOS 9. If you have a catastrophic failure (or theft, whatever) and need to replace the iPad (even if you acquire a used older one of the same generation that still has the old OS on it), you won't be able to re-install your old apps unless they are still available on the app store. They usually are... but if a developer is out of business or has pulled the product or is otherwise no longer paying their fee to Apple, it may be gone for good.

 

Of course, a hardware board can fail, and you may not be able to get a part to get it going again, but it's generally a less tenuous situation. At least (like a Mac or PC, but not an iPad), you can always look around for a used one, and install all your old programs onto it from your backup. With iOS, if there's a failure and you need to find a way to recreate the system you had, short of esoteric vintage gear, it is pretty much the only platform where there is a real possibility of not being able to.

[Stokely]

21 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

My take: your Modx case might have absorbed some heat from the ambient temperature and was warm? The case of the iPad needs to dissipate heat so if it's lying on a surface, that surface needs to be colder than the iPad otherwise the heat from its internals aren't going anywhere. That's my amateur thermodynamics theory anyway!

 

Last summer I traveled with my "emergency blanket" that I posted about earlier, also a white "DIY laptop shield" that folded flat (a storage cube from Ikea!) and fit in the SKB case underneath my A800. SOP now is when I get our schedule of summer gigs I check to see if they're outdoors, then google to find pictures to see if there's a roof of any kind. Forewarned is forearmed!

 

Could I avoid some of this if I was using hardware keyboards only? Maybe, maybe not. I can roll with these inconveniences because they're a minor percentage of all our gigs.

 

PS - as it happens I'm in the airport flying to Florida for AWB's first gig of the year - and there's currently a heat wave going on! The gig is indoors though. My first visit to the VILLAGES!!

Ah, the Villages   I have never played a gig there, only been through it.

Stopping at a store was...interesting.  I was mid-40s at the time and I reckon every single person I saw was more fit than I am (and I wasn't in bad shape at the time!)  Gleaming white teeth, lots of taut tan skin, full heads of hair and really skimpy attire...frankly it was a little weird but now that I'm a senior myself, who am I to knock it   Granted, I'm more likely to end up as a codger in a cabin up north than I will in the Villages, I'm not the most social type out there...

Apparently they love live music, this from a bandmate at the time that played out there a few times.

The suggestion of the ipad not cooling because it was on the Modx did occur to me...the Modx didn't seem hot at all but perhaps some airspace between the two would have helped.   Ironically if I hadn't purposefully used such a short usb cable to neaten things up, I could have just set the ipad on the ground in front of my fan and continued using it  

[Reezekeys]

44 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

This is probably my single biggest issue with an iPad-based rig: that compared to any other approach, you can more easily find yourself in some kind of unusable, unrecoverable, unfixable situation.

 

While there are some risks as you mention, I wouldn't say the situation is as dire as you make it out to be! 🙂 

 

My old iPhone SE is currently at it's "newest" iOS and everything is working. Can't accidently update it to a newer one, as Apple won't let me do it even if I want to! Also, you can turn OFF Settings-> General-> Software Updates-> Automatic Updates.

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but if you do a manual backup - not an iCloud backup - then everything in the phone is backed up, including the OS. I also googled "roll back iOS updates" and very quickly found this: https://www.iphonelife.com/content/how-to-downgrade-software-versions-iphone

 

I also believe that software you download from the app store is always available to re-download - an Apple requirement for devs.

 

I have never "automatically" updated any OS software on either my laptops or i-devices. My manual OS updates are few & far between too. On the computer I usually install a new OS on an external drive, re-install my music sw there and test thoroughly before updating my boot volume. iOS is a little riskier so I google for any mentions of the sw I use misbehaving with new iOS or iPad OS.

 

Anyway, count me as a "glass half full" guy when it comes to this stuff! I've updated my iOS/iPadOS once or twice with no ill effects, and the laptop music rig I use for gigging is on a separate partition of my boot drive frozen (for now) on Mojave - just updated my "main" partition to Big Sur (as far as my late-2013 MBP can go) and I kinda wish I had stayed on Mojave there too (no real issues except all the changes in the UI that I have to get used to!).

[Stokely]

I'd just always have a backup plan.  Heck the reason I bring two keyboards to most gigs is partly for that reason (and partly because it's easier to play a lot of songs, though of course it's a bit more work to load in and set up).

For me, if the ipad died on me with an organ tune coming up, I'd use the Modx organ, or play piano or something if I felt I could.   

I wouldn't feel comfortable as a phone, ipad or computer as a single point of failure but I know many of you have pulled it off for a long time.  If I was better at guitar that could be my fallback option  

[stoken6]

26 minutes ago, Stokely said:

If I was better at guitar that could be my fallback option  

Nah, that's boring. The sound of keys (AP, EP, Organ, synth ...) make any band more interesting. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

Ah, the Villages   I have never played a gig there, only been through it.
 

[...]

Apparently they love live music, this from a bandmate at the time that played out there a few times.

 

You ain't kidding. We're playing the "arts center" tonight. Got here yesterday around suppertime, took a stroll to the "village square" - is this a typical Tuesday night there?

 

There was another band playing at the restaurant where I ate dinner.

 

[SamuelBLupowitz]

1 minute ago, Reezekeys said:

 

You ain't kidding. We're playing the "arts center" tonight. Got here yesterday around suppertime, took a stroll to the "village square" - is this a typical Tuesday night there?

 

Most of my dad's generation and older on his side of the family have migrated down there over the past 25 years. It's where sex, (prescription) drugs, and rock 'n' roll go to live out their last days in comfort!

[Stokely]

I didn't stay long but that matches what I've heard.   Kind of cool to see people obviously there for music.  Sadly it's almost always older folks or the really young ones at our gigs.  The middle years couldn't give a crap.

Fortunately doesn't look like rain for the next few days.  That cover wouldn't be much help against Florida rain.  92 degrees, bring towels, plenty to drink and hopefully you have a fan (Lasko for the win!).  You did say night, we still have decent temps in the evening so that is good.  By summer it's just hot all day and night.

[Reezekeys]

We're indoors - the "Savannah Center", where the bigger acts play - so rain won't be a worry.

 

I believe Debbie Boone & Paul Anka were recently there. I guess we're in that category now! 🙂 

[Mills Dude]

My ex's cousin lives in the Villages and her family has property in Orlando, so I've been there a bunch of times.  Its is a mecca for live music. There's something going on every day either in the squares or in the many restaurants that dot the squares.

 

A dude I used to play with moved down to Leesburg more than 10 years ago. He does a one-man band gig, Jersey Frank, at restaurants playing guitar with an iPad for backing tracks. He's got gigs up the wazoo playing mostly late 60s and 70s tunes.

 

Since its all seniors, the prime time is in the 4-8pm range, happy hour.  I guess after that is when they all go wild and give each other STDs 😄. I've definitely thought about retiring there and maybe getting some gigs. The place is a time machine, a way to relive the glory days. Even the 2 bowling alleys there are filled every night with league bowlers, something else that's died out everywhere. Just wish it was closer to the Gulf or the Atlantic.

[HammondDave]

8 hours ago, Stokely said:

I'd just always have a backup plan.  Heck the reason I bring two keyboards to most gigs is partly for that reason (and partly because it's easier to play a lot of songs, though of course it's a bit more work to load in and set up).

For me, if the ipad died on me with an organ tune coming up, I'd use the Modx organ, or play piano or something if I felt I could.   

I wouldn't feel comfortable as a phone, ipad or computer as a single point of failure but I know many of you have pulled it off for a long time.  If I was better at guitar that could be my fallback option  

Exactly!  In my typical rig if any one component out of three goes down I have backup. I only need one of the two keyboards in a worse case situation. If my iPad goes down i can play the EP, AP, and synth sounds from my MODX. If my MODX goes down I can play those sounds from my iPad controlled by the MOJO. And if my MOJO goes down I can play B3x from my iPad controlled by the MODX. I like redundancy. 

[Reezekeys]

The backup to my iPhone/iPad setup is a second iPhone with the same software loaded up and sleeping. Also, a small 5-pin midi interface and Korg NanoKontrol if I need to use a different keyboard. That's actually more of a backup than when I was laptop-only.

 

The Villages gig went OK, they have a very good crew there. I need to work on my setup a bit more - lots of stuff to balance correctly. The iPhone's headphone output is much hotter than my MacBook Pro's. I was actually hitting the limiter on my Rolls in-ears box - and it wasn't pretty!

[HammondDave]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

The backup to my iPhone/iPad setup is a second iPhone with the same software loaded up and sleeping. Also, a small 5-pin midi interface and Korg NanoKontrol if I need to use a different keyboard. That's actually more of a backup than when I was laptop-only.

 

The Villages gig went OK, they have a very good crew there. I need to work on my setup a bit more - lots of stuff to balance correctly. The iPhone's headphone output is much hotter than my MacBook Pro's. I was actually hitting the limiter on my Rolls in-ears box - and it wasn't pretty!

How do you have your iPad and iPhone constantly sync up changes in your set lists, sounds, etc? 

[Reezekeys]

7 hours ago, HammondDave said:

How do you have your iPad and iPhone constantly sync up changes in your set lists, sounds, etc? 

 

Very easy - airdrop. Takes a few seconds. TBH, in my case there's usually not a ton of changes happening with the sounds themselves, and I don't have set lists programmed anywhere. It's mostly adjusting levels so they're similar to what our sound crew was seeing from my laptop. I might add an eq or efx plugin to a channel - but my gigging setup is pretty much complete.

 

One advantage to the i-device world (which is probably applicable to Android devices as well) is the ecosystem where you can install a purchased app on a number of your devices, also the cloud integration so files like samples can be shared between them. Airdrop is even more convenient, a direct transfer between devices. I found my daughter's old iPhone 6S which I may install my stuff onto, to have another backup - can't hurt.

[aronnelson]

On 4/5/2023 at 3:36 AM, AnotherScott said:

I posted basically this in another thread, but I realized, it's something appropriate to post in this one:

 

This is probably my single biggest issue with an iPad-based rig: that compared to any other approach, you can more easily find yourself in some kind of unusable, unrecoverable, unfixable situation.

This is so true. Apps are always having problems when Apple updates iOS. I mean, even when they don't, XCode really screw with the developers. XCode will update, and just like that, the next day your app won't compile. If we didn't have Google search we would be done. One day it works, the next day no. It used to be if you used a standard control in an operating system, then it would be good for a while. Not with Apple, they change frames all the time screwing up your app. And then there is the problem of your app working fine (as in a game) and if they decide that you haven't updated it enough, they remove it from the App Store. 

 

And let's not talk about people having auto-update on, and before the gig, it decides to auto-update but then the update gets...... stuck....

[Reezekeys]

Sorry to hear it's such a risk and hassle for some of you using Apple devices to make music on. I haven't experienced that myself - not yet anyway. Then again I have an old iPhone dedicated only to music apps - frozen at iOS 15.x-something (can't go further, it's too old). Auto-update is off – wasn't that hard to do. I'll hang like this for as long as it works for me. Sure, some day I'll see a cool new app I'll want to use, or maybe add more plugins to my rig and bog the CPU down enough where I'll need a newer device. Does that scenario sound familiar? It might - it's kinda like with computers in general isn't it? I bet my upgrade cycle is a lot less frequent than those with hardware keyboards - my MacBook Pro is 10 years old and still humming along quite nicely. This isn't to discount complaints from devs that have to deal with Apple "changing the rules", I can definitely see where that might be frustrating. I've dealt with a few bumps in the road myself, having used software for almost 20 years and exclusively for about 12 under many different MacOSes. Snow Leopard was the most trouble-free iirc, but I've somehow managed to make things work for me no matter the Mac – or currently, iOS – version I'm on. If I'm just lucky, I guess I can only hope my luck continues!

[AnotherScott]

On 4/5/2023 at 10:18 AM, Reezekeys said:

While there are some risks as you mention, I wouldn't say the situation is as dire as you make it out to be! 🙂 

I didn't mean to make it sound dire. 😉 Using an iPad is definitely workable, but it does have a long term "tenuous" status that most other approaches (hardware or software) do not. But your solution of maintaining a couple of backups really does a nice job of addressing that pretty well. In fact, I suppose you can  turn this around and make it a positive... If you want a rig you can completely recover from quickly in the event of catastrophe, having another i-device to pull out that you can connect to whatever controller is a pretty compact, portable, and relatively inexpensive redundancy, compared to having to replace a hardware rig, or even a portion of one. (Though a laptop would also give you that benefit, without the risks... albeit at typically higher cost and other tradeoffs.)

 

On 4/5/2023 at 10:18 AM, Reezekeys said:

My old iPhone SE is currently at it's "newest" iOS and everything is working. Can't accidently update it to a newer one, as Apple won't let me do it even if I want to!

Yes, if you can run your system on a device that can't be updated, so much the better! 🙂

 

On 4/5/2023 at 10:18 AM, Reezekeys said:

Also, you can turn OFF Settings-> General-> Software Updates-> Automatic Updates.

That stops it from automatically updating, but instead, it periodically nags you. And you only have to accidentally tap the wrong button once...

 

On 4/5/2023 at 10:18 AM, Reezekeys said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but if you do a manual backup - not an iCloud backup - then everything in the phone is backed up, including the OS.

AFAIK, whether cloud or local, it only backs up your data (settings, personal content), along with a list of apps which it will recover from the app store (assuming they're available). OS is always freshly installed.

 

On 4/5/2023 at 10:18 AM, Reezekeys said:

I also googled "roll back iOS updates" and very quickly found this: https://www.iphonelife.com/content/how-to-downgrade-software-versions-iphone

Yeah, but it doesn't really work. From that link:

 

 

You cannot currently restore anything below 16 (unless your device can't take 16, in which case any reinstall will restore the last OS it can take).

 

On 4/5/2023 at 10:18 AM, Reezekeys said:

I also believe that software you download from the app store is always available to re-download - an Apple requirement for devs.

 

I'm pretty sure that's not the case. And Apple itself can pull apps, for all kinds of reasons.

 

[RABid]

I tried to like the iPad for music. I really did. But there are so many barriers that moving back to the Macbook Pro feels like being set free. I’m typing this post on my iPad Pro while getting my car serviced. It is great for that. But Apple’s decision to remove the headphone jack did it in for me. The difference between my $1500 iPad and my $2500 MacBook Pro is unreal. I’m done with music on the iPad. Too restrictive. Too many hoops to jump through. Too risky that my favorite music apps will suddenly be marked as “developer needs to update program” and be barred from loading.

[Stokely]

There's a difference between using devices made for the purpose vs using general-purpose devices.   For some people (raises hand) using the latter does feel tenous.  Even in gaming--my xbox never had the issues I've had over the years on my pc...that said, the "ceiling" is higher on the pc, I can get better graphics if I pay for it, I can install mods etc.  But the xbox just works because it's (largely) only intended to play games.

Not to say that an xbox, or keyboard, can't have a bug or hardware failure.

And at home, I happily use a general-purpose device (computer) because it has orders of magnitude more power and convenience vs wiring up a bunch of keyboards, modules and fx units and using some hardware sequencer (been there, done that!).  If I have issues--and I have--it's no big deal because I'm not at a gig and don't work professionally.  If I was working professionally, I'd be stricter about limiting software upgrades and I'd very likely have a 2nd computer ready to roll, and I'd probably not have such a machine on the internet.

[AnotherScott]

Yes, there are differences between dedicated and general purpose devices, and it's one reason some people are committed to hardware-only approaches. But there are also notable differences between the possible general purpose devices (Mac, PC, iOS), each with their own advantages and disadvantages relative to the other.

[Reezekeys]

I guess this is making me look like some kind of fanboy - I'm not, really! Some of these comments are spurring me to respond though.

 

52 minutes ago, RABid said:

But Apple’s decision to remove the headphone jack did it in for me. The difference between my $1500 iPad and my $2500 MacBook Pro is unreal.

 

You should try their $270 iPad then - still sold new, with the headphone jack, and powerful enough to run a music rig (imo; my rig for sure - of course ymmv).

 

(It's normally $330 but I see Walmart has it on sale for $270).

 

55 minutes ago, RABid said:

Too risky that my favorite music apps will suddenly be marked as “developer needs to update program” and be barred from loading.

 

I've never seen nor heard of this - you're saying you pick up your iPad one day, tap to load one of your apps and it suddenly won't?

 

I see it like this: Apple is not in business to make devices specifically for me to do gigs with. The iPad is a very "general purpose" computing device obviously intended for light computing and media consumption. Some talented and imaginative music software developers applied their skills to make it a very workable musician's platform (imo). Of course doing this involves compromises. I have to take responsibility for when and how my software updates. I have to spend time at home to understand the "gotchas" of having all my software work well together. I have to sometimes troubleshoot things and come up with workarounds when I see what looks like bugs (looking at you, Midiflow!). It's OK - I put in the time, my stuff is (currently) running fine, I'm not making any major changes, and I thoroughly test even minor ones. Not everyone thinks this kind of investment is worth the trouble; for me it is. I carried my laptop and its SKB case around for 15 years. I now have a 10lb controller and pocketable or super-portable device that gives me almost what I had from my laptop; a setup for gigs that imo rivals the features of many workstation keyboards - features I can change, add to, and otherwise configure exactly how I like to use anytime I want. For this kind of power I'll accept the potential downsides.

 

(I have only one "wish list" item for music-making i-devices: the ability to set up an "aggregate device" like on the Mac, so I can use both the headphone output and a small USB sound card. As far as I can tell, this cannot be done).

[bfields]

The thing that always worries me about the strategy of never updating is the lack of security patches.

 

in theory you could also just leave a phone in airplane mode all the time, and maybe that would be good enough--but not if you want to install new apps or do cloud backups.

 

I don't know, maybe old phones aren't just a high enough target or something--it seems like I don't hear about an epidemic of hacking even though I know a lot of people are running old phones that are probably vulnerable.  It makes me uneasy to depend on that, and I personally replace phones as soon as they stop getting updates.

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, bfields said:

The thing that always worries me about the strategy of never updating is the lack of security patches.

 

in theory you could also just leave a phone in airplane mode all the time, and maybe that would be good enough--but not if you want to install new apps or do cloud backups.

 

As I mentioned before, my old iPhone's iOS can't be updated. I have no motivation to update the music apps I run on it either - everything is working. It's also in perpetual airplane mode, since I only use it for gigs - and then only gigs where I don't need to read charts. That's exactly one band I work with.

 

As far as my iPad 9G which I do use for music and everything else, I usually wait a while to install updates but have definitely updated its iOS at least once, along with several music (and other) apps. I go online with it but just for youtube or web browsing on familiar web pages, etc. Is this dangerous? I don't get the sense that it is. If iPads were being hacked by users doing the kinds of things I do, I think I'd have heard about it. We all know (and often complain about) Apple's "walled garden", but maybe that's why I don't ever hear about people needing to wipe their i-devices because it got infected with a virus. Am I missing something?

[AnotherScott]

58 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

(I have only one "wish list" item for music-making i-devices: the ability to set up an "aggregate device" like on the Mac, so I can use both the headphone output and a small USB sound card. As far as I can tell, this cannot be done).

 

might the Zoom U-24 give you what you need? Okay, it's bigger than the iPhone itself, but still pretty small and light.

[Reezekeys]

33 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

might the Zoom U-24 give you what you need? Okay, it's bigger than the iPhone itself, but still pretty small and light.

 

Yea I was thinking of that one. For small & light it's not gonna beat this tiny USB soundcard though! I wish I could use this to add an additional stereo output bus. Can't have this and the headphone outputs at the same time on an iOS or iPadOS device though.

 

[Reezekeys]

12 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

On 4/5/2023 at 10:18 AM, Reezekeys said:

Also, you can turn OFF Settings-> General-> Software Updates-> Automatic Updates.

That stops it from automatically updating, but instead, it periodically nags you. And you only have to accidentally tap the wrong button once...

 

I guess I'm just gonna have to live dangerously then! 🙂 

 

12 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

On 4/5/2023 at 10:18 AM, Reezekeys said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but if you do a manual backup - not an iCloud backup - then everything in the phone is backed up, including the OS.

AFAIK, whether cloud or local, it only backs up your data (settings, personal content), along with a list of apps which it will recover from the app store (assuming they're available). OS is always freshly installed.

 

I was wrong, apps are indeed not backed up with a local backup as I thought (they may have been in the past though - I remember seeing files for each app I had in some backup files, this was a while ago though).

 

12 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

On 4/5/2023 at 10:18 AM, Reezekeys said:

I also googled "roll back iOS updates" and very quickly found this: https://www.iphonelife.com/content/how-to-downgrade-software-versions-iphone

Yeah, but it doesn't really work. From that link:

 

 

You cannot currently restore anything below 16 (unless your device can't take 16, in which case any reinstall will restore the last OS it can take).

 

You can't restore via Apple's method. According to a little googling I've done however, there are 3rd-party apps that will let you load unsigned ipsw files so, yes it can be done.

 

12 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

On 4/5/2023 at 10:18 AM, Reezekeys said:

I also believe that software you download from the app store is always available to re-download - an Apple requirement for devs.

 

I'm pretty sure that's not the case. And Apple itself can pull apps, for all kinds of reasons.

 

Again, I may be wrong on apps always being available, but 3rd party apps do seem to exist that lets one save and restore apps that are already in the i-device. Here's one – not vetted by me! –  just a page that turned up in a quick google search: https://www.copytrans.net/support/how-to-backup-iphone-apps-without-itunes/

 

This is not to say it's a walk in the park to restore an i-device to earlier iOSes or app versions in case one gets into serious trouble. Point is, it's not impossible! Having said all this, I think the issue as a whole is being overblown a bit. I'd be curious to hear an actual first-hand account of someone encountering a situation where they updated an i-device & as a consequence got screwed out of using an app they needed, with no recourse. If that indeed happened, was it an automatic update that the user didn't bother disabling? Or did the user update their mission-critical app only because they got a notice an update was available? Again, maybe not 100% user-error, but updating a perfectly-functioning app only because of a notice is maybe not the best idea.

[RABid]

I've been on iPad since the first one came out years ago. I game on it more than anything, but I have bought plenty of synths and music apps over the years. It seems that with every major OS version update I loose a few favorite apps. They start out sitting on the iPad, but when I try to load them I get the "developer needs to update this program to work on the latest OS" and the program is blocked from loading. Me and many others went shopping for old iPads with original OS's still installed. Apple countered by removing those programs from their cloud. So yes, programs do disappear from the Apple app cloud.