iPad as a serious musical instrument

[Paul Woodward]

A few threads related to using iPads, but thought it deserved its own discussion. I know little beats a dedicated piano or organ board, or even dedicated synth, but the iPad has developed into a versatile musical device. Even the free GarageBand sounds great and has taken a lot of features from its bigger brother; Logic Pro. Just a few reasons I favour an iPad:

1. It’s got some serious processing power, even more than some of the best workstations.

2. You can use it as a sound module, fully fledged DAW or effects processor

3. It can connect to a Mac as a module and transmit audio and midi over one cable.

4. Quite a few board (Yamaha for instance) can integrate an iPad with just a single cable

5. It can also display music, provide backing tracks, set lists etc.

6. It’s a large touch screen device bigger than most workstations offer

7. It detaches and becomes a media device for gaming, movies, even office work.

8. Coupled with a mini key, it’s about the smallest and lightest portable DAW or practice setup you can get

9. It got a good 10 hours of battery life and can even power some boards connected to it

10. It’s almost endless in terms of expanding sound sets, features etc.

I could go on, but you get the idea. Apps can also be ridiculously cheap compared to desktop options.

I think the iPad can be overlooked by serious musicians but you only have to look at some of the top end apps to see how good this little device can be. Some of us don’t think twice about paying a hundred pounds for a sound pack, you can get a used iPad for that!

 

 

[yannis D]

Oh man, this Korg! 😅😉

And yes, the iPads are getting as serious as laptops and hardware synths. Beyond our "idées fixes" , these are powerful tools, cheap, with many great sounds and good processing power. Most serious companies are working towards ipad apps on parallel with their laptop VSTs. 

I guess in some years iPads will totally replace MacBooks on stage as sound source

[Paul Woodward]

2 minutes ago, yannis D said:

Oh man, this Korg! 😅😉

And yes, the iPads are getting as serious as laptops and hardware synths. Beyond our "idées fixes" , these are powerful tools, cheap, with many great sounds and good processing power. Most serious companies are working towards ipad apps on parallel with their laptop VSTs. 

I guess in some years iPads will totally replace MacBooks on stage as sound source

I imagine you can already run a whole set from the iPad as your backing band, and instrument processor…then watch a movie on the way back from the gig.

[Stokely]

I have used one for most of a year as my main b3 organ.  It sounds great, but I still don't like relying on it.  It feels....shaky.  And indeed I've had a few glitches here or there.  I've had CCKs just stop working (i now bring a backup).  I've forgotted to charge it (which admittedly is my fault), and while I have a charging adapter it takes a while before it gets enough juice to really start (and it wouldn't let me get out of low power mode or change the 2 minute screen lock until it had powered up for a while).   I've had it stop seeing my interface (Modx) out of nowhere, thankfully not often.  I have a backup plan, which is to use an organ patch on the Modx.  

I feel the same about computers even though at home they are all I use.  I just like to hit a switch live and have things work simply with gear made for the purpose.  I like my setup to be a quick and no-brainer as possible.  No midi, no complex routing etc.  That said, I bought set list maker so I'll be using it for that at least.  I got an sk pro so I don't really use it for sound generation unless I do a one-keyboard gig with my Modx.

[Paul Woodward]

While it’s rare, I have had boards freeze up, behave erratically and even completely crash/reboot so it’s any technology. Anything digital is prone to glitches, just as analogue gear is prone to mechanical failure. Hell, even band members can cock up 😉

Personally I have found iPads to be rock solid in everyday use and for making music. 

[ElmerJFudd]

The hardware differences between M1/2 Macs and iPad Pros have blurred. The shift to Apple Silicon bodes well for iPad OS and macOS merging at some point.  
 

It’s already relatively easy for Audio Unit developers to prepare their instruments and effects software to run on both - mainly with additional visualization work to be done.  Similarly they already have iOS/iPad apps running on macOS.   
 

I hope to see the limitations on application and sample library size on iPad disappear.  And for Apple to bring full MainStage to iPad OS and allow purchase of AU plugins through the App Store, or as IAP through MainStage - I’m not sure what the technical problems with that are.  
 

At the same time - perhaps what they need to be doing is developing a touch screen GUI for macOS and release convertible MacBooks.  I would buy a MacBook Air that flips or disconnects into a tablet today.  

[CEB]

I’m really interested in an iPad. I looked at iPads on Amazon last night and the options range from around $200 to over $1500. Not sure what I need.   I use a Android tablet to run MobileSheetsPro. I wonder if I can multi task sound apps and a chart app on a iPad?

[Stokely]

I have done so on my somewhat-old 4th gen ipad.  B-3X, my lyrics app, a mixer app (which one depending on which mixer!), all running together.  I just run B-3X standalone, no AUM or Keystage or anything like that.   Apps have to be able to play in the background if you do it like this.   I have tested having 3 instrument apps all running standalone playing from one split performance on my Modx, worked fine.  Each was set to respond to a different midi channel, and on the Modx I set up 3 zones transmitting on those midi  channels.

Good point about keyboards malfunctioning.  Been there, done that.  I'll admit my reticence to fully embrace live ipad/computer usage--especially considering my love for "in the box" at home--isn't entirely logical!

[ElmerJFudd]

12 minutes ago, CEB said:

I’m really interested in an iPad. I looked at iPads on Amazon last night and the options range from around $200 to over $1500. Not sure what I need.   I use an Android tablet to run MobileSheetsPro. I wonder if I can multi task sound apps and a chart app on a iPad?

Mobile Sheets is also available through the Microsoft Windows Store. You could compare iPad/iPad Pro with something like a Windows convertible (Surface, Surface Pro, many others) for example and see which would meet your needs better.  
 

I use an 11” iPad Pro with forScore and like it a lot.  The screen quality, lightweight, long battery life.  But I haven’t really gotten into using it as a musical instrument or sound supplement to a digital piano other than the included garage band.  

[To B3]

Any luck in using it with the Roland VR-09? Would like to know if anybody used the VR-09 to control the GSi Rotary on the iPad... Are the fast/slow controls of the app assignable to physical controls of the keyboard?

[ABECK]

I will always prefer a dedicated hardware board, as typically everything in the box is dedicated and designed to work together without fuss.  That being said, I have been super impressed with Vb3m on my iPad.  My iPad is primarily for charts, but on single board gigs, where I am not bringing my Gemini/DMC122, the iPad is a simple way to get a proper tonewheel sound.  I don't think I'd favor bringing JUST the iPad and a controller.  But as an extra, it's damn nice.

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, CEB said:

I wonder if I can multi task sound apps and a chart app on a iPad?

 

Yes I do that all the time on my iPad 9G, the cheapest and least powerful iPad you can buy new as of now. I have ForScore going along with AUM hosting a multitude of instrument and effects plugins, at a very playable 128 buffer. No issues here. More detail on my setup in the "I want a modern Kurz..." thread you started.

 

The key with an i-rig is to just spend time & do gigs with it; you'll find out the quirks and what works and what doesn't. My last AWB gig at Jazz Alley in Seattle was six shows over four nights on an iPhone SE. Since it was my first time using the phone on that gig I had my usual laptop setup running also but with the audio not hooked up - so in case of a problem I could quickly switch a cable and keep going. I never needed to do that; there was not one glitch with the phone. I did discover some peculiarities in the weeks leading up to the gig but figured out solutions or workarounds. In that sense an i-rig may not be as "safe" as hardware but I was more than willing to put in the time to make it work. Right now, on my newer iPad 9G I haven't had a single issue on a gig, zero, no audio glitches, sounds failing to load, etc. Nothing at all, it just works.

[cphollis]

Can an iPad be used as a performance musical instrument?  Certainly. 

Was it designed to gig with?  Certainly not.

 

The question is whether or not you're willing to put up with the required adaptations:

- sensitive, fiddly UI not designed for the fog of war

- crappy lightning connector, although USB C is better

- external adapters/cables required

- needs both input and output connected to even know if it's working

- runs very reliably until it doesn't

 

If someone built a decent midi controller with a baked-in slot for my recent iPad that supplied I/O and power, I would take a *very* hard look at it.

[Stokely]

Yamaha Modx (and other yamahas) has part of that down, it doesn't do power.  One cable handles midi and audio and you get a separate volume control for it.  Obviously this is not just a controller.   I think it's better for a live gig simply because you have fallback options with the built-in sound.  No baked-in slot (like the old alesis I think it was that had the 30 pin connector), but I just velcro the ipad down and it looks and acts like a second screen

Studiologic has something similar I think with several models.

[AnotherScott]

1 minute ago, cphollis said:

- sensitive, fiddly UI not designed for the fog of war

 

To some extent, you can say that about anything with a touchscreen interface. And as touchscreens go, iPads are state of the art. Most of what you find on keyboards are resistive rather than capacitive, and/or have "targets" that are small and fussy to hit and/or have text that is not alway easy to read, especially at angles (and being internal, you usually can't do much about the angle). OTOH. you have the option of even a 12.9" iPad where everything is likely to be comfortably large.

 

Some times you'll always want a hard button/slider... but that's at least as much of an argument for keyboards with well-placed definable controls as it is against an iPad or other touchscreen.

 

[Docbop]

6 minutes ago, cphollis said:

Can an iPad be used as a performance musical instrument?  Certainly. 

Was it designed to gig with?  Certainly not.

 

The question is whether or not you're willing to put up with the required adaptations:

- sensitive, fiddly UI not designed for the fog of war

- crappy lightning connector, although USB C is better

- external adapters/cables required

- needs both input and output connected to even know if it's working

- runs very reliably until it doesn't

 

If someone built a decent midi controller with a baked-in slot for my recent iPad that supplied I/O and power, I would take a *very* hard look at it.

 

Recently I was listening to one of Apple fanboy podcasts and they brought out Apple doesn't didn't plan or want iPad to replacement for a desktop or laptop.    That explains why iPadOS doesn't have all the features of a real OS.    Apple sees the iPad as your portable device to use like a notepad and bring the content back to your desktop or laptop via iCloud    So people are pushing the iPad further than Apple intended.  From a hardware standpoint it's got the horsepower, but throttles it with iPadOS.   

 

So will Apple the company that's all about selling a ecosystem of multiple devices open up iPad more really hard to say.   Part of the answer could be in how Apple M-series computers some of the iPadOS and iOS apps work. I am running a couple iPadOS apps on my MacBook Air M2, but not all will run yet.   So at this point they are letting iOS/iPadOS run on OSX, but not the other direction.   

[AnotherScott]

4 minutes ago, Docbop said:

Recently I was listening to one of Apple fanboy podcasts and they brought out Apple doesn't didn't plan or want iPad to replacement for a desktop or laptop.    That explains why iPadOS doesn't have all the features of a real OS.    Apple sees the iPad as your portable device to use like a notepad and bring the content back to your desktop or laptop via iCloud    So people are pushing the iPad further than Apple intended.  From a hardware standpoint it's got the horsepower, but throttles it with iPadOS. 

 

I think the "throttling back" is also because the hand-held and tightly-packed fan-less iPad design goals necessarily also needed to include minimizing heat generation and maximizing battery life. Whereas the largely "sitting at a desk" and larger, actively cooled macbook designs would logically tilt that goal balance more toward performance instead.

[Reezekeys]

19 minutes ago, cphollis said:

Can an iPad be used as a performance musical instrument?  Certainly. 

Was it designed to gig with?  Certainly not

 

My laptop sure wasn't "designed to gig with" but I somehow managed to do it for the last 16 years.

 

28 minutes ago, cphollis said:

- sensitive, fiddly UI not designed for the fog of war

- crappy lightning connector, although USB C is better

- external adapters/cables required

- needs both input and output connected to even know if it's working

- runs very reliably until it doesn't

 

 "Fiddly UI"? I don't need to touch my iPad during a gig - all parameters are assigned to what's on my midi controller. I hear ya on the connectors - that's a bit of a downside but not close to a dealbreaker for me.

 

What relevance does "runs very reliably until it doesn't" have with i-devices in particular? Couldn't you could say that about any and every device?!

 

Like what you like, use what you want. I like small, light, powerful, portable, expandable and convenient (e.g. charts along with sounds). I have it all now. Again, not for everybody, and of course we can all look at things with the "glass half empty" approach. Just my 2p.

[Docbop]

7 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

I think the "throttling back" is also because the hand-held and tightly-packed fan-less iPad design goals necessarily also needed to include minimizing heat generation and maximizing battery life. Whereas the largely "sitting at a desk" and larger, actively cooled macbook designs would logically tilt that goal balance more toward performance instead.

That would be part of it and Apple has resisted touch interface on computers and laptops.  My guess in part create that extra device for the ecosystem.  

[Ibarch]

An ipad would be a great setup except for one thing - ipadOS. 

Imagine a world where you could use the tens of thousands of virtual instruments, DAWs, audio applications that already exist. That would run full desktop powered versions of all your applications. With a touch screen. 

But Apple says no. So they cripple their tablets with a phone OS designed for 2008 hardware. You have a few hundred cut down apps that you have to buy again. Yes, the developers are doing some amazing stuff to work around the limitations but it could be so much better. It doesn't have to be like this. 

 

Imagine a full workstation in a tablet format which runs all my audio software. Us Window users don't have to imagine. Welcome to Microsoft Surface Pro. See my setup below. This has all the benefits of the iPad with a laptop thrown on top. 

 

This is not a mac v pc p*ssing contest. I genuinely feel for MacOS users. They should be able to have this full 2023 experience too, no Windows necessary. They shouldn't have to be stuck with lack of such options. It is about time all the fan boys and girls stopped defending everything Apple and called them properly to account. 

[Stokely]

That Surface Pro is tempting, if it indeed can run VSTs at low latency.  Talking Kontakt, Diva, Repro etc.   I honestly know next to little about them.  I'm certainly not married to Mac (which I use in my studio) or IOS (which I don't particularly like)

The problem with laptops is where to put them, and with a mini I'd need a monitor.  That could be velcroed down as I do my ipad currently...hmmm...

[Paul Woodward]

1 hour ago, To B3 said:

Any luck in using it with the Roland VR-09? Would like to know if anybody used the VR-09 to control the GSi Rotary on the iPad... Are the fast/slow controls of the app assignable to physical controls of the keyboard?

I have iPad and VR09, I have wondered if the drawbars will operate virtual drawbars in apps. The A800 can as long as you set up profiles using the desktop editor.

[Ibarch]

The one missing piece is a wireless low latency interface. Then I can lose the last cable. 

Yes I can run Bluetooth midi but the latency kills it. 

[Stokely]

I'm guessing the VR09's drawbars won't send the type of midi you need, unless they took a different approach from my VR-700.  And that is possible, because the old VK-8 I think DID send midi in a usable format.  Roland for whatever reason went back and forth on sending midi ccs via drawbars.  My VR700 sent sysex iirc instead of regular ol midi ccs.  Very irritating.

I have only used B-3X, not VB3, but I reckon its similar.  In the app, there's a list of controllable destinations, and you can map incoming midi message (sustain pedal, cc numbers, mod wheel etc) to those destinations.  I had leslie gain being controlled by the Modx "super knob" (cc 95 by default), I had the tube screamer on/off on the mod wheel and so on.

 

[Ibarch]

5 minutes ago, Stokely said:

That Surface Pro is tempting, if it indeed can run VSTs at low latency.  Talking Kontakt, Diva, Repro etc.   I honestly know next to little about them.  I'm certainly not married to Mac (which I use in my studio) or IOS (which I don't particularly like)

It absolutely can. As low as the  interface you plug it into. 

[Stokely]

Can I ask what you use on your surface pro to load the VSTs (or do you use them standalone)?  Obviously mainstage won't work, I know there are other similar things out there.

[Ibarch]

I run Ableton live when gigging. In the studio happy with the standalone applications of Keyscape, Omnisphere, Addictive Keys etc just to play. When recording I use Cubase. 

[Nathanael_I]

MSFT Sufaces are great. Solid hardware. Mac level nice. And quite nice for real audio apps. Remember - laptops worked great for live performance 10 years ago!  The current gen ones do it in their spare time!  It’s 2023. My iPad has the same M1 chip and RAM as a laptop.  These hardware platforms crush a workstations little Atom or Raspberry processors.  Any current “nice” laptop from MSFT or Apple, or the current iPad’s are great platforms for audio. Not okay platforms. Great platforms. 
 

My M1 Max laptop is as powerful as my i9-9900k overclocked video edit box!  This laptop can crush what was a top of the line DAW four years ago!  Audio is practically free on these new platforms. 
 

The Apple Silicon and new Intel 13xxx chips are spectacularly capable for audio. The old Windows issues are long, long gone for latency. Win 10 and 11 are very stable. 
 

producers are making top40 music on iPads and headphones. To the OPs point, these are serious music tools. 
 

I would add that the iPad can also run Avid’s utility that turns the iPad into a ProTools control surface. Super useful in my studio.  

5 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Can I ask what you use on your surface pro to load the VSTs (or do you use them standalone)?  Obviously mainstage won't work, I know there are other similar things out there.

Gig Performer is great for this if not needing Ableton. 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Ibarch said:

An ipad would be a great setup except for one thing - ipadOS. 

Imagine a world where you could use the tens of thousands of virtual instruments, DAWs, audio applications that already exist. That would run full desktop powered versions of all your applications. With a touch screen. 

But Apple says no. So they cripple their tablets with a phone OS designed for 2008 hardware.

 

Or, as I suggested in my previous post, it's the price of being able to run the stuff on an iPad that weighs as little 10.4 ounces. Because probably gigging musicians is not one of their primary markets... while people who want the utmost in portability is. Apple is apparently willing to concede a good amount of that other market to things like the Surface Pro, as your own experience shows. Or those willing to use the iPad's Logic Remote app as a front end to a Mac Mini or Macbook running Mainstage.

 

Though also, when you say "a world where you could use the tens of thousands of virtual instruments...with a touch screen," there's also the fact that many virtual instruments were not designed to run particularly well with touch. And Apple has always been about things working "right." A Surface user likely accepts that some apps aren't going to work so well, maybe they'll need to use a stylus, maybe things won't scale the way they want to the screen size, or maybe they'll just be prompted to choose a different app... That isn't what Apple wants to sell, nor what they think their customer wants to buy. It should feel like something that is working as designed, not like you're always trying to push square pegs through round holes, and in a nutshell, that's arguably the difference between the two environments. (It's also why there is no Surface Pro equivalent to the smaller iPads... the environment doesn't scale well to smaller sizes.)

 

I do see the appeal of a "Mac tablet" and might very well buy one if it were offered... but I also see where maybe the super-thin super-light minimal keyboard support iPad approach in sizes down to 7 inches is not the way to create one. Maybe something more along the line of the Windows "convertibles" makes more sense, something which could still be seen as a "macbook" variant. Maybe that's some of what they're envisioning in allowing MacOS to run iPad apps in the first place.

 

 

[counterpoint]

Using a Surface Pro with Cantabile running mainly Arturia VST's.  Cantabile can do unbelievable things...but I set it up extremely simply with one "song" containing all the VST's I need for a set list loaded into that one song with different MIDI channels assigned from my YC 61 depending on the Live Set.  It's totally seamless once it's set up (which takes some work and creativity...). 

 

Right now, I'm not using the YC USB Audio, but instead I'm using a digital channel on the Presonus 24R (the band's mixer) for sounds from the Surface Pro. Have to do this because we are playing "Hungry Like the Wolf" and I have the popcorn synth arpeggio loaded into Cantabile as an MP3 together with an attached click track and starting cues routed to the drummer's in-ears. Cantabile allows you to sort out that kind of multi-channel routing.  You can't use the YC USB audio for that because it's only two channels. Also, I'm routing from the five pin MIDI out of the YC to the Surface Pro with a cord that converts the five pin to USB otherwise you get the "digital hum" from having two USB Audio sources hooked up to the same sound source which is what happened when I tried using the USB Audio/MIDI out.  Would be nice if there was a way to disable the USB Audio part of that connection on the YC. 

 

Also now have a Numa X and have been experimenting adding an IPad to that.  I have an IPad Air with USB C so the connection couldn't be easier.  It works great with absolutely no detectable latency to my ears using Korg Module.  Mainly using the IPad as a mixing console via "Universal Control" for the 24R though...(and the Surface Pro too even while it's running Cantabile)...I have everything I need and far beyond without adding the IPad as a sound source.  Lots of fun stuff to play around with and figure how many different ways it can be assembled...although it can be frustrating at times too.  Maybe I should dump it all and get a Nord Stage 4...🤑