Thoughts on playing for no income and what to do next

[MAJUSCULE]

I don't understand why they say there's no money in it whatsoever. I understand not being able to support yourself off it or rely on it for income in any way, but being so set on no money involved is simply bizarre. If you're not playing gigs yet, surely there's a plan to get out there at some point? If they've done semi-legit stuff in the past like big support slots etc, that only makes it weirder. There's got to be, at a minimum, a way for you to cover the hard costs of each individual gig, even if you never pay off the capital gear costs.

 

Like everyone here, I've done gigs and jams and what not for little to no money, but never without some other value added. Usually, any gig worth its while will at least find a way to cover your costs. Again, just puzzled at the whole thought process behind the "there's no money in this band and that's just how it's gonna be" mindset.

[Paul Woodward]

13 minutes ago, MAJUSCULE said:

I don't understand why they say there's no money in it whatsoever. I understand not being able to support yourself off it or rely on it for income in any way, but being so set on no money involved is simply bizarre. If you're not playing gigs yet, surely there's a plan to get out there at some point? If they've done semi-legit stuff in the past like big support slots etc, that only makes it weirder. There's got to be, at a minimum, a way for you to cover the hard costs of each individual gig, even if you never pay off the capital gear costs.

 

Like everyone here, I've done gigs and jams and what not for little to no money, but never without some other value added. Usually, any gig worth its while will at least find a way to cover your costs. Again, just puzzled at the whole thought process behind the "there's no money in this band and that's just how it's gonna be" mindset.

I am equally puzzled, unless he was implying there is no money for the musicians (who are “in it for the love of music”) because any earnings will be for the ‘songwriters’….who knows. Either way, he made it clear that was the plan so I am going with that. Already looking at other options.

[ProfD]

8 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

The two brothers have a history of creating bands that get some interest but no deals. Their last single (many years ago) was produced by the same guy who made the Artic Monkeys’ first album, they have supported at some big venues, but they never seem to get past that and they are all getting older now to be in the teen pop/rock market.

IMO, these cats are chasing the wrong end of the tail.  

 

As 50-something year old musicians, there is nothing to be gained from the teen pop/rock market.

 

Regardless of whether it's playing original material or cover tunes, the gigs for middle-aged and up musicians will be clubs, pubs, bars, private events, etc.

 

As middle-aged musicians, the chances of getting discovered or a deal are slim to none. 

 

The stars would have to align properly for that slight chance of landing a song(s) and/or landing a production opportunity or putting together the backing band and serving as musical director for a younger artist.

 

Older musicians who have a desire to gig are best served putting together a band to play originals or covers or both and doing the leg-work it takes to secure those gigs in the aforementioned venues. 

 

If/when the grind i.e. logistics it takes to run a band and secure gigs is no longer appealing, then, it's time to  play/compose/record music at home.

 

The music business has always been a younger person's game from the players to the patrons.😎

[Paul Woodward]

I have to agree. I made my decision in my early 20’s to pursue a career in art/design then education and music then became a fun past time with the odd gig with old bands, jams with friends etc. Returning back to the UK, I’m reminded how great my life overseas was and my day job is not the most exciting so I hoped returning to music would energise me. So far it’s not really doing that, but I’m aware that I have been ‘off the circuit’ for many years and, to a younger crowd, I probably look like Santa on a piano. There seems to be nothing around my parts between indie pop/rock with teenagers and old guys playing Shadows. Probably why I jumped on these guys as they can play and the music isn’t bad. 
But yes, it’s tricky at this age 🙂

[HammondDave]

I am blessed to not have to play for $$$.  I am retired and currently play in two bands, one a regularly working good classic rock cover band and the other an original R&B soul band here in LA. I also sub out to several good classic rock bands in Orange County.  Why do I do it?  I love performing live…. And I love my bandmates and their partners.  
 

Many of my colleagues are trying to make a living playing music. It’s like anything else in the arts… there are rewards other than financial. I grew up in the theatre as a lighting designer and struggled for many years, living gig to gig.  It took years to reach a point where I was financially stable from my design and teaching careers. I was one of the lucky ones.
 

‘My advice to anyone who wants to be a professional artist… find a second job that you love as well. Because unless you are very talented and very lucky, you will need to supplement your income…. especially if you have a family. 

[cphollis]

3 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

 There seems to be nothing around my parts between indie pop/rock with teenagers and old guys playing Shadows. 

If you think there's an audience in-between, you might consider putting together your own effort.  We found one in our local market.

[obxa]

On 3/15/2023 at 2:33 PM, Paul Woodward said:

Where I live there are few musical opportunities and I just can’t go back to clubs/pubs doing covers. I also consider myself a good player so I don’t want to join a hobby jam band either (I know that sounds awful, but better to be honest).

As an older full timer,  I'll mention the same advice given to me by old timers when I was coming up:  it's best to diversify, and look for other opportunities. 

 

There's lots more than just gigging live.  Always great to stretch your skillset, with other talents both musical and related you may have- or didn't know you had.

Almost infinite music facets that scratch the creative itch are out there involving production, sound design, scoring, composing, etc. etc.    Evidenced by the great folks who started and moderate this very forum, there's writing too.

 

You could consider remote recording and collaboration. There are paid opportunities and resources:   https://soundbetter.com/   plus all the bandcamp kind of stuff.

 

The holy trilogy of Money/Music/Hang  mentioned is indeed true.   There's also the adage "don't hook your wagon to someone else's dreams".   You can be a little more daring  when it's remote, or smaller projects - or perhaps an actual charity or cause you want to support. 

 

 A freelance writer friend  has often joked to me:  "sometimes you make your living $100.00 at a time" - (82 GPB or 149.80 AUD. . )    In one of his many autobiographies; I read as William Shatner got older with less roles out there,  he'd say "yes" to just about anything if it possibly sounded fun, or different  - e.g. his work with Ben Folds.

 

My personal hustle forms a calico quilt of income doing many different things musical, or music production related.  Some steady, and some infrequent.  Not all are high paying, and I've taken some stinkers I wish I hadn't.   As I get older, I now filter more and seek stuff I enjoy most.    But do enjoy the variety.

 

Pro-bono giving of your talents- not for band slugs taking advantage;  but actual charities, people, or causes you believe in...can sometimes Karmically lead to great paid gigs, contacts, or opportunities.  Though it wasn't my intention,  I've had that happen more times than I can count.   

 

In any event,  I hope it works out for you, and you don't give up.    It 's cathartic to know we all go through this. 

 

Cheers.

CC

 

 

 

 

[El Lobo]

Paul - as I read what you're saying, I think that you are musician, whether you want to be or not. 🤓 What I mean is, many of us go through various stages, sometimes playing more music or music that we like, sometimes playing less music or music that we don't like that much. But the thing is, you keep coming back to playing music in some form. Sometimes we may even take a few years off from playing music. But then we end up doing it again. You're in one of those transition phases. Sounds like you're moving to doing your own thing again, maybe with a collaborator or putting your own band together again. It's all good. Follow your own instincts. Do what feels right to you. You will play more music again. 

 

I've had a blues-rock band for 20+ years. I gigged occasionally in other bands, then the pandemic pretty much dried that up. A little while ago I started playing in an originals world-beat jam band. We've had a couple of freebie gigs. Sunday we had a gig with the full band, 10 pieces + sound guy. Good crowd, enthusiastic, lotsa fun, music went over really well. With tips, I got paid $21 for a 2-hour gig, close to home. I would have done it for free. I'm 77. I turn 78 in a couple months. If you're a musician, you will play music. Go with the flow and find out what music you're going to play next. 

[Paul Woodward]

Regardless of my original questions, I am loving reading your thoughts. As obxa said, it’s cathartic to read that others experience the same. I posted on a grey, cold and wet March morning after an uninspiring rehearsal. Today is warm and sunny and talk of playing summer gigs at pubs or festivals has cheered me up.

The singer, who I have done all the arrangements through, knows what I’m looking for even if he hasn’t relayed that to the band (no idea on that one).

Way I see it (after all the awesome advice) is that I owe them nothing as they are not paying me for it. I have no investment in the songs either so I can pop along as I wish for a jam. I already bought the gear and learnt the songs so not much more I have to do. When I’m at a rehearsal, I am trying out my boards and sound system, tweaking sounds, improving my playing and ‘oiling’ the old fingers. All better than sitting at home.
If they want to rehearse and there are no new songs, arrangements or gigs on the horizon, I can just decline. Treat it like a session to help a mate out; something you do if you want to. If they feel more commitment is necessary then they can find someone else, but I know they haven’t been able to find anyone at all in the last year. I’m not being a diva at all, but there is nothing here for me but a jam with musos and I’m not giving up other aspects of my life for that. 

If another musical pursuit requires more of my time and effort, then that is natural selection and fate will do it’s thing.

I kinda hoped that getting into studios and rehearsal rooms would open up a world of musos to meet and talk to, but not so far but I will keep my options open and see where it takes me.

As I mentioned, I have already put out a call for people to collaborate with on my own stuff and to develop new stuff with them so it will take the course it’s meant to.

 

And one more thing I may have mentioned, I think they have gone so long without keys that they have written and arranged so they can get by without one. Sure, a few songs are better for a smooth buttery rhodes or screaming hammond, but they have not been written round keys. Just like my stuff is written around keys. I think they will be just fine without keys and pretty sure they would stick with a smaller setup if they were paid and splitting the money. That pretty much sums it up for me.

Thanks again for the advice, and the hang 🙂

[Paul Woodward]

And yes, I am a musician.

Spent all my working life in pursuit of academia and professional status as a designer and educator, convinced that music would only be a hobby and the ‘clubs’ had no future. Maybe that part was right, but the real joy in my life is in playing music and I have reached an age where I have the house, car, pension fund and a decent bank balance and salary. I just want to enjoy my life to the fullest and have a wide variety of experiences while I still can.

[KuruPrionz]

Among the ways I've met musicians, open mic night and musical instrument stores have been the best. 

If other bands are gigging locally, going to see them is good too. 

 

If there is no open mic night in your area, consider starting a monthly one at a local club. I've run them, it's pretty simple stuff. People get 3 songs or about 12 minutes to do their thing. You may have to play quite a bit yourself at first but once the word gets out you'll start having to figure out how to squeeze everybody into a playing spot. 

That would be a Sunday, Monday or Tuesday night deal, the "off" nights for musicians. I've met LOTS of interesting musicians at open mics and you get to audition them en masse and without any sort of commitment or conversation regarding actually playing together. So, if they aren't what you are looking for you can just bring up the next guest without a word spoken. 

[El Lobo]

7 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

I just want to enjoy my life to the fullest and have a wide variety of experiences while I still can.

Yup. Me too. And I'm still doing it at what I call my advanced age. As they say, keep on keepin' on ... 

[AnotherScott]

On 3/15/2023 at 8:00 PM, David R said:

I firmly believe that anytime I have to leave my house to play music, I should be paid. There are far too many people who take terrible exposure gigs who dismiss it because it’s not their primary income stream. What winds up happening is that the conditions become a race to the bottom for those who do perform live as their primary source of income. 

I see your point, and I very rarely play for free regardless, but I think it's notable that the replies lean very heavily in the other direction. And similarly, if there's something with no pay that I'd really like to do (maybe because of the people involved, maybe because it's musically out of the ordinary, maybe it's for a good cause, maybe it's an outlet for our original material, whatever), and I turn it down just because I fear I'm making it worse for my fellow musician, well, the fact is, some other musician will say yes and take the spot, and so then what have I done except cheat myself out of an experience I would have really enjoyed?

 

If only there was some kind of, oh, organization that all musicians would be a part of, to assure they'd always get paid for their efforts... ;-)

 

On 3/15/2023 at 8:34 PM, Adan said:

If you choose as your profession something so fun and gratifying that people will do it for free, then you're just going to have deal with people doing it for free.  

Yeah, I think that sums it up.

 

On 3/15/2023 at 8:12 PM, Paul Woodward said:

it’s so hard to find someone on the same wavelength intentionally. Usually that happens as you spend time with someone and realise you are just sort of ‘right for each other’…

Sounds like the problem with online dating!

[TommyRude]

As always, great takes and insight from the community!  The holy trilogy for sure, but that's also kinda transactional.  What about the big picture? People have been talking about chapters, which you've already been writing, and you're thinking about the chapters to come, but what's the book?  Is it possible to strive for a tetralogy?

 

I think you mentioned you're 53?  If that's correct, you have a lot of runway in front of you and a lot of chapters to go.  If you can visualize the full story, then maybe you'll pick gigs and people that are a better fit with the story of Paul.

[El Lobo]

The Musician's Holy Trinity has already been mentioned in this thread – good music, good money, good hang  – but it holds true. If you get 2 out of 3, do it. And 3 out of 3 is the winning hand, the jackpot, bingo, the musician's holy grail. Sometimes I've had to settle for just 1 of those but most times I get 2. You may have to decide which 1 to give up. At my age, I don't need the money so I tend to give that up. There were times when I've insisted on good money. Sometimes that's the only 1 of the 3 I got. Sometimes I played just for the good music, other times I played just for the friendly hang. But the thing is, I always played. You may make different decisions about the 3 things at different times. But you'll always play because that's who you are. 

[Paul Woodward]

Well, been almost a month since the last rehearsal with this band, I have nothing else lined up so I decided to give it one more go last night to see if I could get at least one of the holy trinity…

It was a bittersweet experience as I took my new K&M lightweight stand and gave the Korg Grandstage its first whirl playing with a band. It sounded fantastic and the response in a band situation was fantastic. I had a great night playing but after an hour or so I realised (again) that no one was talking to me or involving me in conversations about sounds, arrangements etc. Yet again I felt like a spare part, like I had somehow crashed someone’s rehearsal, and it’s been like this since the start. By the end of an almost 3 hour practice, I made the decision that this was going nowhere.

Getting excited to get out and play only to feel deflated each time is not a healthy way forward and it’s not going to change so I let them know this morning that it’s not really for me. Shame as I quite liked some of their stuff but the guitarist is clearly running this with his brother and that is not going to change. I think they just want keyboards to fill the sound space as they clearly don’t value any creative input for this instrument. 90% of the time they just wanted Rhodes with a bit of Hammond…

There is no money in this, no creative input, same 6 songs each time (or they start jamming some new song without even telling me) and hardly any conversation. I guess I just really wanted it to work out as the level of commitment and locality was ideal, but you have to read the room sometimes.

Thanks for all the advice, it was really helpful to talk it out. It’s spring so a fresh start and time to look for something new.

[Ibarch]

Best of luck finding a new band. Don't give up, great groups do exist. It justs needs a lot of luck and persistence in the search. 

I am convinced that there are bands out there despairing of finding a good keyboard player. 

[Paul Woodward]

26 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

Best of luck finding a new band. Don't give up, great groups do exist. It justs needs a lot of luck and persistence in the search. 

I am convinced that there are bands out there despairing of finding a good keyboard player. 

I believe these guys were struggling to find anyone for some time, and without sounding pretentious I am a good player, so to treat someone willing to rock up enthusiastically at their own cost with their own gear with such disdain baffles me. Read the room as they say..I did.

[Ibarch]

It doesn't make much sense. That is musicians for you, we are an eclectic bunch. 

[RABid]

In my early days I was in a good band located in a town with no playing opportunities. We got to play one day a month but I wanted more. I ended up joining a band in a neighboring town and wow, what a difference. Because I extended area that I was willing to travel and the opportunities opened up. I was traveling 25 miles one way to practice and at least that far to play, but we were playing three nights a week every week and making good money. I found that the real music community in my area was regional, not local.

[Paul Woodward]

2 hours ago, Ibarch said:

It doesn't make much sense. That is musicians for you, we are an eclectic bunch. 

Indeed but I usually find fellow musicians to be friendly, gregarious, and interested in working together. This strange expectation of being an unpaid backing musician for someone’s vanity progress (in the guise of ‘the band’), and to sit there like a spare part all evening causes further bafflement.

[Sam Mullins]

Don' have much to add in terms of the current situation; I've never done this for a living although I did have an originals band for many years.

 

If you are looking for something that is less hassle/more control, then consider doing a duo act.  I've done one with my brother for the last ten years and the main benefits vs. the whole band thing are:

 

- much easier to schedule both practice and gigs

- more available options for gigs  (smaller spaces like wine bars, micro-breweries, and don't have to charge as much) 

- choice of material is easier with only two opinions. 

- more "room" for playing/solos/etc for keyboards

 

When we started, we decided we would play roughly

          - a third songs that every one knows

          - a third songs that half the people know

          - a third songs that probably no one knows, including a few originals (unless they've been coming to our gigs)

 

The main thing is we don't play a single song we don't like.  We are typically not playing  huge venues to hundreds of people - more like 50-100.   But we have a loyal local following and play 1-2 times a month which is fine with me (my brother's other band plays 50 times a year so he's good with that too).

 

To summarize: the hassle to fun ratio is pretty high, which is the main point when you aren't doing this for a living.  I'm lucky that I have a brother that is a very talented singer and can play both guitar and drums; makes our music selection more varied.  I can focus on keys which can be everything from a jazzy piano version of American Tune to a somewhat faithful recreation of Enjoy the Silence (with like 8 spits across two keyboards).   And as long as you give people that 1/3 they know, they seem to really like the variety beyond that.  

 

Just food for thought...hope you find something that gives you some musical gratification

 

 

[ProfD]

@Paul Woodward, use this thread as motivation and inspiration in deciding what you want to do musically. 

 

Do not waste your time, energy and resources hoping and waiting on someone else's dream to come to fruition.  Do your own thing.😎

[Paul Woodward]

Solid advice guys. I have even considered getting a good female singer and doing acoustic blues/jazz for dinner parties, receptions etc. Less hassle, a chance to stretch the fingers and I love just playing the piano with a vocalist. I’m in no rush now, got the setup I want and it’s gig ready as needed. Just a case of getting back into the local music scene after so many years away and see what develops. Thanks again everyone 🙂

[cphollis]

23 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Solid advice guys. I have even considered getting a good female singer and doing acoustic blues/jazz for dinner parties, receptions etc. Less hassle, a chance to stretch the fingers and I love just playing the piano with a vocalist. I’m in no rush now, got the setup I want and it’s gig ready as needed. Just a case of getting back into the local music scene after so many years away and see what develops. Thanks again everyone 🙂

That sounds perfect.  When band life gets too much for me, I do acoustic gigs with two strong vocalists, one of who plays a tasty acoustic guitar.  The three of us can get into -- and out of -- small venues with a Bose stick, some battery powered lights, small mixer and tip jar!  I love playing "acoustic" piano all night long as well, and it's very satisfying musically. 

 

Whether large band or small trio, the pay is about the same per musician, but much less work!

[KuruPrionz]

If you can play and sing and know enough songs, consider going solo for a while. You will probably meet new people, maybe start your own band or become part of another band. I'm headed in that direction now, working on 3-4 sets of mixed covers and originals (mostly covers). I play what I want to play, I "practice" when the time is right for me and I don't have to worry about all the tedious interactions typical of a band situation. 

 

Eventually, I'll probably meet some potential new band members. If not, I'll just do this, it's fun. 

[El Lobo]

On 4/7/2023 at 1:01 AM, Paul Woodward said:

There is no money in this, no creative input, same 6 songs each time (or they start jamming some new song without even telling me) and hardly any conversation.

Just read this part. Yeah, been there, done that. I've had some fun at rehearsals when we just start jamming something we've never done before. Sometimes something really nice comes out of that, sometimes nothing. But the part that really struck me was the same 6 songs. Every. Damn. Time. At what point do you decide that you've got those songs down and add something new to the rehearsal? If it never happens, yeah, I'm outta there. 

[Chummy]

I wonder what's the consensus on $ wage  per gig. E.g I'm going to get 138$ for a jazz evening with the band at some winery ~45minutes drive.

I'd think that's a bit low only because from that price I have to deduct fuel and other expenses etc. but it's the first time I'm doing with this band so excited to do that, to start working more with them etc .

 

But I've gotten double that amount (granted I had so much more fuel expenses too) and sometime like 200$ for much less driving distance.

and overall I'm struggling finding high quality gigs where I am..

Which is why I'm constantly looking for pro bands/singers abroad for work , to relocate but so far I kinda duuno where to begin looking.

 

If you're creating value for other people/company/whatever and you're good at what you do you'd expect to paid handsomely

Because every one of us is also competing with folks who'd work for free (but would sound bad)

 

I wasted basically a year of my life working with 3 different duos  I wanted to promote for live music jobs. All 3 acts collapsed because weren't serious enough and left me

either moved, or not serious enough. We had maximum 2 or 3 gigs out of it.  Therefore I agree about the "luck" factor comment. e.g hard work doesn't count unless luck is on one's side.

[LarsHarner2]

I had a similar situation around '96. I play music for my own enjoyment, due to my work schedule and family commitments I've never really been able to go out and do shows during the week. 

 

I joined a band because I simply wanted to get out and play, wanted to do shows. The lead guitarist said there are no shows in the winter then wanted me

to play on his records for free or what have you as "there was no where to play in the winter".

 

The punch line was "If you don't  do this I'll have to go out and pay someone ". And I walked on that. 

[cphollis]

A few thoughts I might add?

 

First, on the "hassle to fun" factor, I think it's perhaps the most important factor, and I was very cognizant of it when putting together my local band.  I painted a vision for people: we'd show up to the venue, smoothly setup, breeze through soundcheck, and get into three fun sets of music that the crowd loved.  The fun factor would be maximized, the hassle factor minimized.

 

Now, it took a while for the band components to mesh so that could actually happen (!) but it did happen, and it's happening pretty regularly now.  So everyone has an appetite to do more.

 

Second, on pay per musician, it's abysmal, and that's a function of basic economics: too much supply, not enough demand.  An example?  A car mechanic is a car mechanic unless you've got a priceless classic car you want repaired, and then the differences matter.  Same with musicians and bands.  As a result, we've started to focus on splashy local events and studiously avoiding weddings.