Play all the instruments yourself (poorly) or emulate them on keys to play them (good)?

[EricBarker]

I’d like to think I’ve gotten quite close on Sax and Fiddle on Roli Seaboard. But my aim is “listenable”, but never going to be mastery.

 

I find that the best Keyboard copping will do is hone in a particular style of playing and do that passably. A really good violinist can play a huge number of styles, articulations and feels at the drop of a hat. A solo synth will never do that well, just too many variables for a mismatched controller style.

 

A real player is going to have years of knowledge, repertoire, and history behind the instrument that I will never have. That makes a HUGE difference. It blows my mind every time I play with a real player after I’ve arranged a tune of mocked it up… they always make it 10x better with just the little things they can bring to the table.

 

Now, can I fill the Role? Yeah, I’d like to think so! I can play a kick-ass synth lead that can stand with a lead guitarist or a horn player. I’d like to think I’m a master bass player, even though my current axe of choice is a PolyD. IMO, Futureman is a fantastic drummer. No one instrument has the monopoly on filling a role. But if you want a particular style and history established by an instrument, you gotta have a specialist on that axe.

[Mark Schmieder]

Acoustic guitar is a prime example. I have a song I wrote in a style similar to Pete Shelley of Buzzcocks (RIP), and though I learned acoustic guitar in my early 20's, I never made it my main thing, so I hired a pro, and what a difference it made! All the nuances, different fingerings for the same chord, subtle articulations. That's how good I am on the bass, and my jazz combo complimented me for it today, saying it brings out the best in their soloing and playing. I'll likely never be that good on other instruments.

[jazzpiano88]

1 hour ago, Mark Schmieder said:

Acoustic guitar is a prime example. I have a song I wrote in a style similar to Pete Shelley of Buzzcocks (RIP), and though I learned acoustic guitar in my early 20's, I never made it my main thing, so I hired a pro, and what a difference it made! All the nuances, different fingerings for the same chord, subtle articulations. That's how good I am on the bass, and my jazz combo complimented me for it today, saying it brings out the best in their soloing and playing. I'll likely never be that good on other instruments.

I think this is a good guitar rendition (albeit a few moments that make light of what he’s doing):

 

[D. Gauss]

25 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

I think this is a good guitar rendition (albeit a few moments that make light of what he’s doing):

 

can't deny the excellent playing, but IMO that sounds nothing like a geetar.  Not even George Santos "guitar-ish." 

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, D. Gauss said:

can't deny the excellent playing, but IMO that sounds nothing like a geetar.  Not even George Santos "guitar-ish." 

What he said. 😊

[uhoh7]

One thing is almost certain: if you make noise on the real instrument, and try to learn a bit....when you do play a guitar or whatever preset, it'll probably be a lot better. Synthmania did some nice videos, and that great Sweetwater guy, Daniel Fisher, has some too, about how to get more "realistic". What they know, I think, comes from playing other instruments some, at least at home. It's also healthy, as the movement patterns are different. 

[Montunoman 2]

I think it would depend on my music style. If it’s a raw/ un polished sound like punk rock, probably all live playing would be the way too go. Also there’s so many popular styles that wouldn’t even sound right with live players no matter how good they are. 

[danstein]

9 hours ago, uhoh7 said:

One thing is almost certain: if you make noise on the real instrument, and try to learn a bit....when you do play a guitar or whatever preset, it'll probably be a lot better. Synthmania did some nice videos, and that great Sweetwater guy, Daniel Fisher, has some too, about how to get more "realistic". What they know, I think, comes from playing other instruments some, at least at home. It's also healthy, as the movement patterns are different. 

 

This a hundred times. Even if you intend to use virtual instruments, being able to play the real thing (even if badly) will give you a much better sense of how the instrument works and feels, what sonic possibilities there are within it, etc. Also, as you develop familiarity with different types of instruments, you will hear and understand more clearly the things that are idiomatic to that instrument. To paraphrase Kuru from earlier in the thread - playing guitar is about moving hand shapes around the fretboard (and working two hands together in sync) whereas playing keyboard involves learning different visual shapes/patterns and developing hand and finger independence. Playing a wind or brass instrument forces you to focus on single lines and will give you a different understanding of harmony. Playing some sort of percussion will help you develop rhythmic ability (and qualify you to wear cool beaded necklaces and stuff.) Even if you never play one of those instruments well enough to record it, you'll get a much more convincing performance from a VI if you have that knowledge in your hands and ears.

[KuruPrionz]

26 minutes ago, danstein said:

 

This a hundred times. Even if you intend to use virtual instruments, being able to play the real thing (even if badly) will give you a much better sense of how the instrument works and feels, what sonic possibilities there are within it, etc. Also, as you develop familiarity with different types of instruments, you will hear and understand more clearly the things that are idiomatic to that instrument. To paraphrase Kuru from earlier in the thread - playing guitar is about moving hand shapes around the fretboard (and working two hands together in sync) whereas playing keyboard involves learning different visual shapes/patterns and developing hand and finger independence. Playing a wind or brass instrument forces you to focus on single lines and will give you a different understanding of harmony. Playing some sort of percussion will help you develop rhythmic ability (and qualify you to wear cool beaded necklaces and stuff.) Even if you never play one of those instruments well enough to record it, you'll get a much more convincing performance from a VI if you have that knowledge in your hands and ears.

True dat!!!

One great example would be that keyboardists often comp chords by playing clusters of notes simultaneously. 

When I'm using a keyboard plugin on Triple Play to emulate a keyboard part, I use my right hand fingers to pluck those clusters simultaneously as well. 

 

If I strummed, like most guitarists often do, then the minute timing difference in the appearance of the notes of that same cluster gives it away as a guitar. 

The same would be true in reverse if a keyboard player is emulating a guitarist. They might want to quickly drop their fingers from left to right or right to left to simulate the timing of a guitar strum. 

 

Since there are always exceptions, I'll note that many nylon string guitarists do play entirely with their fingers and pluck clusters simultaneously. 

Primarily, it is steel string guitarists who play with a pick that create that subtle but different attack by strumming. Devil's in the details!

[Outkaster]

Well if someone wants to pay for three horn players I need for next weekend give me a call.

[KuruPrionz]

On 1/30/2023 at 9:38 AM, Outkaster said:

Well if someone wants to pay for three horn players I need for next weekend give me a call.

I play a mean kazoo... sometimes... 

[David Emm]

I like to think that I have a small advantage in having attended numerous symphonies. I've seen my share of rock & jazz bands, but I'd take opera glasses and watch various orchestra sections as they came along in a piece. Watching pro players articulate various things left a prominent positive mark on me.

 

When people claim that devising a solo violin track with a plug-in doesn't feel properly satisfying, I get it. That simply doesn't include me. I wouldn't claim wildly expansive skills at violin fakery, but knowing how it BREATHES makes all the difference in what I CAN play. It at least feels fairly 'honest' because I can think in terms of careful bowing.    

 

It may help to recall Rick Wakeman's comment about making sure you articulate your lines carefully. He said that if you weren't mindful of it, you could end up with the "Mighty Digital Wurlitzer Effect," where you stack too much synth and end up with a giant organ blob.  

[bill5]

21 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

I play a mean kazoo... sometimes... 

If they invent a MIDI capable kazoo such that it sounds realistically like any instrument and all I have to do is play the kazoo, I'm golden. 

[KuruPrionz]

9 minutes ago, bill5 said:

If they invent a MIDI capable kazoo such that it sounds realistically like any instrument and all I have to do is play the kazoo, I'm golden. 

Well, it's older tech now but see if you can find a Sharper Images Saxxy. 

It's sort of a digital kazoo thingie. I have one, still works after decades. If you set the tuba and run it down an octave or so you can blow subwoofers straight to Hell. 

No MIDI, just 3 instruments with additional octaves and you have to use the headphone jack to run an amp or record. Plus there are three hideous music loops you can jam with. It's not quite the best thing ever but close for what it is. I think I got mine new for around $40. 

 

A friend had a Saxxy too, we were hanging out at his place and he had 2 Ampeg cabs with folded 18", 2-10", 2-6" and 2 tweeters with an Ampeg SS head that was 1600 watts. 

He ran the tuba down low, hummed low and you could see the 18"s moving slowly back and forth but you could not hear them. 

The dog ran out of the room and hid in the far corner of the yard, terrified. 

 

That's power!

[bill5]

Sounds like shameless fun lol. Man they had that way back and no kazoo with MIDI yet? And they say tech has gone so far, pfft