Play all the instruments yourself (poorly) or emulate them on keys to play them (good)?

[Krakit]

16 minutes ago, GovernorSilver said:

If I were the OP I would go ahead and record myself playing the parts, then later decide whether or not to post on the Youtube channel.   

 

When you decide that your parts are going to suck before you even try recording, you have already put yourself in a a hole.  So, maybe don't put yourself in the hole?

 

There is much to be gained by going through the process of arranging musical parts to be played, recording, editing, then putting everything together into a video.  Even if you end up hiding it all away from the public, you gain experience in all these different, yet related activities, and over time you'll get better at these activities.  Unless of course you quit too easily.

 

Also if you end up getting other people to record those parts later, at least they can use the parts you previously recorded to help themselves understand what you're looking for.   

 

Ding Ding Ding

[TommyRude]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:49 AM, Krakit said:

Is it better to record myself playing bass, guitar and drums as well as I can (which is not well at all) or playing the bass, guitar and drums with a keyboard making them way better but not real? 

What is "real"? How do you define "real"? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see and hear, then "real" is simply electrical signals intepreted by your brain.

 

Try doing both methods.  Listen back, see which you like better, and report back with the results.

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, GovernorSilver said:

When you decide that your parts are going to suck before you even try recording, you have already put yourself in a a hole.  So, maybe don't put yourself in the hole?

This is great advice!

 

Me? I am an "Army of One", mostly by choice. Lots of talented musicians up here and I am friends with many of them. Some of them would like me to play guitar or bass on their recordings (a fair trade in many cases). That said, recording others can be an exhausting chore, especially drums or acoustic instruments. You need a great sounding room, some great mics and the time and intention to get the best possible sounds. Most drum sets could use new heads, some careful tuning and maybe better hardware (like kick drum pedals that don't "squeak" or "chunk").

 

I'd rather just keep to myself and not deal with solving those sorts of problems (which is to say nothing of getting the performer to understand what it is you want done).

I am not good at all on keyboards, have a Fishman Triple Play on one guitar so I can play keyboard sounds of all types on the guitar using computer plugins. Currently I'm pushing myself to improve on cobbling up drum plugin tracks ITB - I use IK MODO Drum or NI Studio Drummer mostly at this point. That takes time too but it's my time and I know what I'd like to accomplish. 

 

I've used Korg Wavedrum Global and Roland Handsonic to make beats, when repairs are done on my condo I'll move back home and probably get back into those again. 

 

As for the OP, try recording your songs playing different instruments. Give yourself a chance at first, maybe record guitar and bass on one of your pieces once a day for 2 weeks and see what happens. You may find yourself laying down some decent tracks in the end. Well played simple tracks are an art all their own, it isn't easy to avoid overplaying and wanting to get all fancy. Save that for your keyboard parts, just support the music with the others. 

 

I'm thinking you can probably pull it off pretty nicely if you go about with intention. 

[Anderton]

My "fix" is not to try and emulate a sound with the keyboard, but to emulate a feel. For example, I don't think it's possible to get a convincing sax sound on a keyboard. But you can create a sound that can serve the same purpose as a sax in an arrangement, but won't suffer by comparison.

[bill5]

6 minutes ago, Anderton said:

My "fix" is not to try and emulate a sound with the keyboard, but to emulate a feel. For example, I don't think it's possible to get a convincing sax sound on a keyboard. 

Not yet. But we're not far off, and getting closer. That and the violin are IMO the hardest to emulate well with plugins.

[KenElevenShadows]

13 minutes ago, Anderton said:

My "fix" is not to try and emulate a sound with the keyboard, but to emulate a feel. For example, I don't think it's possible to get a convincing sax sound on a keyboard. But you can create a sound that can serve the same purpose as a sax in an arrangement, but won't suffer by comparison.

 

Most of the time, that's infinitely preferable to outright mimicry, in my opinion. 

 

I also love the sound of a saxophone player or musicians playing another instrument, someone who has practiced their craft on a great instrument and know how to squeeze all the performance, tone, and FEEL out of an instrument. This captivates me far more than someone on a keyboard imitating an instrument.

[lesmisaceventura]

It really depends on what you are trying to achieve with your recordings. If you are looking for a realistic and professional sounding recording, then recording with real instruments is the best option. However, if you are just trying to create a track for yourself and don't need the highest quality sound, then using a keyboard to produce the instruments could work.

[D. Gauss]

I would do (and do) whatever method can be done the quickest to get the song across. Stay in creative mode vs tedious methodical mode.  (left vs right brian stuff).

 

Even strumming bad "cowboy chords" on a geetar takes about 2 seconds and in the end has more feel and vibe than spending hours under a microscope trying to do it on a keyboard. 

  In a pop rock, non-jazz, non-virtuoso world, bass can be a toss up between real and keys.  As for drums, pony up the 175 bucks for something like Toontrack EZdrummer and you'll never look back.  I'm a drummer (not a great one, but i do get paid to do drum gigs), and i use EZdrummer and Superior (the big brother) every single day.  Takes me less than 10 minutes to arrange a tune just by dragging and dropping grooves into a song that is in time and sounds way more than decent.  When i get around to it (and i often don't in this covid-everybody-works-at-home-don't-want-to-piss-off-neighbors-world), i'll replace the fake drums with a real kit.   

   Now horns, fiddles, and harmonicas?  IMO, they always sound like crap on keys to me.  If you can actually play those instruments, go for it, otherwise, i'd do what someone above mentioned, about playing the "idea" of the part but with a different sound on keys. That way someone like me who cringes every time they hear fake horns, doesn't prejudge what may in fact be a great musical line/song part. my two cents. 

[David Emm]

When I went out solo and performed live a bit, I'd play a few things 100% by hand, lest people didn't think I *could*. With the rest, I'd have to run my mouth or sing a brief snippet of something amusing while I shoveled 01Wfd floppies in and out. Then I'd play a keys or percussion track by hand over one of my juicy sequences. By that point, people were already hip to backing via 'computer,' so no one ever threw a beer bottle at me, yelling "POSEUR!!" Just a technical observation.

[bill5]

3 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

Even strumming bad "cowboy chords" on a geetar takes about 2 seconds and in the end has more feel and vibe than spending hours under a microscope trying to do it on a keyboard. 

"More feel and vibe" is obviously subjective, but it hardly takes "hours under a microscope" to bang out some simple chords on a guitar VI. In fact, I can fire up my DAW, load a guitar VI, and play one in seconds. For a non-guitar player like me, it's far (far) easier, not to mention cheaper, as I don't have to buy a guitar, to say nothing of the time and sweat needed to learn to play even basic stuff competently.

 

Quote

As for drums, pony up the 175 bucks for something like Toontrack EZdrummer and you'll never look back.  I'm a drummer (not a great one, but i do get paid to do drum gigs), and i use EZdrummer and Superior (the big brother) every single day.  Takes me less than 10 minutes to arrange a tune just by dragging and dropping grooves into a song that is in time and sounds way more than decent.  

Interesting that you'd say that for drums, as a drummer no less, but not for guitar-?

 

Quote

Now horns, fiddles, and harmonicas?  IMO, they always sound like crap on keys to me. 

They can be the most difficult to emulate, but I'm curious which VIs you've heard?
 

 

[D. Gauss]

1 hour ago, bill5 said:

 Interesting that you'd say that for drums, as a drummer no less, but not for guitar-?

 

They can be the most difficult to emulate, but I'm curious which VIs you've heard?
 

 

I say it for drums because in the case of the Toontrack stuff,  the sounds are top notch, and you can have some really good drummer playing the groove.  i.e.  for the stuff i write, i use grooves played by Steve Ferrone (Average White Band, Tom Petty).  It's got a pocket, it's in time and serves my purpose to get the song done quickly and is inspirational. 

  As for geetar, feel free to post some of your guitar programmed songs.  I've heard some interesting acoustic type finger-picking stuff, but the spread of guitar chord voicings are unnatural to me on the keyboard and take waaay too much time for me to try and emulate. I use the Ample Sound P Bass all the time for bass and love it, but i also have their acoustic guitar, which also sounds good, but never use it cause it's just easier for me to strum a chord on a real acoustic.

 

re: horn/fiddle/harmonica VIs. I have a few, forget some of the names (session something or another? maybe).  To me (ymmv), they sound good when you hit a single note on their own, but require sooooo much work to get a realistic sound.  IMO you don't get all the timing and pitch imperfections of a real horn section without endless fiddling.  I have used a wav sample library of the Memphis Horns before, and it sounds real as hell (because it is), but you're kinda stuck with horn lines from famous songs they played on which kinda sucks if you're doing something new/different.

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, bill5 said:

"More feel and vibe" is obviously subjective, but it hardly takes "hours under a microscope" to bang out some simple chords on a guitar VI. In fact, I can fire up my DAW, load a guitar VI, and play one in seconds. For a non-guitar player like me, it's far (far) easier, not to mention cheaper, as I don't have to buy a guitar, to say nothing of the time and sweat needed to learn to play even basic stuff competently.

I thought I might share some guitarist thoughts with you. First, I don't play keyboards very well at all and mostly just don't. No dings on the instrument or those who choose them, I love to hear good keyboard playing of all types. It's a fantastic musical instrument. Oddly, even though I often do very different things with each hand playing the guitar, I can't seem to get the hand independence needed to play keyboards well and I find all the scale patterns being different from each other intimidating. Guitar is more about moving shapes to different places, the same shapes always work. That's just me, maybe.

 

The profound difference between actually playing a stringed instrument and trying to emulate one may only be heard by ears like mine but the fact remains that the infinite multitude of instant combinations of expression in tone that are possible by touching the physical tone generator (in this case the string) are difficult to describe, take time to learn placement and purpose but still blow me away every time I pick up the instrument. Acoustic and electric are different, both unique and both very responsive. Nylon string guitar more than holds it's end up and so can a bass guitar. 

 

I get that there is only so much time on this spinning rock, and I personally do anything I can to avoid being the keyboard or percussionist so I understand your avoidance. 

Be careful, you might play a guitar someday and wonder why you didn't start sooner. 😃

[bill5]

8 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

I say it for drums because in the case of the Toontrack stuff,  the sounds are top notch, and you can have some really good drummer playing the groove.  i.e.  for the stuff i write, i use grooves played by Steve Ferrone (Average White Band, Tom Petty).  It's got a pocket, it's in time and serves my purpose to get the song done quickly and is inspirational. 

  As for geetar, feel free to post some of your guitar programmed songs.  I've heard some interesting acoustic type finger-picking stuff, but the spread of guitar chord voicings are unnatural to me on the keyboard and take waaay too much time for me to try and emulate. I use the Ample Sound P Bass all the time for bass and love it, but i also have their acoustic guitar, which also sounds good, but never use it cause it's just easier for me to strum a chord on a real acoustic.

 

re: horn/fiddle/harmonica VIs. I have a few, forget some of the names (session something or another? maybe).  To me (ymmv), they sound good when you hit a single note on their own, but require sooooo much work to get a realistic sound.  IMO you don't get all the timing and pitch imperfections of a real horn section without endless fiddling.  I have used a wav sample library of the Memphis Horns before, and it sounds real as hell (because it is), but you're kinda stuck with horn lines from famous songs they played on which kinda sucks if you're doing something new/different.

All fair points. I agree that to do any "serious" guitar playing (something more than simple backing chords or notes), it is hard, at least for me as a keyboard player it is...but it would be far harder to actually try and play a guitar. tbh I am amazed by anyone who can play a guitar with any competency, never mind really well. As part of a music class in Jr High, we were given a few free lessons. I might as well try to learn Chinese. So I'm not sure how much getting guitar parts down is me vs the inherit hurdle of doing it on a keyboard (some of both probably but I lean more to me lol). But again, whatever hurdle translating it on a keyboard is there is a whisper of what it would take to try and learn guitar.

 

As for the other instruments, I do think that solo strings and above all sax are the holy grail of plugins, very hard to get one that not only sounds real with individual notes, but still does when actually playing (again you must assume the skill of the player to be there too). I think strings are largely there now days, for ex. Joshua Bell by Embertone. And when you get into ensembles or sections, definitely. Sax....not that I've yet found, but there are various that I haven't tried. Even then, if it's simpler stuff or more backing material vs wanting some big sax solo, there is stuff that can work. Tech has come a long way and should only keep getting better. 

 

[bill5]

8 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

I thought I might share some guitarist thoughts with you. First, I don't play keyboards very well at all and mostly just don't. No dings on the instrument or those who choose them, I love to hear good keyboard playing of all types. It's a fantastic musical instrument. Oddly, even though I often do very different things with each hand playing the guitar, I can't seem to get the hand independence needed to play keyboards well and I find all the scale patterns being different from each other intimidating.

 

Funny, I'm just the opposite. "Here, put this finger in this exact spot on this string, now this finger on this exact spot on this other string, and........" etc etc...."yeah so your left hand looks like you have arthritis, now you got it!" ugh. Hard pass. 

 

 

Quote

Be careful, you might play a guitar someday and wonder why you didn't start sooner. 😃

See post above. The only guitar I have any interest in is air guitar!  

[Nowarezman]

I have a set of guidelines that I've evolved over a long time doing home studio stuff:

 

1.  when it comes to actual tracking, stay well within your limits in terms of instrumental or vocal performance.  The other side of this coin is "hide your weaknesses."  All us self-taught, home-brew types doing multi-instrumental productions have lots of gaps in our skillsets and training. It's ok!  Just do what you really can do and stop there.

 

2.  I don't have a drummer.  Good drummers listen to your tune and start throwing out ideas - some work, some don't.  If all goes well, everyone gets hyped and the drummer's part gets everyone's juices going.  Same for any band where the members contribute ideas and grooves and such.  If some piece of software - such as EZ Drummer - can do the same thing more or less - that seems totally valid to me.  It's a collaboration of sorts.  

 

3.  Showcase your best playing on your best instrument.  Like Sinead O'Conner on No One Compares 2 U.   Who cares about the backing track?  It's a hit just because of that voice and those eyes.  Dumb down the stuff you are not so good at, whether produced virtually or by actual playing.  But put that well-done bit of real human expression in there front and center.  Let everything else get a bit lost in the background.

 

nat

[KuruPrionz]

58 minutes ago, bill5 said:

Funny, I'm just the opposite. "Here, put this finger in this exact spot on this string, now this finger on this exact spot on this other string, and........" etc etc...."yeah so your left hand looks like you have arthritis, now you got it!" ugh. Hard pass. 

 

 

See post above. The only guitar I have any interest in is air guitar!  

Well, I tried. Some of us are not meant to play guitar (or keyboards). 

Nowarezman above has the correct overall concept, serve the song. 

[pinkfloydcramer]

I’m no fan of playing instrument samples on a keyboard but some things IMO work better than others.  Banjo or Cajun accordion samples don’t have nearly the mojo of the real thing but they’re fun if you play them stylistically. Keyboard fiddle, as far as I’m concerned, is only good for goofing on the Motel 6 “we’ll leave the light on for ya” theme.

 

What contributes to the fakeness and cheesiness of keyboard virtual instruments, IMO, is pitch bending. Because with a harmonica or guitar, the timbre changes with the bend, with samples the timbre stays constant. Blues harmonica pitch bending is the worst. Ugh. It’s really not hard to pick out the notes on a diatonic harmonica (as a lot of solo performers have discovered), it’s just a matter of getting a good airtight seal on the individual notes.

I think chromatic harmonica comes off better, as it is not so reliant on bending. I’m still fond of Donald Fagan’s synthesized harmonica sound on his Nightfly album. It’s a good example of doing something cool, knowing it’s not going to fool anybody.
 

But I am not abreast of the latest VST’s, unlike some here. I assume things have improved in eliminating the cheese factor in pitch bending and other aspects.

[KuruPrionz]

16 minutes ago, pinkfloydcramer said:

But I am not abreast of the latest VST’s, unlike some here. I assume things have improved in eliminating the cheese factor in pitch bending and other aspects.

There is less cheese but it's not gone yet. 

Some of the older stuff holds up pretty well too. I recently made an instrument for my Triple Play using sounds from SampleTank 3 or 2.5 (don't remember). A Marimba and a Kalimba (thumb piano) blended together. The Marimba Kalimba sounds lovely, I can use that for certain. 

[bill5]

2 hours ago, pinkfloydcramer said:

But I am not abreast of the latest VST’s, unlike some here. I assume things have improved in eliminating the cheese factor in pitch bending and other aspects.

Depending what you've heard previously, quite a long way. It all varies with the specifics of course including again the skill of the player.  

[Mark Schmieder]

I started racing away from computer-based sounds right before the pandemic. Bad timing, I know! As it has been hard to meet my original goal of getting back to old-style people-in-the-room recording, I have been self-training (and buying) as many real instruments as I can. The difference is startling.

[EricBarker]

6 hours ago, Nowarezman said:

1.  when it comes to actual tracking, stay well within your limits in terms of instrumental or vocal performance.  The other side of this coin is "hide your weaknesses."  All us self-taught, home-brew types doing multi-instrumental productions have lots of gaps in our skillsets and training. It's ok!  Just do what you really can do and stop there.

 

I was just thinking about David Gilmour, who I and millions of others consider one of the greatest guitarists alive. A few weeks ago I read in his memoirs that he wished he could play like Eddie Van Hallan. God, I'm glad he can't! Gilmour is so good because he plays like Gilmour, he pushes himself here and there, but really knows how to work what he does best. The greatest and most influential musicians of all time are almost never the best... they're the best at knowing what they do best and working it!

[David Emm]

6 hours ago, Nowarezman said:

2.  I don't have a drummer.  Good drummers listen to your tune and start throwing out ideas - some work, some don't.

 

 

I sometimes engage in semi-experimental groove creation by finger drumming my way to a good point. Once I find the right loop, I often quantize just a wee bit to tighten up any modest lags. Much more will often make it either too robotic or cause it to stagger because digi-demons are after you. I then do whatever else I can think up, ruled by the rhythmic iron fist of my loop. Sometimes that even works. I once added an accompanying layer over the top that worked so well, I erased the original rhythm. Not a total change of direction, but substantially different. This has much to recommend it when contrasted with a drummer who micro-doses ketamine and never knows where the song ends.

[Ivan May]

You might be surprised as to how many people can play all the instruments themselves.

 

ELO's Zoom album, released in 2001, shows Jeff Lynne playing most of the instruments, including the guitars, bass, keyboards and drums.

[bill5]

Or so he says. Could be all plugins.  😉

[Mark Schmieder]

Nope, he's playing actual instruments for the most part, but a few sounds come from ROMplers. I've seen vids of sessions with Jeff Lynne.

[KuruPrionz]

19 hours ago, Mark Schmieder said:

I started racing away from computer-based sounds right before the pandemic. Bad timing, I know! As it has been hard to meet my original goal of getting back to old-style people-in-the-room recording, I have been self-training (and buying) as many real instruments as I can. The difference is startling.

Nothing beats real. I consider my accumulation to be one of the essentials of my studio. You need a good pair of speakers, good headphones, a couple of great mics, a good interface, a computer and all sorts of music making thingies. Touching strings and/or striking membranes allows for unique and instant expression seldom found in plugins. 

You are absolutely on the right track in my opinion. 

[bill5]

12 hours ago, Mark Schmieder said:

Nope, he's playing actual instruments for the most part, but a few sounds come from ROMplers. I've seen vids of sessions with Jeff Lynne.

Just kidding.

 

Really I'm impressed by anyone who can play a single instrument well, never mind several of very different types.

[jazzpiano88]

Expanding on the topic a bit, if you go over to vi-control.net there is a whole community of musicians that do nothing but orchestral mockups with virtual instruments.  You can check out people's work ranging from so-so to can't tell it's not real.   It's a talent some people have nailed, perfecting the articulations and using libraries that are fantastic.  

 

Here's a good example of creating a mock up (part 3 is where he plays the parts into protools):

 

[Mark Schmieder]

5 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Nothing beats real. I consider my accumulation to be one of the essentials of my studio. You need a good pair of speakers, good headphones, a couple of great mics, a good interface, a computer and all sorts of music making thingies. Touching strings and/or striking membranes allows for unique and instant expression seldom found in plugins. 

You are absolutely on the right track in my opinion. 

And I didn't mean to sound so absolutist either, as I spent years using alternative controllers (percussion MIDI, wind MIDI, etc.) to get more realism and expression, but in the end I felt it was too much effort compared to just getting better on the natural instruments.

 

I had gone the other direction in the early 2000's when I bought my first computer and was heavy on ROMpler based production, so I started over from scratch around 2012 or so, but this time we had the internet as a learning and vendor search resource, so I patiently dug until I could find direct luthier relations around the world, paying less for much higher quality instruments due to cutting out the middleman.

 

It's not that I'm very good on that many of them yet, and some may be beyond my capacity to excel at my age and with limited time, but it's a very enjoyable experience overall, and at the very least I am helping independent luthiers in poor countries (or even in the USA) and gaining a better awareness of how to effectively use sample based sources.

 

It also means I have quality instruments to loan to others when I am in the producer role. This even goes for common stuff like drums, as most poor musicians have crappy snares that don't record well. In every case, the drummer has been extremely thankful for my possession of quality snares like Ludwig Supraphonic, that don't have the resonance issues so common with lower quality snares. The same even goes for amps and sometimes guitars as well.

 

I do expect to sell stuff off as I get older and as I have more time to really evaluate which ones are getting used in studio work, for songwriting, or for learning. But as I chose well this time around, everything in my collection has good resale value, or at least it will again when the economy bounces back.

 

I will reemphasize that building your instrument collection with quality instruments doesn't have to be a super expensive proposition, but it definitely takes deep knowledge to shop smartly. As ethnomusicology is one of my deepest passions since age 10 when I had my first experience with Gamelan, I don't mind taking the time to research and learn and find who are the good makers/luthiers.

[KuruPrionz]

3 hours ago, Mark Schmieder said:

And I didn't mean to sound so absolutist either, as I spent years using alternative controllers (percussion MIDI, wind MIDI, etc.) to get more realism and expression, but in the end I felt it was too much effort compared to just getting better on the natural instruments.

 

I had gone the other direction in the early 2000's when I bought my first computer and was heavy on ROMpler based production, so I started over from scratch around 2012 or so, but this time we had the internet as a learning and vendor search resource, so I patiently dug until I could find direct luthier relations around the world, paying less for much higher quality instruments due to cutting out the middleman.

 

It's not that I'm very good on that many of them yet, and some may be beyond my capacity to excel at my age and with limited time, but it's a very enjoyable experience overall, and at the very least I am helping independent luthiers in poor countries (or even in the USA) and gaining a better awareness of how to effectively use sample based sources.

 

It also means I have quality instruments to loan to others when I am in the producer role. This even goes for common stuff like drums, as most poor musicians have crappy snares that don't record well. In every case, the drummer has been extremely thankful for my possession of quality snares like Ludwig Supraphonic, that don't have the resonance issues so common with lower quality snares. The same even goes for amps and sometimes guitars as well.

 

I do expect to sell stuff off as I get older and as I have more time to really evaluate which ones are getting used in studio work, for songwriting, or for learning. But as I chose well this time around, everything in my collection has good resale value, or at least it will again when the economy bounces back.

 

I will reemphasize that building your instrument collection with quality instruments doesn't have to be a super expensive proposition, but it definitely takes deep knowledge to shop smartly. As ethnomusicology is one of my deepest passions since age 10 when I had my first experience with Gamelan, I don't mind taking the time to research and learn and find who are the good makers/luthiers.

I do use plugins, MODO Drum for one and all of my synths and samplers are digital. 

I've heard some fairly good sounding acoustic guitar emulations that can be played on keyboards but since I am MUCH better on guitar than keyboards (which I can barely play to be honest) and since getting the huge variety of tonal expression I can pull out of a guitar instantly amounts to poking around and tweaking MIDI files to get a similar effect from a guitar plugin, I will always choose the real guitar. Adding in the consideration that I play steel string, nylon string, acoustic and electric, 6 and 12 string, 5 string banjo (fretted and fretless), lap steel, fretted and fretless bass etc., there's no way I'm going to spend the time to improve my keyboard skills and buy premium plugins for all those sounds so I can spend hours tweaking files on a DAW. 

 

Not when I could just lay those tracks down with joy and expression and keep on moving.