Acoustic piano replacement for advanced student

[confidence]

I do some piano teaching, standard classical technique based using an acoustic grand piano in my home studio. I try to help my students source decent acoustic pianos where possible but am equally happy for them to have a reasonable quality digital at home for learning up to about grade 5/6 - I normally recommend whatever is current in Yamaha P-series for this.

 

Now I have a very good student who's just done grade 7 and wants to do grade 8, but has a really unsuitable piano (which they got for free when she was a beginner). She's hitting some limitations with technique that she really needs a better instrument to practise on and I've said they need to sort this before doing grade 8. However she's likely to be leaving home for university soon so they want to get a digital she can take with her rather than an acoustic. Needs to have built in speakers for simplicity of setup and using like a piano, and be reasonably light for transport although she's not thinking at this point of gigging etc. They haven't mentioned a budget but I suspect are unlikely to go beyond about £1,000.

 

I don't feel the normal Yamaha P-series models like P-125 etc. would be suitable for this. I've looked at the P-515 but it's probably too expensive and is also very heavy.

 

Right now I'm veering towards Kawai ES. I played an ES110 years ago and seem to remember the action was pretty good, but don't remember much more. I'm thinking ES520 as probably the sweet spot - can be got for <£900 now which is only about £200 more than the ES120, has better speakers and full connectivity including MIDI DIN if she wants to expand her horizons later. I haven't played it but am very impressed by the sound of demos online. And only 14.5 kg.

 

Other possibility seems to be Casio but I haven't got to grips with their product range yet.

 

I have a Yamaha CP4 which she's played and enjoyed, but as I say we want something with internal speakers.

 

Thoughts?

[ElmerJFudd]

P-515 or ES920 are getting positive feedback from forumites in that price range.  
 

Least expensive is the ES-120.  Most piano-like would be the Yamaha N1X. 

[Montunoman 2]

I got a used Kawai ES 110 for $300. Feels great to me! 

[vortmaxx]

I know Casio doesn't get as much love around here as some other brands, but I bought a PX-560 about 6 years ago and have been very happy with it. I felt that the action is pretty suitable for my playing, which I'd say is intermediate across the spectrum on a good day. My primary goal was to have a nice piano with speakers that I could connect with finger-to-ear-wise for practicing at home, but could also cover a small gig, like a small birthday or wedding ceremony with no PA in a pinch. The PX-360 is the same board minus the mod wheel and a few assignable knobs but would perhaps be right around the top of your budget.

[Farfisakid]

In my opinion you won’t be able to find a better option than a used or new Yamaha p515 in terms of having a suitable action at the most affordable price and weight for your student as a recommendation. At least that has been my experience in the Ontario Canada area. All the best for you and your students success ...

[Old No7]

Gee, no mention of the Roland FP-##X series?

 

They have ivory-like keys (not as slick or plastic-ey feeling as those by Yamaha) with weighted progressive hammer actions -- VERY nice action on even the entry model FP-30X too.  Built-in speakers on all those too.  Although "at university", she will likely want the more sound options (and easier sound selection) of the -60X or -90X boards.  Top-quality Roland piano sounds, plus others too.  I think those are well worth a look & listen.

 

Old No7

[ElmerJFudd]

4 hours ago, Old No7 said:

Gee, no mention of the Roland FP-##X series?

 

They have ivory-like keys (not as slick or plastic-ey feeling as those by Yamaha) with weighted progressive hammer actions -- VERY nice action on even the entry model FP-30X too.  Built-in speakers on all those too.  Although "at university", she will likely want the more sound options (and easier sound selection) of the -60X or -90X boards.  Top-quality Roland piano sounds, plus others too.  I think those are well worth a look & listen.

 

Old No7

The 30x and 60x have the PH4 Standard.  You don’t get the PHA50 until the 90x.  They’re worth a try if you can find these all in a shop.  

[stoken6]

The P515 has a noticeably better action compared to the entry-level P45/P125 etc.

 

Secondhand P255 would be a good choice. There's one on a well-known auction website for £800 at the moment.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[CyberGene]

The action of most Kawai digital pianos is pretty nice at first since it's light and nimble and if you're mostly playing some percussive type of music such as e.g. quick be-bop jazz lines where only rhythmic accents are needed, it's very easy to do so. However the lack of heavy inertia to the keys leads to unrealistic dynamics control when you need to play smooth gradations in dynamics, which is especially apparent by the ease with which you can reach fff dynamics, leading to a rather jumpy velocity response. I've experienced this for years with multiple Kawai digital pianos and is still present on all of their latest models I've tested. The reason is complicated and we've elaborated it in details on PianoClack forums but let's just say that a very lightweight action such as on the Kawai digital pianos, has relatively narrow force range, meaning it's easy to accelerate it to high velocities. However this is mapped to samples obtained from huge acoustic grand pianos whose actions are much heavier (high inertia) and thus you end up mapping a narrow finger-force range of a light action to a very wide sound dynamics that feels like having jumpy velocities that stick out way too easily. This cannot be fixed by changing the touch response since it will only limit the max velocities, thus making the timbre variation less varied.

 

In contrast, Yamaha digital pianos create the impression of heavy and sluggish keys that have a push-back against your fingers which can be painful for people who are not used to acoustic grand piano actions. However the dynamics control is superior and allows for seemingly endless linear response where you can put more nuanced finger force producing the corresponding sound dynamics. This is especially important for classical music. After owning Kawai digital pianos for years and finally switching to a Yamaha N1X with real acoustic grand piano action and a CP88 and testing P515 in stores against Kawai digital pianos, I can firmly say for me the Yamaha approach is much closer to a real piano, although both brands have cons and pros with their digital (non-hybrid) pianos.

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

The action of most Kawai digital pianos is pretty nice at first since it's light and nimble and if you're mostly playing some percussive type of music such as e.g. quick be-bop jazz lines where only rhythmic accents are needed, it's very easy to do so. However the lack of heavy inertia to the keys leads to unrealistic dynamics control when you need to play smooth gradations in dynamics, which is especially apparent by the ease with which you can reach fff dynamics, leading to a rather jumpy velocity response. I've experienced this for years with multiple Kawai digital pianos and is still present on all of their latest models I've tested. The reason is complicated and we've elaborated it in details on PianoClack forums but let's just say that a very lightweight action such as on the Kawai digital pianos, has relatively narrow force range, meaning it's easy to accelerate it to high velocities. However this is mapped to samples obtained from huge acoustic grand pianos whose actions are much heavier (high inertia) and thus you end up mapping a narrow finger-force range of a light action to a very wide sound dynamics that feels like having jumpy velocities that stick out way too easily. This cannot be fixed by changing the touch response since it will only limit the max velocities, thus making the timbre variation less varied.

 

In contrast, Yamaha digital pianos create the impression of heavy and sluggish keys that have a push-back against your fingers which can be painful for people who are not used to acoustic grand piano actions. However the dynamics control is superior and allows for seemingly endless linear response where you can put more nuanced finger force producing the corresponding sound dynamics. This is especially important for classical music. After owning Kawai digital pianos for years and finally switching to a Yamaha N1X with real acoustic grand piano action and a CP88 and testing P515 in stores against Kawai digital pianos, I can firmly say for me the Yamaha approach is much closer to a real piano, although both brands have cons and pros with their digital (non-hybrid) pianos.

These impressions are too general, all encompassing, don’t you feel CG?  They’ve been building digital pianos at several price points for decades now - tweaking their action designs and reworking casement from heavy particle board bases to lightweight all plastic builds to sheet metal, all wooden consoles.  Using different types and thicknesses of damper material. They all feel a bit different to play model to model year to year.
 

Even on the entry level ES-100, 110, 120 the action’s playability has changed - improved.  The 110 was smoother faster moving than the 100. The 120 has better dampening.  

The CP4 and CP88 have been much more forgiving on the player’s body than the S90ES.  All play different from P125. And none of their previous designs compare in piano realism to the action in an N3x.  
 

I’m just suggesting what we all already know. Actions are personal preference and we have to get on the instrument and give it a go to know if it’s going to work for us.  
 

 

[octa]

CyberGene's diagnosis matches my experience with Kawai's plastic action in Nord Grand very closely. (same action as ES920, though modified) However, the Kawai VPC1, with its wooden action, has been a great practice tool, and much more realistic dynamically and otherwise. 

 

For keyboards with speakers: P-515 would be my top choice (even with the weight and price) followed by something in the Roland FP series. 

 

Sitting here in a room full of several portable weighted keyboards currently (bought during Covid, and difficult to sell). Can't recommend trying them out in person enough! 

 

 

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

These impressions are too general, all encompassing, don’t you feel CG?

Sure, there’s certainly some over-generalization. Yet, generally speaking all Kawai plastic actions and the newer wooden GF actions by Kawai seem too light to me. I’m not speaking about static weight that you measure with weights on the front of the key. I mean the dynamic weight, i.e. inertia. The only exception is the older RM3 actions by Kawai, such as in the Kawai VPC1. 
 

Conversely, Yamaha also makes a huge variety of actions that feel lighter or heavier but since we’re speaking about the P515 and their mid and upper tier Clavinovas, they all feel a bit heavy in static weight but their inertial weight is just right and allows for a wider range of forces you can put into the keys to achieve higher velocities. 
 

I’ve learned there’s no consensus about digital piano actions though 😀 Which is why it’s just my personal opinion and taste. I prefer the Yamaha approach. 

[Lou Gehrig Charles]

5 hours ago, stoken6 said:

The P515 has a noticeably better action compared to the entry-level P45/P125 etc.

 

 

Better in what way, if I may ask? 

 

It's a serious question, because I recently bought a P125 and I just can't warm up to it's action.  I'm trying to decide if it's just something I have to get used to.

[stoken6]

3 hours ago, Lou Gehrig said:

Better in what way, if I may ask? 

 

It's a serious question, because I recently bought a P125 and I just can't warm up to it's action.  I'm trying to decide if it's just something I have to get used to.

Difficult to articulate in words - but it's better. More pianistic, easier to play expressively. More fluidity. A sense of a "more exquisitely engineered" mechanism. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[bfields]

I feel like it's the dampers and sustain pedal that behave most differently on digital pianos.  Like, on my PC4 and PX-560 (and RD500 before that...): you can't use a key to lift a damper without starting a new note;  you can't do the trick where you hold down a chord silently and bang another key and hear the chord ring out faintly; if half-pedal is supported, the behavior's nothing like on a real piano; etc.  (I seem to recall Pianoteq gets closer, no doubt higher-end hardware does too.)

 

I don't know the piano grades, but if they're expecting to be able to work on literature that uses weird pedal effects, that might be something where it's not just "this sounds subtly unrealistic" but actually "oops I can't do this thing at all".

[confidence]

Thanks everyone, much food for thought. I managed to have a play on several of these at a music store today. Observations:

 

I felt the Yamaha P515 and Kawai ES920 would both do the job. Of the two, I preferred the Kawai for the specific purpose: the sound seemed more natural, more classical, less processed. I think part of this may have been the speakers, which are more powerful on the Kawai so maybe don't need to be driven as hard (?). The overall sonic experience on the Yamaha just felt a little boxy and compressed. This is something that struck me about most of them actually, that we probably have to be realistic about what we're going to get out of speakers small enough to fit in a portable piano slab. Wasn't something I'd thought about because I'm used to playing through an amp/PA.

 

Particularly interesting was that they also had a Kawai CN29, which is the same RHIII action and same piano engine as the ES920 but in a furniture cabinet design. The speakers are in the cabinet facing downwards and the experience is SO much more "rounded" and closer to an acoustic piano. I've never really paid attention to pianos of this design before but it makes sense: having more space and options in which to design the amp and speaker system has got to help. I loved playing it.

 

So I may ask them how they'd feel about either a stage piano + amp, or a furniture cabinet setup. Both involve compromises for what they want though. The CN29's a good deal cheaper than the ES920 though.

 

I then tried the ES520 and found the drop in quality from the ES920 striking. Both the action, which is nowhere near as sensitive, and the piano sound, which is harsher, more tinny and lacking the mid-range warmth. It's apparently the same samples which is weird, but there must be something they do differently with it. The sales guy and I both agreed that the difference was night and day. Shame, as the 520's more likely to be within budget so I really wanted to like it, but I didn't.

 

On actions: I can certainly see what CyberGene means and there's no doubt the Kawais are right at the light end, but I didn't personally find that a problem from POV of gradual dynamic control. I actually found it really easy to get every gradation I wanted just like an acoustic. I loved the action. This is on the 920 I mean - that sense of gradual control was much more lacking on the 520.

 

 

[bfields]

If they're serious about continuing to study piano in college then the school *should* provide access to practice rooms with decently maintained real pianos.  When I was a non-music-major with a serious piano habit (30 years ago!), I practiced daily but never owned an instrument.

 

So personally I'd assume serious piano piano practice is going to happen on a real piano, and focus on what else they might use a keyboard for.

 

They'll likely be living in dorm rooms and such and moving 1-3 times a year, so small size and portability really does seem like a priority.

 

Even if they're not currently thinking about gigging--college is such a great time for meeting people and forming bands (or chamber groups, or whatever their thing is).  At that age I would've loved to have something I could tuck under my arm and schlep to a friend's place.

[Biggles]

From your use of £1000 then I presume you are in the UK.

 

A visit to a nearish music store will help.

 

Rimmers have a very large piano showroom in Bolton and PMT in Salford plus their other stores are well worth checking

 

Bonners of course near London

 

I would suggest if they could up their budget then there are two Kawai models to consider at c£1200.  
 

The Roland FP 90X is c£1500 so maybe a bit of a stretch but it does have the PHA50 action.

 

Right on budget at Andertons is a possible wildcard, Numa X Piano 88 @ £1000

[16251]

On 1/6/2023 at 5:40 PM, confidence said:

I then tried the ES520 and found the drop in quality from the ES920 striking. Both the action, which is nowhere near as sensitive, and the piano sound, which is harsher, more tinny and lacking the mid-range warmth. It's apparently the same samples which is weird, but there must be something they do differently with it. The sales guy and I both agreed that the difference was night and day. Shame, as the 520's more likely to be within budget so I really wanted to like it, but I didn't.

 

On actions: I can certainly see what CyberGene means and there's no doubt the Kawais are right at the light end, but I didn't personally find that a problem from POV of gradual dynamic control. I actually found it really easy to get every gradation I wanted just like an acoustic. I loved the action. This is on the 920 I mean - that sense of gradual control was much more lacking on the 520.

 

 

As a acoustic piano replacement I would probably prefer 920 for the reasons you described. I jumped ship from many Yamahas (and Rolands and Casios,) to Kawai via the 110 but my needs is to have a gigging axe. For this I want lightness in moving weight, as well as action. IMHO, sluggish is worse than lightness when you are trying to control your energy at a live gig. (I think 110/520 action grows into a phenomenal action after time. You just need time to adjust (again IMO.)

 

So, I had the 110, but it being a entry-level it lacked an pro interface and effects I was used to with my CP4. Once the 520/920 came out, I jumped on 520. It had all the upgrades I was looking for in 110. My targeting moving weight was 30lbs or less, so I had to accept it was a little over. The other thing I wanted was to not spend a great deal of money on a keyboard that will be spending most of its time in the closet. 

 

So, for an acoustic replacement sure the 920. But for a nice gigging board, with built-in speakers (not for projection to audience but for stereo image, small solo piano affairs, etc,) the 520 is my ticket.

[stoken6]

On 1/6/2023 at 10:40 PM, confidence said:

Particularly interesting was that they also had a Kawai CN29, which is the same RHIII action and same piano engine as the ES920 but in a furniture cabinet design. The speakers are in the cabinet facing downwards and the experience is SO much more "rounded" and closer to an acoustic piano. I've never really paid attention to pianos of this design before but it makes sense: having more space and options in which to design the amp and speaker system has got to help. I loved playing it.

 

On 1/6/2023 at 10:40 PM, confidence said:

The CN29's a good deal cheaper than the ES920

This sounds like an ideal solution. Is it possible to dismantle the furniture cabinet to meet the requirement of being

 

On 1/5/2023 at 2:13 PM, confidence said:

reasonably light for transport

?

EDIT I just checked the manual, and it looks reasonable (page 57). Remove four screws, unplug the power and pedals and the keyboard slides off the base. OK you lose triple pedal capability, but you can connect a separate sustain pedal if you're using the piano without the cabinet. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[confidence]

 

23 hours ago, bfields said:

If they're serious about continuing to study piano in college then the school *should* provide access to practice rooms with decently maintained real pianos.  When I was a non-music-major with a serious piano habit (30 years ago!), I practiced daily but never owned an instrument.

 

So personally I'd assume serious piano piano practice is going to happen on a real piano, and focus on what else they might use a keyboard for.

 

They'll likely be living in dorm rooms and such and moving 1-3 times a year, so small size and portability really does seem like a priority.

 

Even if they're not currently thinking about gigging--college is such a great time for meeting people and forming bands (or chamber groups, or whatever their thing is).  At that age I would've loved to have something I could tuck under my arm and schlep to a friend's place.

 

They're not planning to study music at university, just to continue playing as a hobby. But I agree with your last point and, having thought about it, I'm reluctant to recommend a furniture cabinet design. It would take care of the immediate need for a good price, but be really limiting down the line.

[confidence]

5 hours ago, stoken6 said:

EDIT I just checked the manual, and it looks reasonable (page 57). Remove four screws, unplug the power and pedals and the keyboard slides off the base. OK you lose triple pedal capability, but you can connect a separate sustain pedal if you're using the piano without the cabinet. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Do you mean that the piano could not just be transported, but be USED without the stand, like a normal slab stage piano? The sales guy gave me the impression this would be impossible or at least impractical. Although come to think about it the main reason he gave for that was that the amp and speakers were in the stand. If the keyboard could still function as a quality piano to play through an amp, as well as a top notch MIDI controller, that would still be a win. Particularly since taking it to play with other people would probably normally want an amp anyway, for volume requirements.

[Spider76]

On 1/6/2023 at 4:45 PM, CyberGene said:

 all Kawai plastic actions and the newer wooden GF actions by Kawai seem too light to me. 

Interesting, because there was a very detailed analysis (measuring key-down weight, release weight etc) of tens of models of acoustic and digital pianos, showing that on average DPs (of all brands and prices) are heavier than APs (again, many brands and prices).

I'm going from memory, but I think I remember that tipically the top APs (Steinways and such) had a very light touch, much lighter especially than the Yamaha DPs.

The thread should be here somewhere but I cannot find it.

 

I don't have access to many pianos in my town, so I can hardly comment, but in general I agree that the DPs I've played seem heavier than the uprights I've played, and even more the grands.

[CyberGene]

42 minutes ago, Spider76 said:

there was a very detailed analysis (measuring key-down weight, release weight etc) of tens of models of acoustic and digital pianos, showing that on average DPs (of all brands and prices) are heavier than APs (again, many brands and prices).

It’s an (in)famous table that is measuring the weight needed for the key to start moving and produce sound. That’s a rather unreliable measurement which won’t give you a really good idea about the action.

 

Static downweight is also not representative of how heavy an action feels. You can balance 100kg on each side of a lever and that would be 0g of downweight since any weight will cause the lever to move but it would be awfully sluggish due to the inertia of the high mass. And dynamic weight (inertia) is not easily measurable.

 

Digital pianos tend to have high static weight because a very few of them have counterweights in front of the keys. However the lack of counterweights means there’s less mass in the system, hence low inertia and a general feel of light action. And conversely, acoustic pianos have counter weights to balance the heavy hammers and action weight. This facilitates pianissimos but adds mass, hence inertia to the entire system and thus it feels heavier. It’s a bit counterintuitive after all. 

[bfields]

5 hours ago, confidence said:

They're not planning to study music at university, just to continue playing as a hobby.

Neither was I.  But my school had a music department, and they'd let non-music-students play their pianos (and take some music courses as their schedule allowed).  Is that unusual?  I recognize that my experience was decades ago in a different country....

[stoken6]

11 hours ago, confidence said:

Do you mean that the piano could not just be transported, but be USED without the stand, like a normal slab stage piano? The sales guy gave me the impression this would be impossible or at least impractical. Although come to think about it the main reason he gave for that was that the amp and speakers were in the stand.

When I looked at the manual, there were two connections from piano to stand: one for power, and one for pedals. No audio connections. This implies that there are no amps or speakers in the stand. It's just a set of flat panels (plus the pedals).  But please don't take my word for it, check for yourself and make sure you're satisfied

 

Cheers, Mike.

[confidence]

On 1/8/2023 at 11:22 PM, CyberGene said:

It’s an (in)famous table that is measuring the weight needed for the key to start moving and produce sound. That’s a rather unreliable measurement which won’t give you a really good idea about the action.

 

Static downweight is also not representative of how heavy an action feels. You can balance 100kg on each side of a lever and that would be 0g of downweight since any weight will cause the lever to move but it would be awfully sluggish due to the inertia of the high mass. And dynamic weight (inertia) is not easily measurable.

 

Digital pianos tend to have high static weight because a very few of them have counterweights in front of the keys. However the lack of counterweights means there’s less mass in the system, hence low inertia and a general feel of light action. And conversely, acoustic pianos have counter weights to balance the heavy hammers and action weight. This facilitates pianissimos but adds mass, hence inertia to the entire system and thus it feels heavier. It’s a bit counterintuitive after all. 

The Kawai RHIII action does have counterweights though. In general I agree with Spider76 that DPs trying hard to do the acoustic piano simulation thing, such as the higher end Yamahas, tend to have subjectively heavier actions than most good quality acoustic grands. The RHIII was an exception to this and as I said above, I didn't find the relative lightness a problem from the point of view of controllability. I wonder if the counterweights might be a reason for that.

[Mighty Motif Max]

On 1/8/2023 at 8:48 PM, bfields said:

Neither was I.  But my school had a music department, and they'd let non-music-students play their pianos (and take some music courses as their schedule allowed).  Is that unusual?  I recognize that my experience was decades ago in a different country....

At my school, ensembles are open to any student (and can count towards a general credit area), but there are limited pianos available to all students. We used to have all the piano practice rooms open, but apparently non-music students beat the pianos up quite a bit. So today there are a few rooms with old uprights in them that remain from the previous era, but the better uprights are keycard access only for music students, and then there are three nice Yamaha grands that are limited to students in applied piano lessons only. I originally added a music minor when I came to college just so I could have access to practice rooms and better pianos.

[confidence]

On 1/10/2023 at 9:25 PM, Mighty Motif Max said:

At my school, ensembles are open to any student (and can count towards a general credit area), but there are limited pianos available to all students. We used to have all the piano practice rooms open, but apparently non-music students beat the pianos up quite a bit. So today there are a few rooms with old uprights in them that remain from the previous era, but the better uprights are keycard access only for music students, and then there are three nice Yamaha grands that are limited to students in applied piano lessons only. I originally added a music minor when I came to college just so I could have access to practice rooms and better pianos.

Funny - and completely true - story: Once in my younger days I was on holiday in Paris, and visited the esteemed Paris Conservatoire. It appeared strangely open and relaxed, so not wanting to get too out of practice during my holiday I thought I'd try my luck. Wandered in, there was noone at the reception desk so I just walked straight through. Went up and down a few corridors, found a room with a nice looking piano - went in, sat down and started practising.

 

After about 15 minutes a caretaker/janitor type looking guy knocked on the door and came in jangling a set of keys. He looked quite agitated, and spoke a very long paragraph to me in French with barely a pause for breath, of which I understood not a single word but could tell from intonation that it ended with a question. Not having a clue what to do, having nothing to lose and wishing ideally to avoid being arrested, I looked him straight in the eye and confidently shouted: "OUI! OUI MONSIEUR!" Whereupon he looked immediately humbled and satisfied, muttered something apologetic and left. I then continued to practise away happily for the rest of the afternoon.

 

To this day I've always wondered what it was he said.