Backline question

[TommyRude]

Question for experienced road pro's!  I haven't worked with a backline before.  I'm using Mainstage for virtually 100% of my patches, splits/layers, pedal assignments.  Locally, I use my Nord Electro 6 and Roland A800 for my controllers.  These boards may not always be available in the backline.  Other boards i.e. Kronos, Montage may be available,

 

How do you guys handle backlines?  When you show up and they have different boards, do you have to reprogram all of your patches, assignments, mapping, splits, etc etc for each show?  That sounds like a lot of work.  There may be a function in Mainstage I haven't gotten to yet, that might make this easy peasy.

 

Any other backline tips, tricks and watchouts are greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks so much!

[CowboyNQ]

Caveat:  I am a “hardware only guy”.

 

I take 2 lightweight 61-key ‘boards with me as checked baggage.  These have all my custom sounds on them.

 

I always hire an 88-key stage piano plus stands if I’m travelling long distances.  I generally (but not always) end up with one version or another of a Roland RD.  But whatever piano I get, they can all do AP, Wurli, Rhodes, Strings and Organ sounds.

 

I spend a little bit of time at soundcheck fiddling with the sounds and familiarising myself with the UI so I can get to what I need quickly.  Now and then I have to Google a user manual but this is rare - as I said I get Rolands often and they’re pretty easy to come to grips with.

 

There is an element of compromise with action and sound doing it this way but I reconciled myself to that reality long ago,

[mate stubb]

I'm not a software guy but if I was, I would have all sounds on the computer, along with splits and patch change commands. The only requirement of backline would be an ability to transmit midi on channel 1.

[TommyRude]

Thanks guys.  I guess my question is primarily about Mainstage and how to use it with different boards - quickly.  In the event it's not quick or easy to adapt, I need to have have alternate plans, i.e. the hardware method.  I haven't done any googling yet on this topic - came here first!  I'm sure there are several good routes to take.  I'd definitely love to figure out how to adapt Mainstage for this - it's so nice having all the sets, splits/layers, sounds all dialed in - I'm addicted! 😂

 

I have a Triton gathering dust in storage.  I'll break that out and experiment.  (hey, there's an idea haha)

[Docbop]

Or take a cue from the red  paperweight thread and buy the "Marcel Marceau Piano Technique" book and smile or maybe the Thelonious Monk's "Dancing for Pianists"

[Reezekeys]

Mate got it right - everything must be programmed in Mainstage, and be playable from any keyboard that sends on channel 1. I'll add that if you normally use your own keyboards' controls to manipulate your Mainstage rig, you should probably bring something like a Korg NanoKontrol with its buttons, sliders, pads, etc. programmed with the same midi commands. Never count on getting the keyboard you asked for backlined!

 

I have a Korg NanoKontrol and a stick of "artists's putty" adhesive in my backpack, and I normally carry my A800 with me, so it's just insurance in case anything happens and I need a different board. It's happened twice in 10 years - once when the A800's USB stopped transmitting midi (I could have used the A800's 5-pin jack but back then I wasn't carrying a midi interface, my bad), and once when a trip on a strange airline precluded me bringing my own keyboard (baggage charges!) and I used a rental. For these occasions, all I need is a keyboard with at least 61 keys that can transmit on midi channel 1 and has a working sustain pedal jack (I carry a small "emergency" sustain footswitch too).

[MAJUSCULE]

Harder to do for a full tour, but if you're just flying in for one or two dates, you should be able to contact someone at the backline company or the venue who can give you a clue as to what keyboard you'll have once you arrive, allowing you to prepare with that in mind. That doesn't guarantee that they'll know or be right about it, of course, but it hopefully gives you an idea (and allows you to suss out how detail-oriented and prepared they may or may not be).

[Adam Burgess]

3 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

Mate got it right - everything must be programmed in Mainstage, and be playable from any keyboard that sends on channel 1. I'll add that if you normally use your own keyboards' controls to manipulate your Mainstage rig, you should probably bring something like a Korg NanoKontrol with its buttons, sliders, pads, etc. programmed with the same midi commands. Never count on getting the keyboard you asked for backlined!

 

I have a Korg NanoKontrol and a stick of "artists's putty" adhesive in my backpack, and I normally carry my A800 with me, so it's just insurance in case anything happens and I need a different board. It's happened twice in 10 years - once when the A800's USB stopped transmitting midi (I could have used the A800's 5-pin jack but back then I wasn't carrying a midi interface, my bad), and once when a trip on a strange airline precluded me bringing my own keyboard (baggage charges!) and I used a rental. For these occasions, all I need is a keyboard with at least 61 keys that can transmit on midi channel 1 and has a working sustain pedal jack (I carry a small "emergency" sustain footswitch too).

This is the correct answer 🙂 A NanoKontrol is tiny and pretty foolproof.

You never know what state the backline will be in. I've backlined a Kronos before, and got a Motif (never used one and no time to find my way around it at all) - that wasn't exactly a fun gig. I backlined a Stage2 one day - and it played like a total dog. Was ruined. Easier (as also said above) to get a Roland RD/A500/A800 and a couple of pedals - just let MainStage do everything.

[Iconoclast]

This really isn't as hard as it seems.  I've played with guys who did this and as long as your Mainstage rig isn't too complicated you should be able to accommodate a wide variety of controllers.

Put in your rider a couple of choices that you are familiar with that meet your requirements.

Then put in some secondary criteria in case it's not available. Something like: "Any substitutions to the list must be coordinated in advance but in any case need to meet the following criteria: 88 key weighted action midi controller with midi over USB with an expression and volume pedal."

If you're using two keyboards like you said...it's going to be exponentially more difficult. But Nord stuff is pretty popular with backline companies.

More to your question; NO I would not expect to be re-programming splits and layers for each different backline configuration. That's just asking for trouble and is way too much work.

[TommyRude]

Thank you guys, greatly appreciated!  Yeah - it's more about the mapping of patches, splits and layers and pedals to TWO boards.  I'll have everything fully dialed in on Mainstage with my local/home boards, I'm just wondering if all those same assignments will show up similarly on diff boards.  Just hook up the midi and everything is perfect!!  hahaha

 

It's quite possible they'll provide the exact boards I'd like, I mean a Nord and a Roland... c'mon! 😂. The sample backline doc I reviewed listed a Kronos, Montage, and Motif.  That simply may have been what was requested on another scenario.

 

I'll also look into optimizing / minimizing splits, where I can get away with it... one patch on one board, and one on the other, eliminate pedals unless absolutely necessary, eliminate any potential sources of failure.

[TommyRude]

adding.... I'll be experimenting with different boards at home, and I'll report back. I have a Korg in storage - should be a good example if it works or not.

 

I'm hoping that the beauty of Mainstage and all the setup, sounds and assignments are easily recognized by any controller! 🙏😁

 

AND... thank you all again!  Reading all the responses, each has something that's triggering and helping!

[JimboKeys]

I know next to nothing about Mainstage, being strictly a PC guy, but for your two-keyboard setup i'd strongly recommend getting a 2x2 MIDI interface and using 5-pin MIDI from the boards.  That way if you always plug the top keyboard into MIDI input 1 and the bottom board into MIDI input 2, it'll work the same no matter what make or model of keyboards you get.

 

-- Jimbo

[Reezekeys]

 

 

27 minutes ago, JimboKeys said:

for your two-keyboard setup i'd strongly recommend getting a 2x2 MIDI interface and using 5-pin MIDI from the boards.

 

I agree. I've posted before about how I switched my setup from using USB midi to 5-pin midi, mostly due to the issue of cable length. When dealing with backlined boards and USB, there's also the slight possibility of winding up with an older non-class compliant keyboard that needs a driver installed for USB operation. There's guaranteed to be no such issue with 5-pin!

[TommyRude]

yeah... on the midi connections - thanks for those points, I will bring a selection of midi hubs, cables, with a variety of connection types, including the 5-pin.  Currently I'm using all USB-C to/from the mac, and the board's (and key largo's) USB-B ports, and a nice low profile midi hub between.  All working great - but as you say, who knows what you'll get, so good to be prepared, including the lengths of the cables - need them to be long enough in a pinch!

[B4i]

the layout page is where you want to focus in mainstage

 

for your home gigs presumably you have each of your physical keyboards mapped to an onscreen virtual keyboard in MainStage on the layout page. Each patch you create will allocate channel strips to the virtual keyboards (so you have splits and layers on each keyboard) 

 

At your away gigs all you need to do is to go into the layout screen and allocate the back line boards to the virtual MainStage keyboards. Do the same with any other controllers you use which are different to the home gig 

 

I do this when I practice at home as for gifting my Nord Wave connects via midi to the Key Largo. However at home it’s plumbed into my AMT-8

 

The only limitation I have found with the above is I use external instrument channel strips to send patch changes out to the Nord Wave. These do not remap and I need to change the destination of each channel strip manually. However I don’t think this will be an issue for you as you won’t be changing patches on your back line boards

[TommyRude]

9 hours ago, B4i said:

At your away gigs all you need to do is to go into the layout screen and allocate the back line boards to the virtual MainStage keyboards. Do the same with any other controllers you use which are different to the home gig 

Thanks for this!  Ques - in the layout screen board-allocation process, is that a 'do-it-once' deal, and it applies to all the patches within a concert?  Or do you need to go patch by patch?

[B4i]

It’s a do it once deal. I guess the MainStage developers were thinking of this exact situation (or by happy chance that is what they have achieved)

 

its only not a do it once deal as I said above where individual channel strips are sending midi data out rather than receiving it in

 

you could try it with your triton to see how it plays out 

[TommyRude]

Dug out the Triton, tried it out - works like a charm!  TOO EASY! 😂. Thanks B4i and all!

[TommyRude]

More backline questions..  curious what you guys bring with you?  I'm thinking a cable bag with all the requisite odds and ends that could save a scenario.  Spare expression & damper pedal?  Extra/misc cables?  Midi connectors? Extra power strip?

 

I guess ideally you list everything out on the backline request, and it all shows up perfectly at every venue, and everything works.  You just show up with your laptop or whatever patch system you have, plug it in, all works quickly.  But that sounds pretty Pollyannish, I would imagine that things don't go as planned more often than they go correctly?

 

Way back in the day, we would bring everything with us.

[obxa]

I list everything but still  always bring a  little generic square sustain pedal (with polarity switch) and a plastic M-audio volume pedal.  I've been on dates in remote places where the backline company forgot, or brought  broken pedals.  The Expression pedal is always the one they forget.    Also  adaptors, a  midi interface, plus bluetooth midi.. I use bluetooth if Mainstage is being used as secondary sound source, and latency isn't as crucial.  Also a little midi controller  to tweak things(see below)

 

 I also ask the artist / artist's manager, or promoter for a contact to the backline company so I can call and confirm things myself.  It's not being a diva-  they often appreciate hearing directly from you, and avoids second/third hand info back and forth.   If on a multi band gig,  I'll confirm what's going to be there so I know what I'm up against. 

 

With that,  I also list 2nd and 3rd choices on the rider.  Domestic regions (and countries) can have way different access to certain keyboards.  

 

Just to add to the excellent replies above:  the more centralized your mainstage rig is the better- I bring a nano controller so that everything can be controlled from even the most pre-historic of keyboards.  Even on gigs where i'm just asking for Slab piano and B3, I still bring Mainstage as back up. 

 

Something else I started doing to avoid the evils and temptations of the road.... If I'm in a set place for more than 3 days- I'll ask the backline company for a practice keyboard to use in the hotel room. I also bring a snack sized Akai controller so I can work on charts, tweak Mainstage, or do some writing. 

 

Best of luck!

[obxa]

Oh and one more thing to enjoy the ride:   I carry a well worn copy of the Tofu Tolllboth.   

Though I'm no longer a strict vegetarian,  it's got great healthy places to eat and some worthwhile sightseeing things to see all over the states.  But check to make sure places are still in business post- covid.   I'm fortunate that one of the bass players I work with is a Rick Steves devotee.  He always has great ideas for things to do on off days when abroad. 

 

[Iconoclast]

It might be worth it if you're going to do a lot of fly gigs, to get your rig down to a single keyboard. If you're using Mainstage for all your sounds, there's really no reason why you can't do it.  That way, if you get to the gig and you have some setup issues, you only have to change the parameters of one keyboard and not two keyboards.

[yannis D]

In fly in gigs I always backline some sort of Nord stage keyboard and I run the majority of my sounds from MS. Usually my patches are pretty straightforward (one patch per song 2woth all the splits and layers programmed within MS) but if I need tweaking, I use Korg Nanokontrol for faders, sliders, knobs etc. Nord is a simple controller and I also use the AP and sometimes the EP sounds.

Get a Korg Nanokontrol type of controller and you will never have to reassign your patches to every new keyboard the backline company will bring 

 

[TommyRude]

35 minutes ago, obxa said:

I list everything but still  always bring a  little generic square sustain pedal (with polarity switch) and a plastic M-audio volume pedal.  I've been on dates in remote places where the backline company forgot, or brought  broken pedals.  The Expression pedal is always the one they forget.    Also  adaptors, a  midi interface, plus bluetooth midi.. I use bluetooth if Mainstage is being used as secondary sound source, and latency isn't as crucial.  Also a little midi controller  to tweak things(see below)

 

 I also ask the artist / artist's manager, or promoter for a contact to the backline company so I can call and confirm things myself.  It's not being a diva-  they often appreciate hearing directly from you, and avoids second/third hand info back and forth.   If on a multi band gig,  I'll confirm what's going to be there so I know what I'm up against. 

 

With that,  I also list 2nd and 3rd choices on the rider.  Domestic regions (and countries) can have way different access to certain keyboards.  

 

Just to add to the excellent replies above:  the more centralized your mainstage rig is the better- I bring a nano controller so that everything can be controlled from even the most pre-historic of keyboards.  Even on gigs where i'm just asking for Slab piano and B3, I still bring Mainstage as back up. 

 

Something else I started doing to avoid the evils and temptations of the road.... If I'm in a set place for more than 3 days- I'll ask the backline company for a practice keyboard to use in the hotel room. I also bring a snack sized Akai controller so I can work on charts, tweak Mainstage, or do some writing. 

 

Best of luck!

Hey OBXA, thanks for this awesome guidance!  I do have a nano controller, but I've never used it hahahaha!  I think that will change 😁

[TommyRude]

7 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

It might be worth it if you're going to do a lot of fly gigs, to get your rig down to a single keyboard. If you're using Mainstage for all your sounds, there's really no reason why you can't do it.  That way, if you get to the gig and you have some setup issues, you only have to change the parameters of one keyboard and not two keyboards.

hey Iconoclast, I've thought about that - it might end up going that way, and I may bring my own Nord to start as insurance.  But most of the patches I anticipate will be four sounds split across two boards, i.e. lower board left, lower board right, upper left, etc.

 

And noting my test this morning using the Korg Triton - - this is a pretty old board, sitting in storage in a cardboard box (for shame!), the thing is looking crusty and old, the switches and buttons are all yellowing, the old school led-type screen flickering, pixelating and fading, pretty bad!  And Mainstage - using the layout feature - recognized it, I assigned it, and instantly worked perfectly in all my test patches.  Very cool!  So that was a good test.

[TommyRude]

12 minutes ago, yannis D said:

In fly in gigs I always backline some sort of Nord stage keyboard and I run the majority of my sounds from MS. Usually my patches are pretty straightforward (one patch per song 2woth all the splits and layers programmed within MS) but if I need tweaking, I use Korg Nanokontrol for faders, sliders, knobs etc. Nord is a simple controller and I also use the AP and sometimes the EP sounds.

Get a Korg Nanokontrol type of controller and you will never have to reassign your patches to every new keyboard the backline company will bring 

 

Thanks Yannis... I'm going to search the forum for notes on the nano controller - seems like a ubiquitous tool.  I think Reeze mentioned earlier about using putty to secure the nano control, is that how you do it?

[Iconoclast]

4 minutes ago, TommyRude said:

hey Iconoclast, I've thought about that - it might end up going that way, and I may bring my own Nord to start as insurance.  But most of the patches I anticipate will be four sounds split across two boards, i.e. lower board left, lower board right, upper left, etc.

 

And noting my test this morning using the Korg Triton - - this is a pretty old board, sitting in storage in a cardboard box (for shame!), the thing is looking crusty and old, the switches and buttons are all yellowing, the old school led-type screen flickering, pixelating and fading, pretty bad!  And Mainstage - using the layout feature - recognized it, I assigned it, and instantly worked perfectly in all my test patches.  Very cool!  So that was a good test.

I think on this board, or maybe a different facebook page, someone once took a poll about to what extent different players relied on splits vs program changes.  I will say that as time has gone on I have switched from a guy with a lot of splits per patch to a guy who typically has fewer splits but more patch changes. As Mainstage and VSTs have started to take over more of my live performance, as a result I've also changed to bringing less keyboards.

The first dude I ever played with who did everything on Mainstage only ever plays with a single board, and that was a bit of a revelation to me.

[yannis D]

3 minutes ago, TommyRude said:

Thanks Yannis... I'm going to search the forum for notes on the nano controller - seems like a ubiquitous tool.  I think Reeze mentioned earlier about using putty to secure the nano control, is that how you do it?

I put it on a music stand usually, near my keyboard. It's easier than using anything to stick it to a rental keyboard 

[Iconoclast]

Nano Kontrol is a no brainer. So cheap and just works. It's got a place in a lot of my rigs.

[obxa]

Yeah I first learned about the marriage of MS and the Nano in Worship world.   

 

 I've bought a couple of overlays on Ebay (in cool colors)  that can be written on w grease pencil, but  often just use 1/3"  post-it tape on it to mark settings.  Also great with Mainstage is the Behringer X touch mini.   Easier to see and more stout,  but not as compact to travel with- I use that  on local gigs.