On-stage 2-tier Z stand issue (KS7365EJ)

[Sean M. H.]

Seen various mentions of this two tier Z-stand over the years.  The biggest "con" I recall seeing is that it isn't the easiest thing to pack up for transport.   But I don't remember hearing much chatter about stability issues.

 

Maybe, I'm doing something wrong, but I just put mine together, and it's almost unusable.  It wants to tilt backwards (away from the player)!  Even without the board on there, you can feel it, and with boards it's even worse.  The front of the legs (the larger part of the Z) are almost hovering off the floor ever so slightly, and with just the smallest bit of force, the stand can be pushed backwards.  I can't figure out if 1) I've put it together wrong or 2) perhaps it's defective...

 

Also, I'm no physics guru or mechanical engineer, but just looking at pictures of the assembled stand, I don't see how this could not be an issue given the design.  The vast majority of the weight is behind the vertical uprights of the Z.  Am I missing something?  Note: the stand does get a bit more stable if I raise its height, but that's because the center of gravity moves slightly forward as the height increases (due to the angle of the "upright" portion of the 'Z')...in any case, I'd be playing seated, so that doesn't really help me.

 

I'm thinking the stand would actually be more stable if I could flip the 'Z' around and have it such that the bottom legs are facing backwards and the top part of the 'Z' holding the keyboard is facing the player.  That would put the weight of the second tier more over the center of mass.  Unfortunately, I don't think it's even possible to make that switch with this particular stand...because there's no way to attach the second tier to the to the opposite side (there's a hinge/screw on that side for folding/unfolding the 'Z'; that screw would prevent the second tier from sliding in, unless I'm missing something)

 

What gives?  Would love to hear that I'm doing something really silly here lol

 

[time4jazz]

I have this exact stand, including the second tier, and do not have any issues with the stability of the stand.

[timwat]

I don't have the stand (and have never owned a Z stand). 

 

So an ignorant question: Wouldn't the center of gravity problem the OP alludes to be alleviated by moving the bottom board a little forward on the supports?

[time4jazz]

Just now, timwat said:

I don't have the stand (and have never owned a Z stand). 

 

So an ignorant question: Wouldn't the center of gravity problem the OP alludes to be alleviated by moving the bottom board a little forward on the supports?

Yes, I do have the bottom keyboard at the front of the lower arms. 

[Mighty Motif Max]

Does your upper keyboard weigh more than your lower keyboard? I've used one of these for about six years and the only time I had a stability issue was when my upper-tier synth was heavier than my lower-tier board.

[DeltaJockey]

I have one of these and also the Hercules equivalent. One thing I noticed was that the diagonals slant the opposite way on the Hercules. I got the OnStage after the Hercules,

and much prefer the former. So much so that I modified the OnStage so that the diagonals were the opposite way. I would always get up and  knock my foot against the floor rails, as they stick out so far in the default config, as your picture above. This has also improved the balance, because the second tier verticals are above the mid line of the bottom tier rail. And the feet don't stick out anymore. I simply drilled one extra hole in the opposite end of the bottom tier rail, the same as the other end and mounted the top tier on it, then turned the whole stand around the opposite way. Have been using it that way for several years on carpet.

 

One thing to note, I have it on the lowest height setting though.

[Moonglow]

22 minutes ago, time4jazz said:

I have this exact stand, including the second tier, and do not have any issues with the stability of the stand.

Same. I have three of them and none have this issue. I’ve found stability to be a strong, if not the strongest, attribute of this stand.

[DJkeys]

I have had three of these and they are, once assembled, one of the most stable stands I have ever used.  Maybe you got a defective unit?

 

-dj

[time4jazz]

46 minutes ago, DeltaJockey said:

I would always get up and  knock my foot against the floor rails

Yes, this is the one thing I don’t like about the stand. 

[Sean M. H.]

1 hour ago, timwat said:

I don't have the stand (and have never owned a Z stand). 

 

So an ignorant question: Wouldn't the center of gravity problem the OP alludes to be alleviated by moving the bottom board a little forward on the supports?

 

Yes, having the bottom board as forward as possible certainly does help to a degree...just weird that I'm dealing with something that doesn't seem "normal" for this stand (based on my recollection of previous discussion, as well as a few of the other comments in this thread).

 

1 hour ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Does your upper keyboard weigh more than your lower keyboard? I've used one of these for about six years and the only time I had a stability issue was when my upper-tier synth was heavier than my lower-tier board.

 

The boards (a MODX8 on the bottom and a PC3-61 up top) are about the same, but I do have the PC3 sitting on a wooden shelf, for functional purposes.  Sure that adds a few pounds...but again, the instability is there to a degree even before putting the boards on 

[Bucktunes]

1 hour ago, Sean M. H. said:

Seen various mentions of this two tier Z-stand over the years... It wants to tilt backwards (away from the player)!  Even without the board on there, you can feel it, and with boards it's even worse.  The front of the legs (the larger part of the Z) are almost hovering off the floor ever so slightly, and with just the smallest bit of force, the stand can be pushed backwards.  I can't figure out if 1) I've put it together wrong or 2) perhaps it's defective...

 

Also, I'm no physics guru or mechanical engineer, but just looking at pictures of the assembled stand, I don't see how this could not be an issue given the design.  The vast majority of the weight is behind the vertical uprights of the Z.  Am I missing something?  Note: the stand does get a bit more stable if I raise its height, but that's because the center of gravity moves slightly forward as the height increases (do to the angle of the "upright" portion of the 'Z')

You're not wrong - it can easily tip backwards at low height positions. I have owned and used several of these stands in the last 20 years and on threads here I have cautioned about this concern. The way I've always alleviated the problem is to always have the heavier keyboard on the lower tier, and never put a keyboard on the top tier before putting the keyboard on the bottom tier. You could still push it over backwards if you tried, but don't do that! 😉

 

As far as stubbing your toes on the feet of it - For the stands at home I cut up pool noodles and tape them to the front of the feet. Not beautiful, but it's saved my toes many times! 😖

[stoken6]

4 minutes ago, Bucktunes said:

I cut up pool noodles and tape them to the front of the feet

Love this.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Sean M. H.]

2 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

I have one of these and also the Hercules equivalent. One thing I noticed was that the diagonals slant the opposite way on the Hercules. I got the OnStage after the Hercules,

and much prefer the former. 

 

Interesting.  Is that the KS410B you're talking about from Hercules?  I could possibly return the OnStage and get the Hercules.  The latter doesn't look quite as robust; it doesn't have as much support/cross-bracing...but it's not as if I've got 70 pound boards that I'll be putting on there.  Any other thoughts on the Hercules, other than that you prefer it over the On-Stage?

 

I'm not sure I'll be able to use the stand as-is.  Obviously, the weight of my boards is what it is, so that variable won't change anytime soon.  I'm thinking I'll either need to modify the stand in some way, or swap it for something else like the Hercules.  Thinking the latter might make more sense, just given that I'm still well within the return time-frame. 

 

It's still kinda interesting though that a couple of you guys have seen the same issue I'm seeing, while others are saying the stand is rock solid.  I wonder if that could indicate some sort of QA inconsistencies?  It certainly wouldn't take much variance in terms of machining/drilling etc to change the angles of the tiers/legs and throw off the balance slightly.

[DeltaJockey]

1 hour ago, Sean M. H. said:

 

Interesting.  Is that the KS410B you're talking about from Hercules?  I could possibly return the OnStage and get the Hercules.  The latter doesn't look quite as robust; it doesn't have as much support/cross-bracing...but it's not as if I've got 70 pound boards that I'll be putting on there.  Any other thoughts on the Hercules, other than that you prefer it over the On-Stage?

 

I'm not sure I'll be able to use the stand as-is.  Obviously, the weight of my boards is what it is, so that variable won't change anytime soon.  I'm thinking I'll either need to modify the stand in some way, or swap it for something else like the Hercules.  Thinking the latter might make more sense, just given that I'm still well within the return time-frame. 

 

It's still kinda interesting though that a couple of you guys have seen the same issue I'm seeing, while others are saying the stand is rock solid.  I wonder if that could indicate some sort of QA inconsistencies?  It certainly wouldn't take much variance in terms of machining/drilling etc to change the angles of the tiers/legs and throw off the balance slightly.

Yes  it is the KS410B, and yes you are right, it is not as robust as the OnStage. Also, the top tier angle adjustment is a ballbearing snap lock with only 2 positions.

It's redeeming factor is the slant and balance.

 

I think the variability in experiences is down to the particular setup and weight distribution, not QA, which is why I have customised it to my requirements. In fact, currently I'm using it as a studio desk. I have a Kawai MP11SE on the bottom as my controller, and the second tier is horizontal at the same level as the top of the MP, with a shelf across it and my computer, monitor, audio interface module etc on it. I have the second tier arms mounted backwards, to allow the shelf to butt up against the back of the keyboard.

I have also used it with 2 synths at times.

As you can see, I've done a lot of work to sort out the balance, configuration. I think if you just think about how you do your setup, you may make it work. Once you got the distances and angles, you would be able to set that with perhaps some self adhesive rubbers in the right positions. That's what I've done in any case.

My main complaint, as I said was the legs sticking out on the floor, and I liked how the Hercules was setup in this regard. But you also have be to mindful of balance with Z frames that have second tiers anyway, it's the nature of them.

[EscapeRocks]

I'll simply add to the chorus of never had an issue with mine.

As long as bottom board is heavier than top, it is rock solid.

 

I've even used it in the past as a 3-tier stand

Roland FA-08 bottom

Yamaha MOXF6 middle

Arturia Keylab 61 top

 

[Sean M. H.]

I hear ya David.  If it wasn't for the fact that the problem is there with or without the boards, I could certainly buy that it's a use-case/configuration thing (i.e. heavier board on top)...but it seems unstable from the beginning. I've even taken a level to the base stand (without the second tier and without any board on it), and even like that, the arms where the first keyboard would rest are not level; the rear (away from the player) is lower, as if the stand is already tilting backwards just a bit.  That's why I mentioned the possibility of a defect.  If either 1)an arm/leg is bent and not square...or 2) the holes that lock the 'Z' in place once you unfold it are slightly skewed, I could see that causing this issue.  But I still think the design leaves a little bit to be desired, just in terms of mass and center of gravity, just to my novice eyes.  

 

This is also my first Z-stand as well, so I'm sure some of it is just the nature of such stands (as DeltaJockey said above).  As we've discussed in countless threads in this forum, virtually all of these keyboard stands have drawbacks and compromises for sure 

[Justin Havu]

I've had mine for over 15 years without any issues.  Like Dave (EscapeRocks), I've even used it in a 3-tier configuration without any issues, even with an RD-1000, 01/W ProX, and a MODX7.

[DeltaJockey]

39 minutes ago, Sean M. H. said:

but it seems unstable from the beginning. I've even take a level to the base stand (without the second tier and without any board on it), and even like that, the arms where the first keyboard would rest are not level; the rear (away from the player) is lower, as if the stand is already tilting backwards just a bit.  That's why I mentioned the possibility of a defect. 

 

Ok, maybe there is a defect in yours making it worse. I wouldn't say mine was quite that finicky! I know from the various stands I've had, there can be slight skewing of the welds making left/right arm alignment a bit off, and I suppose if you have a misalignment in the ends which matter for stability... well there you go.

 

When mine is empty, it does have a propensity to want to fall backwards. I needs to have the centre of gravity such to be balance with a heavy keyboard on the front lower.

You could add some extra rear feet perhaps.

[DeltaJockey]

3 minutes ago, Sean M. H. said:

A quick look at Sweetwater user reviews for the KS7365EJ shows that this is in fact a thing with this stand.  While the reviews are overwhelmingly positive and suggest that this is a great option--as several of you forumites can attest--there are indeed a handful of reviews that 1)have horror stories of their gear falling backwards or 2) express the importance of having a heavy bottom board to prevent such accidents.

 

For now, I'll probably go ahead and order the Hercules, or some other stand design altogether...and then once I have them both on-hand I'll decide in the next week or two whether to keep the other one or try and modify the OnStage stand to make it work for me

The Hercules is still a good stand. It's difference in foldup can be a positive. There's less screwing together than the ONStage. It also has a leveling ring for the feet on uneven surfaces.

[Sean M. H.]

4 minutes ago, DeltaJockey said:

Ok, maybe there is a defect in yours making it worse. I wouldn't say mine was quite that finicky! I know from the various stands I've had, there can be slight skewing of the welds making left/right arm alignment a bit off, and I suppose if you have a misalignment in the ends which matter for stability... well there you go.

 

When mine is empty, it does have a propensity to want to fall backwards. I needs to have the centre of gravity such to be balance with a heavy keyboard on the front lower.

You could add some extra rear feet perhaps.

 

 

Thanks for the feedback/details Delta...I did actually take off the front feet (they're maybe a half inch or so high) to try to level things out a bit.  Believe it helped, but things still aren't quite level (again, before even adding the boards)

 

A quick look at Sweetwater user reviews for the KS7365EJ shows that this is in fact a thing with this stand.  While the reviews are overwhelmingly positive and suggest that this is a great option--as several of you forumites can attest--there are indeed a handful of reviews that 1)have horror stories of their gear falling backwards or 2) express the importance of having a heavy bottom board to prevent such accidents.

 

For now, I'll probably go ahead and order the Hercules, or some other stand design altogether*...and then once I have them both on-hand I'll decide in the next week or two whether to keep the other one or try and modify the OnStage stand to make it work for me

 

*regarding alternate stands, if weight/transportability is not a factor (this stand will stay in my basement recording setup), what do you guys recommend for a 2-tier setup?  I thought Z-stands might be the best option if it doesn't have to move (the biggest downsides I always heard about were disassembly and transport)...but maybe that's not the case 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

If it helps to determine if the stand is faultily made grab a small spirit level (bubble in a glass rod) and place it on the 2 legs and the corresponding 2 arms

 

If any are out of wack the bubble will tell you. (Edit added: assuming there are no odd sized rubber feet to alter that)

 

You could also use a Plumb Bob (lead weight on a string) to determine squareness of legs or arms in relation to gravity and the floor. (Edit added : You can use a set square to closely determine any deviation from perfect)

 

This will at least tell you if its square to the vertical. Something an eye cant always determine.

[Stokely]

Mine is very stable overall but the one exception is...going over backward.  This was mainly an issue with a heavy keyboard on top.  And never, ever take the bottom keyboard off first.  I never had it actually go over but I felt it get a bit "light" in that direction a couple times.

[EscapeRocks]

it truly does sound like you may have one where the welds are a bit off.

 

I bought a second one a year ago, and the weld points were not quiet right, and made attaching the 2nd tier almost impossible

 

When I did get in attatched, it wasn't level.   The store replaced it right away for me, and it's been fine since

 

[Mr -G-]

Can you post a photo/view from the side? It looks like the 2nd tier is already "outside" the end of the leg.

[Sean M. H.]

5 minutes ago, Mr -G- said:

Can you post a photo/view from the side? It looks like the 2nd tier is already "outside" the end of the leg.

 

 

Not currently home to take a picture of my own stand, but here's a close picture of the second tier attachment into the base stand

 

[Sean M. H.]

Quick update...

 

Recieved the Hercules 410B last night.  It will definitely work better for me than the On-stage.  It's easier to assemble, easier to adjust, takes up less floorspace, and, most importantly: is much more stable with my particular configuration.  The top-tier could be a bit more adjustable (would like its lowest setting to be a bit lower, and more angles would be nice)...but overall, it seems really great!

[DeltaJockey]

That's pretty much my experience too!

 

(This is why I modified my OnStage so that the angles were the same as my Hercules.)

 

Good Luck