Nords, they're everywhere. Should they be?

[eric]

I'll share a couple of video snippets to demonstrate how the Nord Stage sounds are working for me:

 

 

 

[Josh Paxton]

I owned and gigged with the Electros 1 through 3, then a Stage 2. Loved a lot of things about them, and hated a few things, which seemed to compound with each new model. When my Stage 2 was stolen, I replaced it with an Electro 5... and suddenly I hated it. The sounds had grown stale for me, and there were more weirdly frustrating limitations than ever, and every time I gigged with it, it made me unhappy. I think I sold it within a month of buying it. Every once in a while I'll play one at a store or something, and I always end up thinking the same thing: "Yup, these things are useful, well-built, reliable, convenient, and utterly uninspiring."  These days I'm extremely satisfied with my YC61 for the roles the various Electros used to play.

 

But I've gotta say the one thing I still miss about them is the Clav. After all these years I have yet to find a hardware Clav that can beat the Nord. In fact if I played more Clav I might be convinced to use one just for that. Such is life in the imperfect world of instruments imitating other instruments.

[Paul Vnuk Jr.]

In addition to being an audio engineer, I am also the Tech Director of a mid sized church and the worship director and I keep wondering if its truly worth it to upgrade from our Yamaha MOXF8 to a Nord Piano or Nord Stage. I know the quality is solid, but they are pretty expensive when most of our players just want piano, electric piano and occasional organ sounds with 88 great feeling keys.

[Docbop]

18 minutes ago, Paul Vnuk Jr. said:

In addition to being an audio engineer, I am also the Tech Director of a mid sized church and the worship director and I keep wondering if its truly worth it to upgrade from our Yamaha MOXF8 to a Nord Piano or Nord Stage. I know the quality is solid, but they are pretty expensive when most of our players just want piano, electric piano and occasional organ sounds with 88 great feeling keys.

I worked in a large church for awhile and we had both a workstation and excellent Yamaha acoustic.   As much as we limited the use of those keyboard to services and special events they got beat up pretty good.    While I was there we had to get the keybed on the Yamaha rebuilt, luckily one of the member was a top piano tuner tech in L.A. and did it for us for a crazy good price.   We have two other old grands for the utility rooms they looked really sad, but were playable.  Then for small and outdoor events with had a less expensive keyboard.     I have a Nord and I don't know if I would buy one for a church because of price the keybeds get noisy and the beating church piano take even the sanctuary piano.  Of course you sign on the piano "No Pentecostals" they can really beat the hell out of a piano. <grin>

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, Paul Vnuk Jr. said:

In addition to being an audio engineer, I am also the Tech Director of a mid sized church and the worship director and I keep wondering if its truly worth it to upgrade from our Yamaha MOXF8 to a Nord Piano or Nord Stage. I know the quality is solid, but they are pretty expensive when most of our players just want piano, electric piano and occasional organ sounds with 88 great feeling keys.

 

"occasional organ" would make Nord Piano a very questionable choice, since its organs capabilities are worse than the MOXF8.

 

"most of our players just want..." is one thing... what do the remaining players want? Because if it were only for piano, EP, and some organ, the Stage is overkill, and probably unnecessarily complicated besides, if you're going to have a variety of people using it with varying levels of background. I could almost suggest sticking with the Electro, except you can't get the 88 great feeling keys. But it also depends on what those other players might need...

 

Some possible alternatives that could likely satisfy at least "most" of them... Kawai MP7SE, Korg SV2, Yamaha YC88 or CP88. 

 

 

[zephonic]

3 hours ago, Paul Vnuk Jr. said:

In addition to being an audio engineer, I am also the Tech Director of a mid sized church and the worship director and I keep wondering if its truly worth it to upgrade from our Yamaha MOXF8 to a Nord Piano or Nord Stage. I know the quality is solid, but they are pretty expensive when most of our players just want piano, electric piano and occasional organ sounds with 88 great feeling keys.

 

I would think a more logical replacement would be the Yamaha MODX8?

 

[hrestov]

I was a owner of nord stage 2 ex HP, and then a nord stage 2 HA. The HP have a velocity curve too light, and a bad feel taste. Especially piano sounds are too bright, too metallic. And the keybed is quite bad. Then I downgrade to 2 76HA and the things went better: better velocity and better keybed.
But the piano sounds good only in stereo, so when I was monitoring in mono (or only L or R), it doesn’t sound good. 
 

Rhodes are meh… and amp simulator are not so good. 
Clavinet is decent. 
 

Organ is good. 

 

So after a couple of year I turn to Yamaha cp73, that has a piano sound that for me is better. Good also in mono. The Rhodes are oneslty far better than nord’s. When I have to use hammond I use iPad. 
So for me Nord is not too good, especially for piano and Rhodes sounds. 
 

[jejefunkyman]

Interesting discussion on the Nord's keyboards 😉 For me, the biggest complain I would have is that they are simply too expensive. I think one can find better value for money elsewhere.

For example, I once considered getting a Nord Electro 5D to have a good sounding lightweight board for APs, EPs and organs to carry to rehearsals. But I ended up getting a Korg Vox Continental which at the time was much cheaper and also good sounding (tried both in a music shop).

Of course, I recognize that the Electro had better features than the Conti (especially physical drawbars and split capabilities), but still I felt better spending less to get the Conti.  And the split functionality was (and still is) for me not a must, as I prefer playing with two keyboards.

What I like nonetheless from Nord and wish my favorite brand (Korg :-)) would offer on other boards besides the Kronos and the Nautilus, is the possibility to exchange or expand the factory sounds by other ones from the sound library. From user perspective, I think it's a very good selling point.

Also I must say that I was not completely thrilled by the AP and the EP sounds on the Electro. But it was already 2 or 3 years ago, and I believe the latest ones available on Electro 6 and Nord Piano 5 are maybe better. But anyway, I don't have any plan at the moment to buy a new board. I'm rather thinking on checking new software emulations especially for Rhodes.

[hrestov]

24 minutes ago, jejefunkyman said:

Also I must say that I was not completely thrilled by the AP and the EP sounds on the Electro. But it was already 2 or 3 years ago, and I believe the latest ones available on Electro 6 and Nord Piano 5 are maybe better.

The White Grand, the last piano, is arrived in summer 2019. The last Rhodes is 2016.  So I think you heard the last acoustic and electric piano of nord. 
 

Returning to the effects section, I think the amp simulator are the same of nord stage 1, how many years ago? 12? 15? I think nord should improve some things to improve:

1 - a steinway mode d or yamaha c7/cfx piano sample, with the same quality of white grand (that is a strange piano, good quality, but strange). Royal d is good, but few sustain

2 - a better Rhodes, that yamaha, korg and probably also Roland and casio are better than nord nowday

3 - better section effects, especially amp sim

 

But in the last year very very few improvements from nord… if you don’t improve, the other brands will overtake you. 

[Legatoboy]

they are good overpriced boards.... I have an Electro 5 and still digging it, the piano samples record well... I usually MIDI to it in a 2 tier rig for live shows... But I'm, not spending 5K+ (N. Stage) on anything but an acoustic piano...it's just that simple.... but I can understand why folks like them and spend the $. I just prefer to stretch my $ out and have multiple choices of boards to chose from for gigging or recording.... but if you were to select 1, (depending on the music you play) a Nord Stage is a good choice to cover a lot of ground in one shot of your dough!  

[jeffincltnc]

I’ve had an on again/off again relationship with Nords and have owned every generation of Stage at some point, and currently gig in a band with a Wave 2 over a Stage 3 Compact in a standup rig.

 

I don’t care for the way Nord Stage sounds through headphones or in ear monitors in my own practice room at home, but they always sounds fantastic in a band mix through front of house where it matters.

 

They are lightweight, built very well and have learned to get the most out of their synths and doing my own sampling and they are really intuitive for me live onstage.  Never a menu dive on a gig.

 

I do think that I was getting better synths, EP and clav out of my Kurzweil Forte when I had it but I would take it to gigs and didn’t love the pianos in a live band context through front of house.  I put a lot of time into customizing the sound set for my Forte and I can program my Nords in a ridiculously short period of time.

 

So for build quality, weight, reliability, ease of use and front of house sound, Nord checks the most boxes for me and I have other options for workstations, stage pianos, dual manual organs and software based systems in MainStage if I ever need them.

 

Exception for me is the TP/100 HP keybed which is a non starter for me.

[AnotherScott]

re: those who say that Nords don't sound great to the player, but do sound great to the audience, I suspect they're talking about piano sounds (not organ or synth/sample section sounds), and that it could simply be a function of Nord's actions, where only the Nord Grand and the models with the TP40 have decent piano actions (and people even argue about the TP40). An action which does not provide a good connection between what you expect your fingers to produce and what you actually hear can make you feel it doesn't sound good when you play it, but the audience doesn't experience that disconnect. So I suspect this happens more often with Electro (any) and Stage Compact than it does with Stage 88s or most Nord Pianos/Grand.

[SteinwayB]

I bought a used C1 shortly after it was introduced and it was arguably the best clone at the time.  I still play it (through 145 at home and vent on gigs).  I bought a NP3 a few months ago and quickly retired my CP4 as the White Piano sounds infinitely better than anything on the CP4 although the keybed on the NP3 is far inferior to the CP4.  I sold the CP4 for $500 less than I payed for the NP3 so pretty economical upgrade.  Bottom line, Nords new are expensive, but used not so much.

[cphollis]

I think part of the disappointment I see here in a few posts might be around expectations.  The factory-shipped presets on the Stage (for example) do have a few presets that might be usable "as-is", but most seem to be to illustrate one feature or another.  By comparison, when I sit down on a Yamaha, Roland, etc. it seems it's all about usable presets with familiar sounds.  So the presumption with Nord is "some assembly required" when it comes to presets.  I would suggest this also applies to amplification as well -- if you go over to the Nord forum, you'll people complaining about how they sound, until you find out they're running it through an old guitar amp or similar. 

 

I will say I do like what they've done on the NP5 76 keybed -- I think it's one of their best weighted ones, save for the Nord Grand.

 

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, cphollis said:

I think part of the disappointment I see here in a few posts might be around expectations.  The factory-shipped presets on the Stage (for example) do have a few presets that might be usable "as-is", but most seem to be to illustrate one feature or another.  By comparison, when I sit down on a Yamaha, Roland, etc. it seems it's all about usable presets with familiar sounds.  So the presumption with Nord is "some assembly required" when it comes to presets. 

 

Yes, I think that was a factor for me with the EPs. Outside of the sample programs (which are more like combinations/setups/multis etc.), if you just wanted to call up a Rhodes in the piano section, it always needed processing to sound its best, usually especially EQ. And once you get it the way you want, re-using it as something split/layered with something else is awkward, if not impossible (e.g. because there aren't enough EQs available to necessarily maintain your EP EQ in combination with other sounds which could also use EQ). I That, to me, is the real (and slightly hidden) benefit of the separate EQ options they added with V6 EPs... if one of them gives you an EQ that's close to what you want, you can use that EQ'd EP without tying up a precious main EQ setting. But you are still limited to just a few options. On Yamaha, Roland, etc. usually each EP sound can have its own very adjustable EQ which sticks with it and persists no matter what else you combine it with.

 

So yes, some assembly required, and then some complication if you want to combine that sound with something else.

[AWkeys]

On 11/22/2022 at 10:16 AM, AnotherScott said:

 

Yeah, NS3 wasn't a step up from the 2 in every respect, there were definitely trade-offs.

 

For Pending Load, though, you can address that via an external patch changing device... here's a really nice solution using an iPad:

 

https://www.norduserforum.com/nord-stage-forum-f3/my-touchosc-layout-direct-access-to-75-sounds-bank-a-b-c-t19742.html

 

There are lots of other apps that you could set up to allow you to scroll through your patch names, and then click-to-send the necessary Program Change when ready. You could so it with set management apps that can send MIDI (like Set List Maker, which also runs on smartphones, including Android), and probably in any app that allows you to route MIDI to external devices (Camelot Pro, Keystage, etc.). You may miss having the conveniently located knob, and it would be a nuisance to have to enter names for newly created programs into your app instead of just having them automatically already selectable in the list (MIDI 2.0 !) but at least you get the functionality back.

 

As for the broader topic of what you give up when going from the 2 to the 3, I'll paste what I'd typed elsewhere:

 

-----

 

Advantages of the NS2/EX over the NS3 include pending load, bank buttons, endless encoders with LED rings for some synth and fx parameters (for visual indication of current settings and morph status, and no jumping when you move the controls), latch/KB gate, more flexible MIDI control, and more complete clav EQ emulation.

But the NS3 has the improved more informative display, seamless sound transitions, a more capable synth section, more polyphony, more sample memory, more morphable destinations, 4 definable zones instead of 3, improved Leslie effect, song mode, crossfades, pipe organ, compatibility with newest sample enhancements (piano EQ filters, nsmp3), and on the 73,  real drawbars, an action that I find improved in terms of its piano playability, and the low E (which the 2EX had, but  not the 2).

The Monitor input only goes to the headphones on the 2 while it also goes to the main outs on the 3... I guess which is better depends on what you're trying to do with it, but I think the latter is more useful overall. Reverb comes after the Leslie on the 2, but before the Leslie on the NS3, and again, which is better depends on your goal (sounding more like a Hammond organ that had a reverb in it, vs. duplicating the sound of a room), though an external box will let you get the 2 approach out of the 3, whereas there's no way to get the 3 approach out of the 2.

The current version of the NS3 Compact has holes to support a music stand... earlier NS3 Compacts did not, and I'm not sure, but I don't think the 2 series Compacts had those holes either. I think all the 76 and 88s have had them, though, maybe someone else can confirm. A stand is nice to hold a tablet for charts/lyrics or a patch selection app.

Also, if you want a 76-key hammer action, the NS2 has the better feel, while the NS2EX and NS3 are lighter to carry around.

My personal preference might be the NS3 if I wanted the semi-weighted 73, the NS2 if I wanted a hammer action 76 (maybe adding a Ventilator pedal for better Leslie), and the NS2EX if I wanted the 88 (ditto), but someone else's priorities may be different.

 

 

 

Great walkthru, AnotherScott! Yeah, I'm aware of using outside apps and I might end up doing that, just a PITA. I LOVE setlist mode in the Kronos, but I've had issues controlling the NS3 from the Kronos when changing Panel A/B focus on the Nord while playing live. It changes the focus on the Kronos as well -  didn't have this problem with the NS2. Perhaps there's a workaround, but I haven't found it. Posted about it on the Nord User Forum and didn't get an answer there either.

[harmonizer]

I bought an Electro 3 almost 10 years ago, mainly to fill the gaping hole in organ sounds that I got from my Roland XV (since replaced with a Roland FA-07). I also came to love the EP and Wurli sounds on my Electro 3, especially the Nefertiti EP which was released well after I purchased my Electro 3. I have never played a board that competes with the Organ and EP sounds in my Electro 3 (my FA-07 does not and I use it for different purposes), so I can't offer any opinion on how my Electro 3 compares to those.

[harmonizer]

The box that my Electro 3 came in was much better suited for making a homemade solar eclipse viewer, than anything I ever got from Roland.

[allan_evett]

5 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

 

 

So yes, some assembly required...

Definitely. Most of the sounds I use live have involved extensive edits of presets, at the very least.  Lots of 'from scratch' material in there too - especially the Programs with layers/splits.  Have gotten quite a bit of help and inspiration from the Nord forums, also from a couple posts/comments here.  The factory piano Programs ranged from uninspiring to  just-usable when I first picked up the Stage 3, 76.  But through trial and error I was able to dial-in a couple of very playable grands within the first year.  My 'lightbulb' moment came when considering what types of other-brand digital piano tones had always felt right-on for me, yet also worked capably in a live mix (of course with some FOH  room tweaking and in the monitor mix). 

Though I've tended to favor Yamaha for core samples, what Roland does with EQ and other DSP mojo is magic, to my ears. So applying some of that to various Nord piano samples has worked well - even within the relatively limited DSP options on the Stage 3. The piano section's tone options help a lot, along with  master EQ tweaks. For single keyboard gigs and light setups, having a strong, playable piano sound in a compact 76 is awesome; the Stage 3 is a top-notch 'Swiss Army tool' axe. Though for more involved gigs with piano I still like to use a dedicated Yamaha or Roland 88, when doable.

[cphollis]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

So yes, some assembly required, and then some complication if you want to combine that sound with something else.

Yes.  I can't tell you how many times I've been frustrated that I can't have an independent EQ/FX chain for each engine, which can result in hard choices and compromises.  My pet peeve is that I frequently want a chorus on both my EP and my synth.  Too bad, choose one, or put them on separate panels.  Also, like you said, I'd love to be able to save things at the "engine" level for pianos/organs although it's thankfully there for the (more complex) synth engine.

[Jim Alfredson]

When Nord first made their name among players, it was because they were the only company making a bread and butter board with realistic EPs, acoustic pianos, and organ. When the first Electro came out, the other manufacturers’ idea of an electric piano sound was still the horrendous DX7 FM sound. Nord was the first to have good and realistic Rhodes and Wurlitzer sounds. They were easy to use and had the most commonly needed sounds.

 

Now I think there are much better options that are less expensive. The Kurzweil PC4 is one such board. Sure, the organ isn’t as good but you could either use the multiple outputs to send it to a Ventilator or just use B-3X on a laptop or iPad. Honestly, the custom Weiser programmed organs are pretty damn good for anything other than straight up jazz organ trio stuff. The pianos are great, the EPs are great, the Clavs are great, and it has way more sample memory, polyphony, multitimbrality, and flexibility than anything Nord offers. Of course with that power comes more complexity in terms of the interface and that might turn some people off. But overall it’s a much more frugal investment, imo.

[jejefunkyman]

Finally someone who shares my view on the horrendous DX7 FM sound 🤣

[Stefan011]

5 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Of course with that power comes more complexity in terms of the interface and that might turn some people off. But overall it’s a much more frugal investment, imo.

This! As a longtime Kurzweil and Nord user I rate Nord APs better, but Kurzweil has a beautiful sound overall. The interface though...

 

For somebody who does not need to deal with complex setups, Nords have only two major downsides (both mentioned ealier): the price and Fatar TP 100.  If not for the TP 100 I would still own Electro HP. 

[CyberGene]

If they switch to TP110 and improve their EP-s, they will be much more desirable for me personally. 

[bjosko]

38 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

If they switch to TP110 and improve their EP-s, they will be much more desirable for me personally. 

Totally agree, and if they could simplify the connection so we could use an iPad or tablet to transfer and arrange sound, programs and samples, it would be a big plus. The only thing I need my old MacBook for is when I am doing this.

[counterpoint]

7 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

When Nord first made their name among players, it was because they were the only company making a bread and butter board with realistic EPs, acoustic pianos, and organ. When the first Electro came out, the other manufacturers’ idea of an electric piano sound was still the horrendous DX7 FM sound. Nord was the first to have good and realistic Rhodes and Wurlitzer sounds. They were easy to use and had the most commonly needed sounds.  Now I think there are much better options that are less expensive.

Jim...you hit the nail on the head.  Kudos to Clavia for innovations that changed the standard of and set a new direction for what a great keyboard could and should be. That earned them, for a long time, "reserve status" (like the US Dollar) hence being able to charge a premium price for their product.  I'm guessing they are struggling with where to go next as their competitors have largely matched their sound quality and taken things to a higher level with innovations like integrated USB Audio, more flexible effects routings, no splits limitations, etc.  They seem to be stubbornly hanging on to the belief that they make the rules and set the standards but, in reality, they are now playing catch-up.  Perhaps they still have a trick or two up their sleeve though.  Has to be an E7 coming out...will we see all these things in it...and maybe an innovation or two that pushes them back in front?  For me...I went from an E2 to an E4...and when it was time for me to upgrade from there a couple years ago, the YC61 was a much better (and less expensive) choice than the E6 for my needs.

[stoken6]

8 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Nord was the first to have good and realistic Rhodes and Wurlitzer sounds. They were easy to use and had the most commonly needed sounds.

+1 @Jim Alfredson and @counterpoint. Nord's influence on the rest of the industry is clear to see. Without the Electro, there would be no Yamaha YC61, and without the Stage, no Hammond SK Pro. Roland's VR09/VR730 and Korg's Vox Continental owe a debt also.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[allan_evett]

10 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

When Nord first made their name among players, it was because they were the only company making a bread and butter board with realistic EPs, acoustic pianos, and organ. When the first Electro came out, the other manufacturers’ idea of an electric piano sound was still the horrendous DX7 FM sound. Nord was the first to have good and realistic Rhodes and Wurlitzer sounds. They were easy to use and had the most commonly needed sounds.

 

Now I think there are much better options that are less expensive. The Kurzweil PC4 is one such board. Sure, the organ isn’t as good but you could either use the multiple outputs to send it to a Ventilator or just use B-3X on a laptop or iPad. Honestly, the custom Weiser programmed organs are pretty damn good for anything other than straight up jazz organ trio stuff. The pianos are great, the EPs are great, the Clavs are great, and it has way more sample memory, polyphony, multitimbrality, and flexibility than anything Nord offers. Of course with that power comes more complexity in terms of the interface and that might turn some people off. But overall it’s a much more frugal investment, imo.

Good points, Jim.  The strongest appeal of the Stage 3 was having the Lead A1 VA and C2D organ in an all-in-one 'board.  I've made the APs and EPs work for me, and especially like the Wurli tones.  I purchased my Stage 3, 76 in late 2017. If it was irreparably damaged, I would likely pick up a PC4 as a replacement. I gigged with a PC3 for several years (and a Forte 7 in 2015), but find the PC4 more appealing now.  Straight up jazz organ is not really in my wheelhouse, so the KB3 organs would work fine.  I also have B-3X on my iPad, when that Hammond tone is a must.

[Adan]

After all this time it's still the case that no one does Nord as well as Nord.  Covering the spectrum of most-used sounds combined with knobby, buttony, accessible, intuitive controls, in a portable package.  Nord's high price was more justifiable when they were the only one doing it.  Now you have other choices like the Yamaha YC, which doesn't go Full Nord but gets close enough for some people.

 

These days I'm into the Nord Piano 73.  Great APs that with one button push sounds good in mono, top notch finger to ear connection, useable (if uninspiring) EPs, in a very giggable package.

[CyberGene]

49 minutes ago, Adan said:

top notch finger to ear connection

That’s funny. I found Nord Piano 5 having one of the worst touch-sound mapping, feeling not like a piano at all and I would go as far as to say I can’t think of a worse digital piano in that regard, even worse than Casio entry-level pianos. Apparently it’s a matter of taste.  I love their samples when listening to demos though. But I can’t connect to the sound as a player.