Do you think it’s important to practice technique on an acoustic piano?

[ElmerJFudd]

When I was a kid in the 70s the affordable home pianos that were desirable for practice were sohmer, kimball, baldwin, everett, a few others.  The trick will be finding one that doesn’t need new strings, a new tuning block, new felts, hammers repaired, etc.  So I’d say the younger the better, unless it’s been worked on already. That Kimball from the 90s you mentioned is worth a good look.  
 

Since you’re not in a rush I would suggest a little savings account for a second hand Yamaha U1 in good condition or restored.  They also have a b1, b2 and b3 made in Indonesia. As well as an M560 and P22D.  If you get into a shop - sit down at these tiers and compare.   The U1 is really the entry point of their more professional instruments.  I see them all the time on Facebook marketplace for anywhere from $2500-5000.   A lot in the $4k area.  
 

The taller the instrument the bigger the harp.  Largest to smallest is a professional upright, studio upright, console and spinet.  

[Montunoman 2]

1 hour ago, NewImprov said:

 But I really feel like going back and practicing seriously on an acoustic has improved my technique on every keyboard.

This what my teacher has been telling me. According to him even if I practice on a console, my touch/ technique and musicality will improve no matter what kind of keyboard I perform ( even synth) 

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, Montunoman 2 said:

My thoughts exactly. My teacher seems to think I’ll be able to find something decent in my budget though. 
There so many used pianos out there, but I live the Dallas Fort Worth metroplex , a huge spread out area , so it’s hard  to set up appointments and drive all over the area to check used pianos. No hurry though, I’m quite happy with my Kawia ES 110, and Korg Havian .  I do have access to acoustics at the community college I’m taking my piano lessons at, but it’s so much more practical to practice at home…. But anyways, I’m not in a hurry to buy a piano, I figure it will take awhile …. 
 

 

So far I’m considering the following;

 

Baldwin Acrosonic from the 50’s  $400

Baldwin Hamilton 1989 $900

Kimball La Petite  from the 90’s  $1000

Palatino   ( console ) 2013 $500

 

I’ve just seen pictures, they look very clean. I’ll be trying set up appoints to play them. Just wondering if anybody here has  played on any of those. 
 

 

 

This may sound insane but I've seen some decent looking pianos in thrift stores for very low prices ($200).

I'm not saying you should buy one. If you live near some thrift stores it might be worth your while to take a look every so often and see what they have.

I've never seen a baby grand or a grand though, mostly spinets and some uprights.

 

Also keep an eye on craigslist, there was an ad 25 miles south of here for a maintained baby grand - the owner was moving and had it available for free. It was around for a couple of weeks before it disappeared.

 

Stuff does happen that may make no sense at all. 

[Al Quinn]

11 hours ago, Montunoman 2 said:

So far I’m considering the following;

 

Baldwin Acrosonic from the 50’s  $400

Baldwin Hamilton 1989 $900

Kimball La Petite  from the 90’s  $1000

Palatino   ( console ) 2013 $500

 

I’ve just seen pictures, they look very clean. I’ll be trying set up appoints to play them. Just wondering if anybody here has  played on any of those. 
 

 

 

I learned piano on a Baldwin Acrosonic. I bought it used in ‘78 and it was probably 20 or 30 years old at that time. The action was so light that I struggled when I had to play a grand piano on gigs. I didn’t develop the necessary finger strength or touch. I had trouble with pain in my hands back then.
 

When I bought the Yamaha C3 in ‘99 my hand pain gradually went away and I’ve been fine since. I’ve played other uprights with very light actions and don’t think they’re a good choice for serious practicing. On the other hand, I played a Yamaha upright at a jam session a few years ago and it was wonderful in every way.

[zephonic]

15 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

 The action was so light that I struggled when I had to play a grand piano on gigs. I didn’t develop the necessary finger strength or touch. I had trouble with pain in my hands back then.

 

My parents' Bechstein grand also had a very light action, something I did not know until I got to conservatory and the pianos there were all way heavier than what I had been used to.

[re Pete]

People don't live forever or they may go to a nursing home. Those are times you can get a deal. Know what to look for or get a tech.

[Montunoman 2]

I’m just a school teacher and part time musician putting kids and myself though college, so I don’t know if I could save much more…. 
I used to have a Wurlitzer console  in my house to practice on but now I’m perfectly happy with my Kawai ES110  

and Korg Havian. My teacher is confident practicing on an acoustic ( even  an upright console) will do wonders for me. He is very young but extremely “old school” . All he does is gig and teach so he doesn’t make much money… I’ve been to house which rents with 4 other guys, and the tiny living room is filled with two old grand pianos that are beat up, but in tune. When he plays out with a digital, he uses a Casio digital piano and a old Roland amp. While most folks here would not  be impressed with his gear, I think his playing would impress anyone here,  So while I’m not totally convinced with why he thinks practicing on a modest acoustic would improve my playing, I do fell like I should give  his advice some careful consideration. I’ll pick his brain a bit more after the Thanks Giving Break . 
 

Back to current choices, I decided against the Baldwin Acrosonic, I tried  it and it sounded good enough for home practice but as Al Quin pointed out, the action is very light, I don’t any advantage at all over my digital piano… 

 

Hope to see the Palatino soon (some reviewers say it is very comparable to the Yamaha U) 

‘The Baldwin Hamilton seems like a classic choice of yesteryear hopefully I can one that still plays well. 
 

Here’s the Kimball La  Petite.  It seems like pianists on the internet  either love or hate them. Sure is cute though! The one I’m looking at is newer, I think. Not a scratch on it at least in the pictures.. 
 

 

 

[Montunoman 2]

[Montunoman 2]

I didn’t mention, that my Mexican wife complicates this matter, since the piano would have go in the living room, so any piano would have match with her aesthetic sensibilities.  The 3 B’s in Spanish “ bueno, bonito, y barato”  - Good quality, pretty, and cheap.  Maybe my only hope is to find a wealthy widow who wants  give away her lightly used grand piano! 
 

 

[Outkaster]

I think at the turn of the 20th century I read somewhere that there were over 300 piano manufacturers in the US.  There was even a company that made uprights for Sears under a different name.  My dad had one and it was built like a tank.  The problem is so many were made and at a time there was one in most homes.  There is a ton of inventory out there.  I heard the Philadelphia school district has a warehouse full of old pianos.  Even the movers I use have people calling them to hold old pianos away.  We found a Steinway upright like that but I didn’t have room for it.  You should able to get something decent. As already stated, the Yamaha U1 or U3

[Joe Muscara]

16 hours ago, Montunoman 2 said:

I live the Dallas Fort Worth metroplex , a huge spread out area , so it’s hard  to set up appointments and drive all over the area to check used pianos.

This is where I traveled to around Houston to find my piano. The marker near Conroe is where I ended up finding my Kawai. I live pretty much in town so most of those trips were quite a drive for me.

 

Looking for used takes persistence. Or in my case, stubbornness. I gave up a few times, but then opened up Craigslist again and found more candidates.

[Montunoman 2]

22 minutes ago, Joe Muscara said:

This is where I traveled to around Houston to find my piano. The marker near Conroe is where I ended up finding my Kawai. I live pretty much in town so most of those trips were quite a drive for me.

 

Looking for used takes persistence. Or in my case, stubbornness. I gave up a few times, but then opened up Craigslist again and found more candidates.

Glad you found a good piano, Joe. How’s it working for you?  Do practice on it a lot? 
 

One worry I have is that I am probably the worlds most annoying practitioner of piano! 
I practice licks in all 12 keys with the metronome on, mess up start start again…, 

i do classical passages so slow that they’re unrecognizable. Who wants to here that sh*t?!? It’s better for everyone  at home with my head phones on! Luckily my neighbors are cows, as I live outside of a cattle ranch. I hope those cows like bebop licks and very slow Bach! 

[Joe Muscara]

4 hours ago, Montunoman 2 said:

Glad you found a good piano, Joe. How’s it working for you?  Do practice on it a lot? 

Every frakking day. Not that I'm getting any better from it.  In a way, I hate that I have all this other great gear that I don't play nearly as much, but grand piano was always going to be my first instrument.

 

4 hours ago, Montunoman 2 said:

One worry I have is that I am probably the worlds most annoying practitioner of piano! 
I practice licks in all 12 keys with the metronome on, mess up start start again…, 

i do classical passages so slow that they’re unrecognizable. Who wants to here that sh*t?!? It’s better for everyone  at home with my head phones on! Luckily my neighbors are cows, as I live outside of a cattle ranch. I hope those cows like bebop licks and very slow Bach! 

You know what Wynton Marsalis says? "You're practicing too fast." Slow and annoying is good for you. Ask any piano player's wife. People will say to them, "it must be so nice living with a piano player." They'll reply, "it's not that great. They keep playing the same three notes over and over again. Then another three…"

 

This is how we get better. Slow, repetitive practice of little bits.

[ElmerJFudd]

17 minutes ago, Joe Muscara said:

Every frakking day. Not that I'm getting any better from it.  In a way, I hate that I have all this other great gear that I don't play nearly as much, but grand piano was always going to be my first instrument.

 

You know what Wynton Marsalis says? "You're practicing too fast." Slow and annoying is good for you. Ask any piano player's wife. People will say to them, "it must be so nice living with a piano player." They'll reply, "it's not that great. They keep playing the same three notes over and over again. Then another three…"

 

This is how we get better. Slow, repetitive practice of little bits.

My teacher in “collage” used to call it building the links in the chain. If you’re going to fail  someplace along the path of that chain it will likely be at the link you weren’t disciplined enough to perfect.  

[cphollis]

I live in an area with many retirees.  It is *heartbreaking* to see better uprights and lesser grands being offered for next-to-nothing on FB and CL, with many certainly getting tossed.  I think it gets down to people (a) having no space, (b) moving and tuning ain't cheap, and (c) limited interest.  In all fairness, digital boards are cheap, portable and never need tuning.

[Montunoman 2]

How much are tunings these days? 

[Radagast]

There’s a big difference between the action on an upright acoustic piano and an acoustic grand piano.  A grand’s action lends itself better to practice of various techniques.

[Docbop]

Where I live good acoustic pianos are either over priced or free.    Over priced by some that think anything old is worth a lot of money.  Then those that just don't play anymore, need the room, or planning to move those can be free or great deals.   All about scanning CL and waiting. 

[jazzpiano88]

11 minutes ago, Montunoman 2 said:

How much are tunings these days? 

I just paid $130 Midwest US.  Seems to be standard +/- ~$25

[jerrythek]

More like $200 here on Long Island. 
 

2 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

I just paid $130 Midwest US.  Seems to be standard +/- ~$25

 

[jazzpiano88]

7 minutes ago, Radagast said:

There’s a big difference between the action on an upright acoustic piano and an acoustic grand piano.  A grand’s action lends itself better to practice of various techniques.

 

A bit of digression, but...

To this day, my mind is blown whenever I sit down to play my grand.   It boggles the mind how good it sounds in my house as it replicates the wonderful tone I remember from countless listenings to Piano Jazz.    I feel lucky to have the space for it.  For a long time, I could only experience that sound in institutions and facilities and now it's available 24/7 (more or less )  It's the ultimate hand-eye-ear connectedness!   I could play Kenny Barron chords alone up and down all day and I'd be happy.  

[Al Quinn]

I paid $150 to have my piano tuned yesterday on Long Island, NY.

 

Just finished practicing for almost two hours on my freshly tuned Yamaha C3. As others have said there’s nothing like practicing on a real grand piano. My wife has never minded my practice, which I don’t understand. I feel very fortunate.
 

My electric gear sits in a closet until the next gig.

[Al Quinn]

Yeah it can get pricey maintaining an acoustic piano properly. In the past year I’ve had it regulated, voiced, and had the hammers filed. Yesterday’s tuning including some touch up voicing that was needed on quite a few notes. I’m happy with the price and the work.
 

The guy I was using previously tacked on a travel fee for the first time last visit. That motivated me to find someone who doesn’t have to travel as far. I can’t see paying someone to drive.

[ElmerJFudd]

 

[cphollis]

My piano tunings are $125 + tip (I tip for good work, and it's good work he does).  I have to schedule many weeks in advance.  My grand seems to need it once per year, but it sits in a very controlled environment.

[Outkaster]

Mines a buddy of mine so he hooks me up, we were in the same band,

[octa]

If you're relatively broke like me, a friend uses this app to tune his U1: https://www.tunelab-world.com

Android version is free w/ ads every 14 notes. 

 

Tools are not expensive, and maybe hire someone to tune it and learn from them the first time. 

 

 

[Shamanzarek]

Much of this discussion has focused on key action. Key response can vary so much from piano to piano whether digital or acoustic and then is subject to what a particular player prefers. Probably a more serious shortcoming of most digital pianos is the damper pedal response. On a digital piano there is less sustain time with the damper pedal down. You could just hold the damper pedal down through a whole piece and it probably won't sound too bad. On an acoustic piano if you were to hold the damper pedal down you will likely get a dissonant build up of notes overlapping through several chord changes. Acoustic piano damping is less forgiving than a digital and requires developing more precise pedaling technique. Some digital pianos do support half-pedaling but still have a shorter maximum sustain time than an acoustic.

[cp-the-nerd]

Owning and maintaining an acoustic piano isn't always realistic, and personally I don't like the sound of most upright pianos so there would be multiple hurdles in that situation. For what it's worth, I actually did grow up with some sort of well-worn spinet piano similar to Nord's Bambino Upright sample in tone which I liked quite a bit.

I think access to a good weighted keybed does most of the job there, creating a sense of percussion that a synth action just can't pull off. It's one of the reasons I kept my SV-1 88-key after getting my Electro 6D: it's a joy to play the hammer action and have a full 88-key spread. I also still like many of the analog-invoking warm sounds it produces.

I highly recommend owning something with hammer action, but not exclusively. Variety is a wonderful thing for the same reason I recommend against any sort of obsessive brand loyalty in keyboards. 

[ElmerJFudd]

A Yamaha U1 or Kawai K3 or K300 are where I’d start my hunt.  A Yamaha b3 isn’t bad.  There is a noticeable tonal difference compared to the U1 due to some of the cut corners - but it retails for $3-4k less than a new U1.  I’d rather scour the region for the tier up second hand.