88 note keyboard controller for Mainstage

[aronnelson]

I thought about the MODX7. But it's pretty big itself depth-wise. Will have to think about this.... Thanks!

[kaptainkeys]

What about the Novation (or any other controller that you like) in combination with an iPad running a setlist maker app that sends Bank LSB and MSB commands?  It is not that much different (except weight-wise) than something like the Kronos' Setlist mode or the Live Set function on the Montage/MODX, and would definitely keep weight down.  Another plus is that you could also use the iPad for charts and sheet music.

[aronnelson]

Yes. I am either going to go controller with Mac mini and my app unrealBook or get something to replace the PX-5S. It would be nice to be able to send out any program change on the fly.

 

Ideally a keyboard that has decent sounds on board so I can still use it for piano gigs. Probably nothing beats the PX-5S.

 

thanks

[Iconoclast]

I've used the SL88 grand with the SL mixface for the exact same thing and it works great except it's over your weight limit. However the SL88 STUDIO weighs in at 30.2 lbs and has the same keybed as the Arturia Keylab 88 (which to many is a drawback).

The Mixface is easy to use and very programmable, it actually has 2 "pages" so probably more buttons and faders than you will use.

The Magnetic aspect of this is really cool. I can mount my mixface, computer and music stand if I wish, in various configurations using their Magnetic rail system. Everything is very secure and compact.

[aronnelson]

How do you switch patches on this? I don't know how I would get around the lack of bank and program buttons with the new controllers. I need to switch patches quickly. I'm almost giving up already..... I guess I could get another PX-5S which would work - mine is kind of falling apart. Even a 10 key would be better than a scrolling knob or hunting through menus.

[aronnelson]

Another possibility is the PC4se. I used to have a PC3 and I liked it. 

[PianoMan51]

I gigged with Mainstage for about five years. Eventually dropped it because all my gigs were acoustic piano only.

 

One lesson I learned the hard way… (when my complicated, well-featured controller needed to be replaced)

 

Do all the work inside Mainstage. All the splits. All the velocity curves. Etc. Just use your board for the keybed.

 

So when you need to use a different board you can move on without redesigning the whole damn thing. 
 

Regarding knobs and sliders. Whether part of your main board or a separate unit, make sure that you can program the CC numbers to match your Mainstage expectations. Otherwise, if you program Mainstage and your VSTs to match the controller, then you’ll have to reprogram everything when you change the controller. 

[tfort]

Rumors were pretty clear a few years back that Casio was working on an update to the PX-5S, Mike Martin even semi-confirmed it. 
 

I don’t think anything that Casio has come out with recently would have obviated that replacement, so I assume it got delayed due to Covid-related chip shortages.  I hope it wouldn’t have been cancelled altogether?

 

In your situation I’d be tempted to muddle through and wait for NAMM.
 

I also hope that Studiologic will update its controllers eventually and deliver a product close to what you’re talking about. I’m hoping that with MIDI 2.0 we’ll see some new stuff come out that might have been held back while the standard was being finalized. The standard even just got changed again, so maybe that means something. 

[aronnelson]

Good point. OK I will wait through NAMM but it's a long wait since it's in April now. The more I think about it, the PC4se looks good but I guess I will wait it out. The PX-5S is great but I think the PC4se is an upgrade with the added sounds. Will see.

[tfort]

Aron-

 

Just noticed that Mike Martin dropped a more recent hint about a PX-5 successor. 
 

In September he mentioned in the Casio Music Forums that the PX-S6000 would be a good platform on which to base a PX-5S successor.

 

Seems like it’ll be coming along fairly soon, then. About the only thing he didn’t do was use a wink emoji…

 

https://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/topic/13846-any-px-5s-successor-yet-in-2018/&do=findComment&comment=82311

 

If you happen to be near any shops that have the new Privias, you might want to see how they feel to you- I believe they all share the same action. 
 

Quick aside- is Unrealbook going to keep getting updates? It lost its primary advantage for me when ForScore added the ability to import indices, but I’ve still got a soft spot in my heart for it. I’d go back if it started using MusicXML as its file format. And it could take the lead again if it was one of the first apps to support MusicXML’s successor, MNX. 
https://www.w3.org/community/music-notation/ 

 

Apropos of nothing, my first MIDI interface was from Opcode.

[Iconoclast]

On 11/23/2022 at 2:20 AM, aronnelson said:

How do you switch patches on this? I don't know how I would get around the lack of bank and program buttons with the new controllers. I need to switch patches quickly. I'm almost giving up already..... I guess I could get another PX-5S which would work - mine is kind of falling apart. Even a 10 key would be better than a scrolling knob or hunting through menus.

I build a Setlist in main stage and I cut and paste aliases from my main patch list into the set list and then I advance or decrement through the Setlist via a foot pedal. If we stick to the Setlist I never need to touch the computer. But if we flex the Setlist I can either search mainstage by song title or just go to my main patch list which only has about 10 patches, and then just foot pedal my way through that very quickly. Rarely I will reach out to the computer and select a patch by hand but that is more the exception than the norm.

 

I made this YouTube for another purpose so it probably has more info than you want. It was to explain to somebody else the very basics of how I ran a main stage rig but it might answer some of the questions for you.

 

 

[Fleer]

On 11/23/2022 at 2:24 PM, PianoMan51 said:

I gigged with Mainstage for about five years. Eventually dropped it because all my gigs were acoustic piano only.

 

One lesson I learned the hard way… (when my complicated, well-featured controller needed to be replaced)

 

Do all the work inside Mainstage. All the splits. All the velocity curves. Etc. Just use your board for the keybed.

 

So when you need to use a different board you can move on without redesigning the whole damn thing. 
 

Regarding knobs and sliders. Whether part of your main board or a separate unit, make sure that you can program the CC numbers to match your Mainstage expectations. Otherwise, if you program Mainstage and your VSTs to match the controller, then you’ll have to reprogram everything when you change the controller. 

Same thoughts here. RD88 with MainStage (and Keyscape plus Pianoteq). Made for each other. 

[LarsHarner2]

I'm using connected to my Macbook Pro the Arturia MKII 61 - I really like it quite a bit for recording, sounds etc.. - I liked the action for the 88 key version.

- I was calling around yesterday trying to get a discount on the Numa Compact 2- reason being even though my Yamaha P125 is light at 24 pounds or so I might want something even lighter with a little more variety of sounds. 

[aronnelson]

>Quick aside- is Unrealbook going to keep getting updates 

 

I've been updating it all the time. I'm on my 1545 beta update.

I do agree that supporting something like XML would be great. It's just finding the time to do something like this.

If there as a library, that would be easier but it would jack up the cost since I need to fund the library. Just a simple PDF library can be upwards of $5000.

 

 

[aronnelson]

I noticed that my Mac mini uses a lot more memory than the Intel version. I'm not sure if a 16G Mac mini can be a substitute for a dedicated synth. I guess with unrealBook connected via bluetooth MIDI, patch changes are so fast, I can rip though songs and only a few songs have a problems switching between patches fast enough. 

Right now, I guess my PX-5S is good enough for the gigs I will use MainStage for. I will wait for NAMM.

[aronnelson]

I finally got to try a TP100 - the Studiologic SL73 studio. My first reaction is that the action is fine. It's on the heavier side but I could still play fast and play trills etc...

So I think that most of the people saying it's slow and too heavy don't play much piano. I expected something a lot worse. 

But the more I think about it, even though I didn't like the RD-88 piano, I would just be using it as a controller and the knobs are ok, not the best, but I could make do with it. I think it is a better overall controller due to having favorites. The Studiologic program select is not as good.

If I really had to have faders, I can use my Korg NanoKontrol.

 

[stoken6]

2 hours ago, aronnelson said:

I think that most of the people saying it's slow and too heavy don't play much piano

100% disagree. That action is unlike any piano I've ever played (and I've played quite a few). 

 

But hey, if it works for you...

 

Cheers, Mike.

[aronnelson]

Yes, it's not like a piano, but piano players can play on it and you can do trills and play quickly on it. Did you find it super slow for you?

I guess all I am saying is that it doesn't seem to deserve the bad rap it seems to get.

[stoken6]

4 hours ago, aronnelson said:

Yes, it's not like a piano, but piano players can play on it and you can do trills and play quickly on it. Did you find it super slow for you?

I guess all I am saying is that it doesn't seem to deserve the bad rap it seems to get.

I found it like playing through a sponge. An irregular sponge, with varying consistency. If that doesn't deserve a bad rap, I don't know what does. (But I know opinions are subjective - many hate Fatar's TP40 action, which I'm happy with). 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[CyberGene]

On 1/17/2023 at 10:41 AM, aronnelson said:

I finally got to try a TP100 - the Studiologic SL73 studio. My first reaction is that the action is fine. It's on the heavier side but I could still play fast and play trills etc...

So I think that most of the people saying it's slow and too heavy don't play much piano.

 

I owned the SL73 and I play mostly piano, I compared it side by side to my Yamaha AvantGrand N1X with real acoustic grand piano action. The SL73 is not just overly heavy, it's also very sluggish. I'm sure many people won't have problems with it but to me it's one of the worst digital piano actions I've owned.

[octa]

Briefly compared the 2 actions on stage recently. (NP5 73 and NS3 76 hp) Really didn’t get along with 76 hp, but maybe with more time I’d hopefully adapt to it. The initial contact reminded me of some not so playable weighted 88 m audio I had some years ago. 

[EricBarker]

I just don't understand why 9 sliders for any MIDI controller over 49keys isn't LAW these days. You literally can't play organ without 9 sliders. Knocking out an entire instrument that makes up a good percentage of about 40 years of rock/jazz/RnB is just idiocy. Sliders are cheap. If the board doesn't have 9 sliders, I'm not even gonna consider it. Too many times I've thought, "shoot, I'd love to play B3 now, but I can't, no drawbars".

Small simpler controllers for doing synth stuff, or Seaboards, fine, I don't expect it. But if it's got at least 61 keys, you have no excuse not having 9 sliders.

[AnotherScott]

19 minutes ago, EricBarker said:

I just don't understand why 9 sliders for any MIDI controller over 49keys isn't LAW these days. You literally can't play organ without 9 sliders.

Sure you can! I've played plenty of organ on gigs without having 9 sliders. Heck, a lot of keyboard players wouldn't know what to do with the drawbars anyway... a couple of organ presets and they're good. Which is no knock on them, people have different backgrounds and different needs. I like having drawbars, but I haven't had them on most gigs. The number of boards-with-sounds that have 9 sliders is a minority, too. Not counting boards that are specifically organ oriented you won't find 9 sliders on any Korg except OASYS/Kronos, on any Roland except the current Fantom, and not on any Yamaha. 

 

But I would say that any 49+ controller that doesn't have a hammer action but has at least 8 sliders should have 9. ;-) And of course, they need to work in "reverse" too...

[drawback]

2 hours ago, EricBarker said:

I just don't understand why 9 sliders for any MIDI controller over 49keys isn't LAW these days. You literally can't play organ without 9 sliders. Knocking out an entire instrument that makes up a good percentage of about 40 years of rock/jazz/RnB is just idiocy. Sliders are cheap. If the board doesn't have 9 sliders, I'm not even gonna consider it. Too many times I've thought, "shoot, I'd love to play B3 now, but I can't, no drawbars".

Small simpler controllers for doing synth stuff, or Seaboards, fine, I don't expect it. But if it's got at least 61 keys, you have no excuse not having 9 sliders.

The 9th Hammond drawbar would be non operative if you turn on percussion anyway. And for the times you’d play without percussion you could program the 9th to a knob. Or run both 8 & 9 from the 8th slider. PITA, but doable. Worse, if not impossible, is no expression pedal. Yeah, there’s a USB MIDI pedal but from what I understand of it, that uses up the USB, and if the controller doesn’t have DIN MIDI, you’re screwed.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, drawback said:

Worse, if not impossible, is no expression pedal. Yeah, there’s a USB MIDI pedal but from what I understand of it, that uses up the USB, and if the controller doesn’t have DIN MIDI, you’re screwed.

I think the USB pedals go into the device you're controlling (i.e. the computer), not into the keyboard.

[EricBarker]

I actually did a traveling gig a month ago, using an Alesis Vortex Keytar as an organ (with VB3ii, since I already have a Mojo, and know the controls). I left off the 9th drawbar for Perc tones, and then made a few non-percussion presets. So yeah, 8 can work in pinch for rock stuff, since you're mostly hammering away. For years I worked with organ presets, but since I've really connected with the drawbars, there's no turning back. I could probably make it work, but it just doesn't feel right.

[drawback]

12 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I think the USB pedals go into the device you're controlling (i.e. the computer), not into the keyboard.

I thought that might be the case. Even so, it’s an extra cost and could mean adding a hub as well. 

[pinkfloydcramer]

Any reason why the Yamaha CP73 wouldn’t work for a controller? It has MIDI functionality similar to that of the YC73 (AFAIK), similar key bed, cheaper. 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, pinkfloydcramer said:

Any reason why the Yamaha CP73 wouldn’t work for a controller? It has MIDI functionality similar to that of the YC73 (AFAIK), similar key bed, cheaper. 

I believe the two boards have identical implementations of the 4 external MIDI zones. YC73 might have an advantage in having the 9 drawbars that can send MIDI CC.

[aronnelson]

On 1/17/2023 at 11:06 PM, stoken6 said:

I found it like playing through a sponge. An irregular sponge, with varying consistency. If that doesn't deserve a bad rap, I don't know what does. (But I know opinions are subjective - many hate Fatar's TP40 action, which I'm happy with). 

 

Cheers, Mike.

Thanks Mike. Well, I'm not going to end up choosing it, but when I asked that piano player how the action was, he said it was really good and he said "I love Fatar keybeds". hahahaha

 

I know what you mean, a long time ago I played a Kurzweil keyboard that was heavy AND slow. I felt restricted!

OK maybe it does deserve a bad rep!