88 note keyboard controller for Mainstage

[aronnelson]

Hey guys,

 

I want to have a live rig for MainStage using an 88 (or 73) note controller. But here are the features I need:

 

1: Lightweight. Around 30 pounds or lighter.

2: Has faders.

3: Has decent action. Better than a Korg Kross 1. Ideally weighted and decent/fast action - like a Yamaha CP series or Casio PX-5S.

4: Can send program changes to MainStage - ideally with program change buttons - would be great if has banks and program select.

5: Compact - not super bulky.

6: Needs some sort of pitch bend/mod.

 

I want to use MainStage headless without having to go through the UI. Basically I want to be able to switch patches and play it like any other sound module. Switch patches, use the faders etc...

 

I've been looking and it's tough. The Arturia Keylab 88 Mk2, is limited sending program changes and the keybed is slow.

Same with Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol 88. Well all Fatar TP100LR seem to be slow and have problems.

Studiologic fixed this with Numa X piano, but no faders. If this had faders it would be perfect!

 

So after giving up on TP100LR based controller, I am left with lightweight keybeds.

 

So I am currently deciding on the Numa Compact 2x. BUT there's only a rotary dial for selecting patches. And I am not sure if the board can receive MIDI program changes to select the patches and also send program changes to MainStage via USB.

 

Have I missed a keyboard that has good action, is lightweight and has faders? Yes, I know about the PX-5S - I have one and it's perfect except it is very fragile. I want to get something a little more robust for gigging.

 

Any help appreciated!

 

Aron

 

[AnotherScott]

10 minutes ago, aronnelson said:

1: Lightweight. Around 30 pounds or lighter.

... 

currently deciding on the Numa Compact 2x.

...

I know about the PX-5S - I have one and it's perfect except it is very fragile. I want to get something a little more robust for gigging.

 

I've never thought of the PX-5S as particularly fragile, and the Numa Compact 2X you mentioned is similarly a plastic chassis board with an external power supply (but with a lesser action, and you mentioned, scroll wheel rather than buttons for calling up your sounds).

 

Maybe a Yamaha YC73? Action is okay, now that the software lets you better tweak the velocity curves. Deeper than the boards you've mentioned.

 

Fantom-08 is a little on the heavier/bulkier side, but maybe still within your limits... and I'm not really a fan of its action, from the little time I spent on it, but that's subjective... and notably it does have specific Mainstage integration. Back to a plastic chassis and external power supply, though,

 

Kurzweil PC4 could be a possibility. 9 sliders and very versatile in its MIDI functionalities. Action again is subjective, but I think its competitive with PX5S, better in some ways, lesser in others, Again, plastic chassis and external power supply. And somewhat deep again. Though since you are willing to consider semi-weighted actions, I think the PC4-7 feels better than the Numa Compact 2X, and so could be another option if you want to get the weight way down.

 

 

[Stokely]

I've never tried one but the Numa Compact 2x mentioned does check a lot of boxes.  Though I personally wish it wasn't 88, but 73/76.  Built-in interface, backup sounds in a pinch, decent number of controls.  I'm not sure about the action, I thought for a while it was the Fatar tp9 from the Virus/pc361/Sledge and others (which I really like) but then noticed it was a bit different.

Needless to say with the lousy stock in every nearby store I've never seen one.   These days you are lucky to see something as mainstream as a Modx or Fantom.

[Mighty Motif Max]

I'd say a MODX8 might work for you - the action is subjective, build is decent but a plastic build of course. From what I understand you can integrate Mainstage patches with program changes and such into your performance banks the same as built-in sounds.

 

If you haven't seen this thread, please do check it out. I had something of a similar situation last year, but ended up with a Kurzweil PC4 after discovering how few keyboards had multi-channel program change capabilities (I was using a hardware rack rig instead, but much of the same idea overall with using it "headless" via program changes). You also have the option of an external box to do zoning, some program changes, etc, which you can combine with pretty much any keyboard and get a lot of capabilities (more details in the thread linked below).

 

 

[obxa]

If you must have sliders- I would simply add a Korg Nano Control. Then you can use any keyboard.   Even old ones, as long they have midi . Great if you're ever in a fly- date or backline situation. The Nano  is  more or less the standard for Mainstage.  Can be mapped to anything.  Cheap and works great.  I also  occasionally use a Behringer X touch.

 

The Numa X piano is great for the money and amount of USB control.  Or you could go with a Studiologic S73 controller - weighted and 73 keys.    But as a long time Mainstage user,  my advice  is to always use something that can make noise on its own in case your system goes down.  I know others here are much braver.   I do  mostly pit band, artist gig and ministry stuff.  I've had one crash in many years of using, and it wasn't actually Mainstage's fault  A stage tech pulled my power out on mac book by mistake and it died mid service. Couldn't make a sound until it rebooted.  

[drawback]

For awhile, I was considering a weighted  88 controller for a Kronos 61 and narrowed it down to two. Other than being 10lb over your max weight, the new M-Audio Hammer 88 Pro has all the bells and whistles. The Roland A88 MkII is probably the best action but no sliders, although you could control Mainstage channels with pads and knobs. If you want to go with a semiweighted 88, the new Novation could be the ticket. 

[Motif88]

Roland A88MkII

 

https://www.roland.com/us/products/a-88mk2/specifications/

 

Slightly over your weight limit but better action and Mainstage integration

 

 

[Reezekeys]

21 minutes ago, obxa said:

The Nano  is  more or less the standard for Mainstage.  Can be mapped to anything.

 

I have the original NanoKontrol  and bring it as a backup to my Roland A800 & laptop rig for my road gigs. If anything happens to the A800 I can put the Nano on any available midi keyboard and play the show with full control over everything. However... you can't configure it to send a program change - not from a button or a slider.

 

Maybe Mainstage can be set to change programs by CCs instead of PCs? Or, maybe there's Mac software that can re-map midi messages and be inserted in the midi signal path?

 

My Nano has saved me a few times in the last ten years of touring. Once when the USB jack of my A800 went south and I wasn't carrying what I needed for 5-pin midi operation, and once when a gig at a jazz festival required me to leave the A800 behind and use a rented keyboard.

[Reezekeys]

10 minutes ago, Dave Ferris said:

I'm still intimidated.. ...and worried about latency. The VPC-1 / Ravenscroft/ Focal Trio Twin 6.5 set up I tried at NAMM, granted this might have been four years ago now, had the worst latency I'd ever experienced. To the point I found it unplayable.

 

Unplayable latency is probably due to the buffer setting in the computer used to host the piano - not anything to do with the VPC-1 or the audio interface itself (if that setup included an external interface). I can get my buffer down to 64, even 32 samples (for a bare-bones setup) on my nine-year old Mac laptop. That's coming out the regular headphone output into my K8s. Latency schmatency!

[Noah DC]

3 hours ago, aronnelson said:

Well all Fatar TP100LR seem to be slow and have problems.

Studiologic fixed this with Numa X piano, but no faders. If this had faders it would be perfect

 

 

Just want to mention that, because the Numa X Piano has an audio interface built in, you can simply plug in a controller that has faders without the need for any additional gear. This would create the perfect controller, based on your listed criteria. The Studiologic SL Mixface has magnets so it will just stick to the right side of a Numa X Piano 88, almost as if it were a built-in feature. NanoKontrol (mk1) will velcro or even magnetize with an adhesive strip. That said, if you are concerned about using the real estate on that side of the keybaord, Studiologic just released a shelf that adheres firmly to the Numa X Piano 88 through magnets and/or screws.

 

https://www.studiologic-music.com/products/magnetic-computer-plate/

[ElmerJFudd]

The a 88 mark II shaves just a few hundred off the RD88 with sounds.  But maybe as a controller it’s a little more flexible and if you have plans to use main stage exclusively it seems pretty decent choice.  
 

Woody had one when it came out. 
 

 

[aronnelson]

Thank you all! Yes, I know about the small Korg controllers, I have 2 of them. I'd prefer to have it on the keyboard if possible. As for the PX-5S, it is good, but I had to fix some keys and the plastic doesn't really hold up well after putting the screws back in and mine unfortunately took a fall so for a while I had 2. I know - there's nothing like it for the price. The Roland is good but no faders. Yes, the CP/YC models are incredible! But if I had that, I probably wouldn't need my MainStage setup which I am trying. Right now I have a Korg Kronos and PX-5S and a bunch of analog gear. I have a new Mac mini m1 for MainStage and I want to have something that runs a little like my Kronos. 

The PX-5S does fit the bill, but you know how it is... I want something newer - but maybe that's not a good choice. Maybe nothing better got created?

 

>always use something that can make noise on its own

 

Yes! That's why the Numa Compact 2x seems like a decent choice. Even if it doesn't work out, it's not a huge chunk of $. The Mac mini m1 boots up FAST. Much faster than my Kronos !

 

The only bummer about the Numa is the rotary dial. In fact, most of the MIDI controllers don't have program change banks/buttons. BUMMER!

 

Maybe the choice is either a PX-5S again or the Numa compact 2x? 

 

Anyway, if anyone else has found something let me know. Thanks!

[Mighty Motif Max]

17 minutes ago, aronnelson said:

...I have a new Mac mini m1 for MainStage and I want to have something that runs a little like my Kronos. 

...

 

The only bummer about the Numa is the rotary dial. In fact, most of the MIDI controllers don't have program change banks/buttons. BUMMER!

 

Maybe the choice is either a PX-5S again or the Numa compact 2x? 

 

Anyway, if anyone else has found something let me know. Thanks!

Please check the thread I linked earlier (Thread: Any Capable 88-Key Controllers I'm Overlooking?) if you haven't already. As I mentioned in that post too, a PC4 is a strong option (use Multis), or if you like a different interface, a MODX should do the job as well. A Kawai MP7SE has good midi functionality with the ability to send program changes on four channels simultaneously, or you could also look into the Sipario box to add to any keyboard with 5-pin midi.

 

The other mention of an SL Mixface with a Numa X Piano (new TP-110) or X Piano GT (TP-400W) is a good option as well. I would still give the PC4 or MP7SE the edge, or any keyboard with the Sipario added.

[drawback]

49 minutes ago, Dave Ferris said:

 

Like I probably should have prefaced on my post...that's something that's beyond my pay grade.  

Whew! I was going to say after your Ken Boome post, that you should run very fast in the opposite direction. 

[obxa]

Don't want to hijack the thread- but regarding program change via the Nano-  Reezekeys is correct-  you can't do it directly within Mainstage which is plain stupid.  

You can scroll between your set list/concert using the nano- that's about it. 

 

However,  there are workarounds using something like Keyboard Maestro or other programs that will remap keys or midi presses.  Often encountered this situation in the past, where I just wanted to use the numberpad on my Macbook to select my presets.    I use an external USB numberpad thingie to control Abeton, also occasionally to control Mainstage.    it's convoluted, so won't go into it here but it can be done.  I've also done it using an Ipad app to send the changes- by the time you  bring all those extra pieces or do remaps, it's a PITA.

 

If your using an app like Forscore or Igigbook they can easily do program change from within the score/charts- which is what I do now. 

 

I think the OP said he was using a headless Mac( Macmini?) Mainstage can be run that way if you've done your (heavy) programming ahead of time, but I think there's  much more comfort in seeing the screen.  Allows for last minute change and feedback.  Even a tiny USB monitor would be helpful.

 

I think a lot of this depends on the type of gig and music you do?    Whenever possible-  I enjoy NOT bringing a laptop if the gig is simple bread and butter sounds. 

 

I will say the more I use the Numa X 73,  the more I really like it- and it does have buttons that could easily do  program changes.  As Noah mentioned, plenty of real estate to hold a Nano and laptop.    Its modeled  piano sound reminds me of Pianoteq's  and I really like the tweakablity on board. 

 

Regarding latency, plugins etc:  After living on the bleeding edge, my gig rig is now "hybrid" to cover just about anything.    I use  Nord Stage2, Numa X piano  Crumar Mojo Classic, and Mainstage.  But not all of them at the same time - end up using some combination depending on the gig.   I treat Mainstage like a module.    Regularly use it for EPs/ APs using Pianoteq 7, but only when its occasional parts.   Even with low latency,  I personally feel a better (and safer) finger to brain connection using something that makes its own sound for any crucial primary part.  Same reason mostly gave up on Ipad- great for non-critical aux sounds, but won't trust  it for main sounds.   

 

That said, Mainstage has saved my butt on backline and travel gigs where the gear was sub-par.

[nursers]

I have been doing research in the same area and nearly pulled the trigger on the Novation Launchkey 88 - full sized piano keys but obviously not weighted. VERY light board overall, even in a hard case it fits within checked baggage limits  

[aronnelson]

>Keyboard Maestro or other programs that will remap keys or midi presses

 

Yes ini the early days, I wrote an app that selected tracks on Logic in an attempt to get something like MainStage going. 

 

>but I think there's  much more comfort in seeing the screen

 

Yes, I VNC into the Mac mini using my iPad. Just in case I need to do something.

 

>If your using an app like Forscore or Igigbook they can easily do program change

 

Exactly! I wrote unrealBook so it does the program changes for me. I guess I could put the wireless MIDI into my MainStage interface and then use the Numa via USB only.

 

I can try it. I think it should work. 

 

I've used my Mac mini on concerts with the PX-5S and off-island with rentals or my Korg Kross. This was an older mini, so I haven't tried it with the m1 Mac mini.

 

Abresch, yes I saw that thread. I used to own a PC361 and I loved it but it had problems and I had to sell it. If the Numa Compact 2x is anything like that action, then it's fine. The mix face could work, but like I said I have 2 Korg fader units and I just want to minimize the setup. 

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

[aronnelson]

>Novation Launchkey 88

 

Yes! I was looking at it but it seems like it can only send 16 program changes. 😞

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, Stokely said:

I've never tried one but the Numa Compact 2x mentioned does check a lot of boxes...I'm not sure about the action, I thought for a while it was the Fatar tp9 from the Virus/pc361/Sledge and others (which I really like) but then noticed it was a bit different.

There are different versions of the TP9... differently shaped keys, with or without weight added, with or without aftertouch. The Numa Compact series uses the TP/9Piano variation which has piano-shaped keys, and weight added (I believe) under the front edge of the keys. But it is in the same "family" as the boards you mentioned.

 

2 hours ago, aronnelson said:

The Roland is good but no faders.

The Fantom-08 I mentioned has 8 faders (and numerous other controls), with the pros and cons I mentioned earlier. 

 

2 hours ago, aronnelson said:

Yes, the CP/YC models are incredible!  But if I had that, I probably wouldn't need my MainStage setup

Mainstage still has a lot of sonic capabilities that exceed what's in the YC73 I mentioned. 

[CyberGene]

How's the Numa Compact 2X keyboard compared to YC61? I really loved the feel of the YC61 even for Rhodes and piano. I wished there was a 73/88-key version with that waterfall keyboard.

[AnotherScott]

For piano, I rank the Yamaha YC61 action above the Numa Compact 2/2X, but not as high as the Vox Continental or Kurzweil PC4-7 (and likely the similar SP6-7, but I've never actually played one). One I'd be really curious to play is the Dexibell S1, which I think might also be a good one.

 

Roland used to make great semi-weighted actions, e.g. in the RS9 and VR700. I don't know if it would have been possible to use the VR700 action in a lightweight board, but the RS9 was light. It's a shame that their current lightweight boards (even the somewhat upscale ones like the Fantom-06/07) aren't as good feeling as the RS9.

 

 

[Motif88]

I should have mentioned the RD-88 too. Weighs 29lbs…

The other option already mentioned is the Fantom 08. I bought one and retuned it. Since I don’t play out anymore and went the software route after 25+ years of workstations, I struggled to get back to working in the workstation format.

[Reezekeys]

15 hours ago, Dr Nursers said:

I have been doing research in the same area and nearly pulled the trigger on the Novation Launchkey 88

 

"Never hit a wrong note – Scale modes transpose keys and pads to notes in the se-lected scale, so that you can focus on being creative and remove music theory frus-tration."

 

(Italics mine. Translation - bang away, doesn't matter what notes you hit, it'll sound fine!). There's something depressing and offensive to seeing a keyboard marketed like this. Putting that aside, the christmas lights-looking  pads, weird positioning of the wheels and lack of an expression pedal input makes this board an easy pass for me.

[johnchop]

I have the launchkey 88 (and a 61). 

 

Pad lighting is customizable (can be switched off). 
 

Lack of expression pedal is annoying but for the money not totally surprising.
 

Lack of an on/off switch is more irritating for me.  Mines on a USB hub with a switch.
 

“Scale mode” / “Chord mode” is everywhere these days, and I wish Novation (and others) spent the money elsewhere. But I wager customer feedback from the bedroom button pushers demographic is driving this dumbed down approach to music.

 

 

[aronnelson]

Right when I was going to give up and maybe just get another PX-5S, the RD-88 comes along.  (No faders, but will see) Thank you! Will check it out.

[obxa]

That Roland looks very nice-that would be a great studio piece. I'm with Woody, shame they couldn't just include a basic piano sound onboard.

 

 Have you considered a lightweight slab piano such as the Yamaha P121 or any of the Casios?   You'd still have to use some sort of controller thingie to get sliders etc.- but you'd  have a bare bones compact weighted controller that can make nice EP/APs on it's own.   My original  plan was for a P121 to replace my p255,  but they were  backordered so long, I went for the Numa.  Yamaha has USB Midi, but doesn't have normal midi 5 pin. Not sure about the Casios.  

 

Re:  Novation Launch key or Nektar Impact.    The Novations have wonderful feeling semi weighted waterfall keys.   Ton of assignable stuff.  Work well with Mainstage.  

I have the 61 note Novation Impulse (same keyboard as Launchkey).  Got it  to use w/ IK BX3 organ, Mainstage, and occasionally act as 2nd keyboard to the Nord Compact or Nord 88.    It's one of the few semi-weighted keybeds I can actually play piano on- I like it better than the Nord Compact action.    Worth noting because these things always pop up very cheap used or open box.   

 

As to the 16 program change limitation:  You probably know this already- you can  always nest one of your concert patches to call up a new bank, or concert.   Also through judicious use of aliases, you can do patches that contain multiple layers (inactive) and enable-disable layers as needed to get more mileage out of single patch.

[Motif88]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51APlqLvqyc&t=106s

 

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

RD88 is a good option for its size/weight and Mainstage integration... the reason I mentioned Fantom-08 but not RD88 was the lack of sliders. I suppose you might be able to fit the NanoKontrol, though, with a bit of overhang, and some velcro to keep it in place...

[aronnelson]

OK I went to the music store today and tried a few keyboards. First off, I did not like the RD-88. The keybed was ok but the piano sound was brittle and not very musical (to me). I tried various lighter action controllers and of all things, I thought the Arturia Keylab 61 had a very decent action. I think I could use this one. Too bad it can only send 16 program changes. The Novation Launchkey action was ok too. But also limited on program changes. Several of the Novation controllers had decent light actions.

 

Then I played the Yamaha MODX8 and the sound of this keyboard was so much more musical than the RD, but no way am I going to carry that.

 

So I kind of gave up. No one has any controllers with the TP100 so I won't take a chance when I know the TP110 was created to fix the problems. I could live with the Arturia Essential if it has the same action as the Keylab 61 - so does it?

 

Maybe I should just wait for NAMM.

[AnotherScott]

10 minutes ago, aronnelson said:

Then I played the Yamaha MODX8 and the sound of this keyboard was so much more musical than the RD, but no way am I going to carry that.

I agree, MODX pianos are better than RD88 (or Fantom-0). MODX8 is only 10 ounces heavier than the RD88, so I guess it's the overall size that knocks it out for you. What about a MODX7? With some tweaking of the velocity adjustments, I think pianos are pretty playable (which I found I wanted to do with the YC73 as well). Or again, the Kurzweil PC4-7 which gives you all the real-time controls (9 sliders, 9 knobs... plus aftertouch and optional ribbon, if you'd like).