For you guys using computers in your live rig…. Thoughts on this concept? Leave your interface at home !!!

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

Using your keyboard as an audio interface in a live setting?  Beneficial or nah?  Leave those interfaces at the house!!!

 

This concept works on USB audio from iPads too….
 

 

[EscapeRocks]

I do.

 

When I bring my Mainstage rig out, my Fantom -08 is also my audio interface.  Make for a very nice and clean setup.

 

I also take advantage of the audio over  USB so I can run any internal Fantom sounds thru effects in Mainstage.

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

Just now, EscapeRocks said:

I do.

 

When I bring my Mainstage rig out, my Fantom -08 is also my audio interface.  Make for a very nice and clean setup.

 

I also take advantage of the audio over  USB so I can run any internal Fantom sounds thru effects in Mainstage.

Hi David.  

 

Do you use the outputs from the computer?  a dedicated interface?  or do you route the audio out of secondary outputs from the keyboard?  and why did you select whichever option you chose?

[EscapeRocks]

Hey Julius,

 

 No need to use the Outputs from the Macbook Pro.

Since the Fantom is acting as the audio i/o, I simply run the main outs to my Radial PRO D2 DI box.

 

I run the Fantom in 'Local Off' so if I want a sound from the Fantom, I create an external Channel Strip in Mainstage.

 

Further, the Fantom-0 is a great master controller.   I have mine setup to send Program change to Mainstage.   That way I never have to change the setlist/patch order in Mainstage.

 

Just hit the Scene/chain I want on the Fantom, and it brings up what I need in Mainstage.

[AnotherScott]

Yes, this has been discussed before, some people definitely find this to be a very valuable feature. Yamaha has done it for a while on numerous boards (including Montage/MODX... I think MOXF was the first). Kurzweil added this function to the new K2700. Roland does it but unfortunately in a way that requires loading their own drivers, which means it works if you're running a PC/Mac, but not if you're running an iPad. Dexibell does it, but the one time I tried it, latency was worse taking audio back into the board over USB than it was taking a line out of the iPad. (I haven't tried it on those other boards, so I don't know what the latency situation is there.)

[Reezekeys]

USB audio on the keyboard is great if your keyboard makes sounds that you want to use along with what's coming from the computer or tablet/phone. For myself, having a controller-only keyboard means that 99% of the time my audio comes from my computer's headphone output only, so in practical terms my situation is the same as those doing it the other way - a single audio output source, no external interface required. The other 1% of the time is when I need a separate dedicated output for a percussion loop or click. For that I use a USB port on my computer to add this Peavey combo D/A and direct box:

 

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

26 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Yes, this has been discussed before, some people definitely find this to be a very valuable feature. Yamaha has done it for a while on numerous boards (including Montage/MODX... I think MOXF was the first). Kurzweil added this function to the new K2700. Roland does it but unfortunately in a way that requires loading their own drivers, which means it works if you're running a PC/Mac, but not if you're running an iPad. Dexibell does it, but the one time I tried it, latency was worse taking audio back into the board over USB than it was taking a line out of the iPad. (I haven't tried it on those other boards, so I don't know what the latency situation is there.)

Yeah USB capability is great.  I was more so meaning the fact of being able to route the audio directly out of the keyboard secondary outputs...

 

The modx doesn't have that...

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

1 minute ago, Reezekeys said:

USB audio on the keyboard is great if your keyboard makes sounds that you want to use along with what's coming from the computer or tablet/phone. For myself, having a controller-only keyboard means that 99% of the time my audio comes from my computer's headphone output only, so in practical terms my situation is the same as those doing it the other way - a single output source, no external audio interface required. The other 1% of the time is when I need a separate dedicated output for a percussion loop or click. For that I use a USB port on my computer to add this Peavey combo D/A and direct box:

 

I've never seen that box before.  It's interesting.  A DI for a computer....  So the DI has USB drivers?

If so, that's a nice alternative... And still no interface. 

[JamPro]

Yes!!!  Putting the AD/DA interface in the keyboard itself is THE game-changing technology of the 2020s.  A thousand times Yes!!!  Leave the interface, the power supply, and the cables at home; just bring the keyboard.

 

Now if someone can come up with an 88-note controller (keyboard without internal sound ROM) with decent piano feel and built-in AD/DA interface, that would be killer.  (Come to think of it, it would only need DA.) (or maybe a laptop/ipad with onboard DA conversion and with stereo 1/4" outputs.)

[Reezekeys]

1 minute ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

I've never seen that box before.  It's interesting.  A DI for a computer....  So the DI has USB drivers?

If so, that's a nice alternative... And still no interface. 

 

Well technically it is an interface, isn't it? An external box for getting audio out of the computer. It's class-compliant so requires no drivers (meaning it should work with tablets/phones as well as computers, though I haven't tried that). What's nice is that it makes it very easy to connect a computer directly to a PA system. The XLRs are ground-lifted (no selector switch, it's made that way). I used this piece on a tour of the UK last year to send percussion loops to the monitors & house independent of my keyboard sounds which came from my MacBook Pro's headphone output. It's inexpensive - a little over $50, so no Jensen transfomers and 44.1/48K only. You probably wouldn't make a record with it, but for live work it was absolutely fine.

[AnotherScott]

25 minutes ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

Yeah USB capability is great.  I was more so meaning the fact of being able to route the audio directly out of the keyboard secondary outputs...

 

The modx doesn't have that...

Oh, I see. Yes, most of the boards that have audio-over-USB merge the external device's audio with the board's own audio, sending it out all together from the board's main outputs. That's often what someone wants, because it can obviate the need for an amp with multiple inputs, or an external mixer, and also reduce total wiring. But if you want to keep the external device's audio independent, which is certainly also valuable, then yeah, the ability to route that audio to its own output is what you need,

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Oh, I see. Yes, most of the boards that have audio-over-USB merge the external device's audio with the board's own audio, sending it out all together from the board's main outputs. That's often what someone wants, because it can obviate the need for an amp with multiple inputs, or an external mixer, and also reduce total wiring. But if you want to keep the external device's audio independent, which is certainly also valuable, then yeah, the ability to route that audio to its own output is what you need,

Yes there are huge amounts of value in keeping things separate.  For recording purposes and also for mixing.... Unless you don't want the FOH engineer to have control over your mix.  

[Mighty Motif Max]

I believe the current Roland Fantom can do that - I'm about 300 miles from my Fantom 7 right now but I believe you can send the incoming USB signal to whatever output(s) you want. You might be able to split each USB channel seeing as it's multi-channel, but I've never done it so I'm not totally sure.

[yannis D]

My little Novation Ultranova does the USB-over-audio thing but when it does it, you have to turn the internal sounds off. So it's either the internal sounds or the laptop sounds that go out from the Novation's audio out but not both at the same time.

But it's practical to just be able to connect the MacBook to the Ultranova with a single USB cable and be done without the hassle of connection a sound interface...

You just have to be aware of different sounds and levels (you or your FOH)

 

 

[EscapeRocks]

Yes the Fantoms USB output can be routed to the sub outs to keep it separate from internal sounds.  Or vice versa 

 

Personally I’ve always had one board in my rig have internal sounds. 
 

It a built in backup should anything ever go wrong with the computer.  Although in 10 years I’ve never had a gig stopping failure 

 

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

When I was touring, we had issues sometimes with computer connected to USB interfaces caused a lot of noise... And DIs would sometimes fix it and sometimes it wouldn't.  The only sure fire way we could always get rid of the noise to just use the headphone jack form the computer.   Once that USB metal touched that metal inside the connection.... NOISE!!! 

 

I wonder if this keyboard as interface solution would have fixed the issue....🧐.  We would still probably needed DIs for the secondary outputs though.  

[Reezekeys]

49 minutes ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

The only sure fire way we could always get rid of the noise to just use the headphone jack form the computer.

 

I used to use a MOTU MicroBook IIc audio interface with my MacBook Pro. It wasn't noisy, but did crash on me in the middle of a show. I had to reboot my hosting software and re-load my whole setup when that happened (USB midi devices can be hot plugged in & out with no ill effects, at least on my rig) . After the MOTU crashed I switched to using the laptop's headphone output and it's been solid ever since. I also switched from USB midi to 5-pin for the same reason – reliability.

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I used to use a MOTU MicroBook IIc audio interface with my MacBook Pro. It wasn't noisy, but did crash on me in the middle of a show. I had to reboot my hosting software and re-load my whole setup when that happened (USB midi devices can be hot plugged in & out with no ill effects, at least on my rig) . After the MOTU crashed I switched to using the laptop's headphone output and it's been solid ever since. I also switched from USB midi to 5-pin for the same reason – reliability.

Yeah we never had a crash but that noise during sound check was annoying…. Definitely understand it from a stability standpoint too.

[Al Coda]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

I switched to using the laptop's headphone output and it's been solid ever since. I also switched from USB midi to 5-pin for the same reason – reliability.

 

 

Yep, times changed.

Today, the onboard audio systems sound good enough for live peerformance.

I´d gig w/ Realtek HD audio of my Lenovo workstation laptop and ASIO4ALL when I needed and I´d do similar w/ a Macbook,- core audio and headphone out,- as long as I´m covered w/ 1 stereo output channel.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[MPN21]

On 9/13/2022 at 3:15 PM, Al Coda said:

 

 

Yep, times changed.

Today, the onboard audio systems sound good enough for live peerformance.

I´d gig w/ Realtek HD audio of my Lenovo workstation laptop and ASIO4ALL when I needed and I´d do similar w/ a Macbook,- core audio and headphone out,- as long as I´m covered w/ 1 stereo output channel.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

Indeed.   Recently I purchased a cheap Win 11 portable pc.  I didn't know that Window Audio driver worked that good.   Also, it's multi-client allowing me to play VST plug-ins while playing media files or Youtube whereas Asio4all is single-client.  

[D. Gauss]

Even the Yamaha P-125 does this.  One USB cable to the ipad. Done.

[Al Coda]

3 hours ago, MPN21 said:

I didn't know that Window Audio driver worked that good.   Also, it's multi-client allowing me to play VST plug-ins while playing media files or Youtube whereas Asio4all is single-client.  

 

I mentioned Windows RealteK HD audio because of the improved sonic quality compared to the past,- but

 

Win 10 Pro x64 audio drivers (WDM, WASAPI etc.) introduce WAY more latency than ASIO4ALL.

Here is a working complementary multiclient driver / router for Windows.

 

Features:

    Extremely high performance for Pro Audio apps.
    Zero added ASIO latency.
    64 IN + 64 OUT virtual ASIO channels.
    32 IN + 32 OUT WDM audio channels.
    16 IN + 16 OUT network audio channels.
    Multi-client mode means ASIO for up to 25 apps.
    Works without internal WDM or ASIO audio resampling.
    Record lossless 8 channel audio to FLAC file.
    Supports Windows XP, Vista, 7, 8, 8.1 and 10.
    Route audio to/from WDM/MME/DirectSound/WASAPI and LAN/NET

 

It´s free now.

 

download

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[MPN21]

I can get down to 144 samples using Window Audio - still nothing like my MBP, but for Windows machines, I'd say times have changed.   I mean WDM for live playing?  Forget it; it used to be 1024 samples...    I read some months ago that Microsoft has significantly reduced audio latency.   At 144, I don't really feel latency even when I play fast passages.   With Window Audio, I don't have to run a 3rd party app like O Deus.   I was a registered user.   In fact, I spoke to the person who "cracked" it (I think with the permission by the deceased author's nephew) to see if he could do the same with MIDIThru by the same developer. 

[Al Coda]

7 hours ago, MPN21 said:

I can get down to 144 samples using Window Audio - still nothing like my MBP, but for Windows machines, I'd say times have changed.   I mean WDM for live playing?  Forget it; it used to be 1024 samples...    I read some months ago that Microsoft has significantly reduced audio latency.   At 144, I don't really feel latency even when I play fast passages.   With Window Audio, I don't have to run a 3rd party app like O Deus.   I was a registered user.   In fact, I spoke to the person who "cracked" it (I think with the permission by the deceased author's nephew) to see if he could do the same with MIDIThru by the same developer. 

 

Win 10 or 11 ?

 

Are you able posting a screenshot of your audio settings ?

 

When I use a standalone version of a plugin,- let´s say "Dexed" or "discoDSP OB-Xd" p.ex. and I choose Windows Audio or Wasapi,- Win Audio is the worst while WASAPI is better but lightyears apart from 144 samples you mention above.

MIDI issue cann be excluded,- I use a Roland A-800 Pro w/ it´s excellent advanced MIDI driver for testing.

"Dexed" standalone is a good test object bcause It doesn´t use ASIO in standalone mode at all.

I have same results w/ Cherry Audio and Arturia standalone versions and with these it´s possible to compare ASIO and Windows Audio.

 

☺️

 

A,C.

[The Real MC]

No laptops no mobiles for my stage rig.  Period.  I have seen too many of them crash and hold up a show.

[MPN21]

6 hours ago, Al Coda said:

 

Win 10 or 11 ?

 

Are you able posting a screenshot of your audio settings ?

 

When I use a standalone version of a plugin,- let´s say "Dexed" or "discoDSP OB-Xd" p.ex. and I choose Windows Audio or Wasapi,- Win Audio is the worst while WASAPI is better but lightyears apart from 144 samples you mention above.

MIDI issue cann be excluded,- I use a Roland A-800 Pro w/ it´s excellent advanced MIDI driver for testing.

"Dexed" standalone is a good test object bcause It doesn´t use ASIO in standalone mode at all.

I have same results w/ Cherry Audio and Arturia standalone versions and with these it´s possible to compare ASIO and Windows Audio.

 

☺️

 

A,C.

I "discovered" it first with my new, but dirt cheap Win 11 mini pc.  Then I tried it on my Window 10 Lenovo hybrid.  The same results!   It is as if Microsoft improved audio latency recently but remained silent because they were too embarrassed to talk about it.    OK, just installed Dxed in the Win 11.  The 3rd pic is a screen capture of Gig Performer showing the audio setup in my Window 10 machine.  It seems to me that GP just handles things better than anything else.  So I never run standalone VST by itself, always within  GP.   Now, are you ready for this?   It was shocking to me that I could play VST plugins at 144 samples in a Windows machine using Windows Audio driver.   The worst plugin, as far as latency is concerned in my experience, is Kirk Hunter's Virtuoso Ensembles.  When you play its multis, forget it; popping and crackling like crazy even at 256 or 512 samples.    However, my under $400 mini pc with 16gb ram & 1TB ssd was playing it just fine!   Now here's the real kicker; it has a Celeron chip!   I thought I would be happy if I can just watch YT, browse, email, and etc.   I haven't done any audio latency tweaking, I was watching YT on a second monitor while playing plugins......     I can only echo what you said; Times have changed.    If this thing works this well, well, why don't I start taking it to a "non-critical" gig? I said to myself. 

[Al Coda]

Thx for posting !

 

I tried on my Win10 Lenovo Intel i7 quad core, 16GB RAM, 2 SSDs.

Installed Dexed standalone all new and opened audio/midi settings.

 

Options:

Windows Audio

Windows Audio exclusive mode

Windows Audio low latency mode

 

When I decide for Windows Audio, I´m able selecting buffer size and I was able to set it to 144 samples too.

48K sample rate is fixed,- no 44.1Khz option.

 

When I choose Windows Audio low latency mode,- no buffer selection,- a fixed 480 samples / 10ms @48K setting instead.

 

When I used Tone2 Nano Host x64, I get other options in audio/midi settings:

 

MME: Microsoft Sound Wrapper

MME: Loudspeaker / Earphones Realtek HD Audio

DS: Primary Sounddriver

DS: Loudspeaker / Earphones realtek HD Audio

ASIO: ASIO4ALL V2

ASIO: Rearoute ASIO (x64)

 

I guess "DS" means "Direct Sound"

 

Now the bummer,-

 

The buffer display in Windows Audio is incorrect and FAR AWAY from being 144samples (3ms) ! - or, there is another "pre"-buffer you don´t see and/or isn´t reported by Windows Audio.

 

ASIO4ALL V2 @256 samples (~5ms) is WAY less latency than Windows Audio @144 samples (3ms) !

The latter is fake.

You feel and hear it clearly.

 

The sonic quality is good though.

 

So, w/o using a dedicated audio interface like RME and it´s proprietary drivers,- ASIO4ALL w/ laptop line-out/ phones output is the best result still !

 

It´s a shame we cannot select ASIO in Dexed standalone mode at all,- so I used a different VSTi for the test w/ Nano Host x64.

With Nano Host I´m able to convert every VST2 plugin into a standalone version,- but doesn´t work for VST3 plugins (what latest Dexed is).

 

But it´s possible to make the test w/ OB-Xd because it allows selection of Windows Audio or ASIO in standalone mode,-

 

same results !

 

☺️

 

A.C.

 

 

[MPN21]

You're welcome, AC.  It's good that we compare our notes to see what good options are out there for us end-users.  I use VSTHost for quick test-driving, and it didn't even list Windows audio but all kinds of junk; DS this, DS that, on, and on including TD-1655.   That's my external touchscreen USB C monitor that is not even turned on!!!   Anyway, I fired up Dxed in Gig Performer to do an A/B between Windows Audio & Asio4All v2.15 beta 2.    I had to go through a number of presets in Dxed to play some fast passages from Czardas as most of the Dxed patches have long decays.   I really couldn't tell any latency difference.  In fact, when I tried to switch to different sample rates on Asio4all, it crashed a few times.  In addition, Asio4ll really choked when playing Virtuoso Ensembles even at 256 samples whereas Windows Audio played it fine at 144.  So in my case, Windows Audio works better for me as it seems to be very stable.   Virtuos Ensembles is a CPU hog.   It is a Kontakt library.   I never run Kontakt as a standalone.   I run it and everything else in Gig Performer as GP handles audio setup and everything else much better.    I also use Gig Performer in MBP rather than Mainstage.  I often say, Gig Performer makes my Windows machines act like a Mac.   It just runs very smooth and so intuitive.  I don't have to read the manual to do some innovative things with it though don't consider myself a power user. 

[MPN21]

On 9/15/2022 at 10:51 AM, The Real MC said:

No laptops no mobiles for my stage rig.  Period.  I have seen too many of them crash and hold up a show.

You got a point there.  I would be very nervous playing a total "soundless" midi controller.   I still have my Numa Stage piano.  It has a very nice  midi control setup totally independent from its sounds; only a few sounds such as piano, string, pad, and organ.  That's about it.   It your computer crashes, you can still play.  Any performing midi controller should have at least one or two sounds, I'd say. 

   

[Al Coda]

5 hours ago, MPN21 said:

You're welcome, AC.  It's good that we compare our notes to see what good options are out there for us end-users.  I use VSTHost for quick test-driving, and it didn't even list Windows audio but all kinds of junk; DS this, DS that, on, and on including TD-1655.   That's my external touchscreen USB C monitor that is not even turned on!!!   Anyway, I fired up Dxed in Gig Performer to do an A/B between Windows Audio & Asio4All v2.15 beta 2.    I had to go through a number of presets in Dxed to play some fast passages from Czardas as most of the Dxed patches have long decays.   I really couldn't tell any latency difference.  In fact, when I tried to switch to different sample rates on Asio4all, it crashed a few times.  In addition, Asio4ll really choked when playing Virtuoso Ensembles even at 256 samples whereas Windows Audio played it fine at 144.  So in my case, Windows Audio works better for me as it seems to be very stable.   Virtuos Ensembles is a CPU hog.   It is a Kontakt library.   I never run Kontakt as a standalone.   I run it and everything else in Gig Performer as GP handles audio setup and everything else much better.    I also use Gig Performer in MBP rather than Mainstage.  I often say, Gig Performer makes my Windows machines act like a Mac.   It just runs very smooth and so intuitive.  I don't have to read the manual to do some innovative things with it though don't consider myself a power user. 

 

 

Well, I don´t fight for ASIO4ALL,- but I´m surprised we get very different results w/ exactly the same settings.

VSTis are hard to play for me w/ Windows Audio´s reported 144 samples buffer.

 

When I use ASIO, everything is fine,- may it be ASIO4ALL or the S|C Scope/XITE ASIO driver I use w/ my XITE-1 as the interface together w/ Reaper, Studio One Pro and Reason 11.4.3.

I can duplicate my results on my Win7 Pro SP1 rackmount DAW machine.

 

ASIO4ALL is out of beta since feb 2022 and beta 2 was followed by beta 3 before it became the current version ...

 

ASIO4ALL 2.15 final Win10 / 11

 

I now wonder what´s causing these very different results.

 

☺️

 

A.C.