Keyboard submixer....

[kenheeter]

Loving my Numa X 73 - haven't tried the onboard mixer yet but it's a great feature.

[Justin Havu]

I've been using the XR18 for quite a bit of stuff--keyboard mixer, live sound, multitrack recording to my DAW, it's been solid at everything I've done with it.  Only thing is the onboard WiFi is very flaky.  I'll be looking into getting an external router for mine.

[Tom Williams]

I've been using an XR12.  Recently for small gigs I've downsized to one Kurzweil + an 88 key MIDI controller, and haven't needed a submix.

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

On 8/8/2022 at 8:55 AM, Stokely said:

XR18 (though I think I heard this may be discontinued?) would make more sense for keys...though you'd need an ipad to control it.   Not all that expensive, has effects if you need them, lots of routing if you want to bring back FOH monitor in stereo if you can...still overkill for just a couple keyboards.

Our band has a small QSC touchmix they use for duo gigs, that might be an option.  The touchmix mixers are nice.  Again though these probably have a lot more features than needed as they are FOH mixers.

I'm going to see what kind of latency I get with the Key Largo's audio interface and my macbook pro.  I got a wild hair and picked up mainstage and while I'd never depend solely on a laptop live, I do have a lot of nice VSTs that would be fun to fold into my hardware sounds.   Being able to edit patches on a 32" monitor where everything tends to be on one screen is a huge advantage over doing it on a keyboard.    Extra bonus if I can find a nice mono piano.  Most of my piano vsts didn't fare well in mono, CFX lite probably did the best.  The S700 (or S6? can't recall now) that someone suggested I try on the MODX was an improvement over the CFX in mono, but I'm still looking around.   Which leads me to a PSA--Soniccouture is having  a great bundle sale if you need their type of stuff...5 or 10 libraries at a huge discount per library.  They make the Canterbury Suitcase and Hammersmith Pro piano, and the Hammersmith has a microphone option to use a mono recording.

Only issue is that he needs 32 inputs...

[Dave Bryce]

21 minutes ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

Only issue is that he needs 32 inputs...

 

Is he looking for the best?

 

If so, the Speck x.sum I suggested a few posts ago is the way....and it is 32 x 4.  

 

It ain't exactly the most affordable option, though....but the superb sound, build quality and lack of noise/distortion is worth it, IMO.

 

dB

 

 

[Steve Nathan]

Scary to think I used one of these for years, and used every one of those inputs!

 

[NewImprov]

2 hours ago, Steve Nathan said:

Scary to think I used one of these for years, and used every one of those inputs!

 

I still have one of these, and I use every input on it! it handles all my modular stuff, and all my keys that live in the studio. I'm sure it doesn't sound the best, but it still works, and sounds decent if you are careful with gain-staging.

 

[Mills Dude]

Ahh, those old Roland line mixers.  The good old days, a 16 space rack with one off those, a MOTU midi patch bay and a plethora of romplers.  Midi stacking for days.

 

I remember Alesis had a line of this style mixer, late 80's, that was cheaper but a bad design where the control surface was a single circuit board and prone to failure.  Those rolands have a much better design and most lasted much longer.

 

To the OP's question, why 32 channels for a keys submixer?  Back in the day, I had enough modules to fill 16 channels in stereo but even that was overkill. 

 

I replaced my old Mackie 1604 with a Behringer XR18 a few years back and was happy with that until my son took it for his band.  They're still using it for some live and recording.   I was one of those "Friends don't let friends buy Behringer" sort of guy and I totally respect those who choose not to buy their stuff.   One time I relented and got an RX1602 line mixer and regretted it.  It was noisy and a few channels stopped working less than a year after buying it.

 

But about 8 years ago, I was doing a regular worship gig at a small church and the BL was also the sound guy, I had known him for years and was a big gear snob.  He's a buyer for AMS.  I walk into the church and he's got an X32 (the full control console since it was a stationary install).  I was shocked he would buy that but he said it was good stuff since its really the Midas tech packaged as Behringer.   

 

When I scaled down my studio, I got the XR18 and dumped all the old rompler modules.  Still too many channels, so I gave it to my son since he gets more use out of it.  These days, I use a Scarlett 4 channel interface since I need 1 or 2 mic inputs and play everything out of the PC.

 

As noted the Wifi on the X series is crap.  It works ok in a stationary install as a Wifi client but if you're bringing it out live, don't advertise the access point or you'll get half the bar trying to connect to it and it will crap out.   Plug the ethernet into one of those GLi.net travel routers they sell on Amazon.  They're pretty crap too but much better than the wifi on the XR mixers.  Don't broadcast that hotspot either, preconfigure all the devices with the network name.

[EscapeRocks]

I have my Focusrite 18i20 Gen 3 in the rack.   It can also act as a stand alone  mixer when I want it to.

 

I have it wired up so the Main Output goes to FOH.   The monitor output goes to my ears transmitter in the rack.

I also have it setup to take the monitor feed from the house and plug into Channel 1 on the front panel.  This is only routed to the monitor out.    Once I get all the relative levels set via whatever app I'm using (X/M32 Mix, Q32Mix, Mixing station), I then have one knob level control on what's sent to me (rest of band) and a separate knob for keys level in my ears.

 

I like separating those as there are time I want to boost or lower my keys level in my ears (without effecting FOH)    Works well for me.

 

As far as the XR12/16/18:   When I used the XR12, I got an inexpensive wireless router that I sat in the rack, and never had connection issues after that.

Also, I don't think they've been discontinued, rather they're suffering the same component availability everyone else is.

 

Last: on the X32; to get the full 32 inputs, you also need the extension input box.

 

[SamuelBLupowitz]

On 8/10/2022 at 8:27 AM, counterpoint said:

Curious...are all of you just using separate keyboard mixers to reduce your outputs from multiple keyboards/sources to one or two for FOH?  Maybe that plus creating some kind of hybrid monitor mix for yourself like kenheeter?  Anyone using one for extra EQ-ing, effects, signal processing or something else?  In my effort to lighten the load and streamline my set-up, between the ability of the YC to mix itself, another keyboard and a USB audio source and having a digital mixer for FOH that lets you bring back and control whatever monitor feed you want directly from that mixer, I have gladly shed mine.

One of the great things about having the CP88 in my rig is now if I do a two-board gig (piano and synth or piano and organ), I don't need a mixer or an amp or anything, I just use the onboard stereo inputs, and direct the sound engineer to the balanced XLR outputs.

 

But most of the gigs I'm playing in bands are three-board gigs (or gigs that don't call for an 88-key stage piano), so I still need to feed things into a small Rolls stereo line mixer I bought off someone else on the forum.. I'm not doing any EQing from the mixer, and I get my in-ear mix from a separate little monitor amp. So I do occasionally think about getting something that would streamline my process a little, now that I'm feeling satisfied with this current gig rig and its variations... but it would have to *actually* make my setup and teardown faster and easier!

[kenheeter]

So, the beauty of the XR12 for me is that it is my stereo D.I. for FOH plus I can set up levels for my various keyboards in my studio at home.  I have labels on the XR inputs for each of the keyboards I might choose to use on the gig and then just plug in what I bring.  I almost never have to tweak the mixer at the gig.  It sits on the floor next to my keyboard stand and works flawlessly.  I have made up a power snake that has one male plug that feeds many lines with both types of power connectors that my keyboards and amps  use.  I can literally set my rig up in about 5 minutes.  

[Morrissey]

On 8/10/2022 at 9:24 AM, HammondDave said:

Here is my keyboard mixer…. 4 ins (6, including the Numa sounds), 2 outs. 
 

 

Am jonesin' for a board with a built in mixer.  The Yamaha CP73 / 88 also caught my eye for this functionality, although it has just a single pair of stereo inputs.

[Noah DC]

3 minutes ago, Morrissey said:

 

Am jonesin' for a board with a built in mixer.  The Yamaha CP73 / 88 also caught my eye for this functionality, although it has just a single pair of stereo inputs.

Worth noting for folks who haven’t looked into it yet that the CP functionality in this area is way more limited than other boards like the Numa. Only control is an input gain knob in the back - or an expression pedal from a firmware update, if I’m recalling right. That turned me off the CP73 a bit. Numa has entire suite of mixer functionality laid out with knob control, including EQ, gain, effects for each channel and for the overall mix, etc. 

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

What's crazy is that while alot of these options are great, there aren't many 32 channel options at all.  Very few.  And the few that are there are EXPENSIVE!!!!

12 hours ago, Morrissey said:

 

Am jonesin' for a board with a built in mixer.  The Yamaha CP73 / 88 also caught my eye for this functionality, although it has just a single pair of stereo inputs.

2 outs with 6 ins is pretty limiting... But I get it. 

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

13 hours ago, kenheeter said:

So, the beauty of the XR12 for me is that it is my stereo D.I. for FOH plus I can set up levels for my various keyboards in my studio at home.  I have labels on the XR inputs for each of the keyboards I might choose to use on the gig and then just plug in what I bring.  I almost never have to tweak the mixer at the gig.  It sits on the floor next to my keyboard stand and works flawlessly.  I have made up a power snake that has one male plug that feeds many lines with both types of power connectors that my keyboards and amps  use.  I can literally set my rig up in about 5 minutes.  

Would you ever consider using 3 of these to get to 32 channels? (Well 36 but you know what I mean)

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

On 8/15/2022 at 11:32 AM, EscapeRocks said:

I have my Focusrite 18i20 Gen 3 in the rack.   It can also act as a stand alone  mixer when I want it to.

 

I have it wired up so the Main Output goes to FOH.   The monitor output goes to my ears transmitter in the rack.

I also have it setup to take the monitor feed from the house and plug into Channel 1 on the front panel.  This is only routed to the monitor out.    Once I get all the relative levels set via whatever app I'm using (X/M32 Mix, Q32Mix, Mixing station), I then have one knob level control on what's sent to me (rest of band) and a separate knob for keys level in my ears.

 

I like separating those as there are time I want to boost or lower my keys level in my ears (without effecting FOH)    Works well for me.

 

As far as the XR12/16/18:   When I used the XR12, I got an inexpensive wireless router that I sat in the rack, and never had connection issues after that.

Also, I don't think they've been discontinued, rather they're suffering the same component availability everyone else is.

 

Last: on the X32; to get the full 32 inputs, you also need the extension input box.

 

Extension input box???? 🤔

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

On 8/12/2022 at 1:25 AM, Mills Dude said:

Ahh, those old Roland line mixers.  The good old days, a 16 space rack with one off those, a MOTU midi patch bay and a plethora of romplers.  Midi stacking for days.

 

I remember Alesis had a line of this style mixer, late 80's, that was cheaper but a bad design where the control surface was a single circuit board and prone to failure.  Those rolands have a much better design and most lasted much longer.

 

To the OP's question, why 32 channels for a keys submixer?  Back in the day, I had enough modules to fill 16 channels in stereo but even that was overkill. 

 

I replaced my old Mackie 1604 with a Behringer XR18 a few years back and was happy with that until my son took it for his band.  They're still using it for some live and recording.   I was one of those "Friends don't let friends buy Behringer" sort of guy and I totally respect those who choose not to buy their stuff.   One time I relented and got an RX1602 line mixer and regretted it.  It was noisy and a few channels stopped working less than a year after buying it.

 

But about 8 years ago, I was doing a regular worship gig at a small church and the BL was also the sound guy, I had known him for years and was a big gear snob.  He's a buyer for AMS.  I walk into the church and he's got an X32 (the full control console since it was a stationary install).  I was shocked he would buy that but he said it was good stuff since its really the Midas tech packaged as Behringer.   

 

When I scaled down my studio, I got the XR18 and dumped all the old rompler modules.  Still too many channels, so I gave it to my son since he gets more use out of it.  These days, I use a Scarlett 4 channel interface since I need 1 or 2 mic inputs and play everything out of the PC.

 

As noted the Wifi on the X series is crap.  It works ok in a stationary install as a Wifi client but if you're bringing it out live, don't advertise the access point or you'll get half the bar trying to connect to it and it will crap out.   Plug the ethernet into one of those GLi.net travel routers they sell on Amazon.  They're pretty crap too but much better than the wifi on the XR mixers.  Don't broadcast that hotspot either, preconfigure all the devices with the network name.

The client I'm helping wants to have enough inputs to setup 32 channels of keyboards in his home studio.  (That was his request).  I told him about a patch bay and how convenient it would be, but he wants all 32 available at all times. )

I too was like that at one point in my journey... Not for 32 inputs but for 12-16... I ended up with a Mackie onyx 1220i.  Lol.  Man that was a long time ago. 

[Adam Burgess]

X32 Rack plus one of the stageboxes Behringer do would get you the most physical channels in the smallest space

Also, cheapest, I think, without using a large format 32 channel analog desk with limited routing!

You can always have 32 each way over USB to and from the desk. (And, 20 physical outs?)

I use a patchbay with my X32 Rack at home. Main snakes for the stuff I use most are normalled thru the patchbay, but having another infinite amount of connections helps more than you would think.  

Aux and the other 6 XLR outs are also thru the patchbay in my set up, apart from the mains which go straight to monitors.

I'd convince him to do an X32 Rack and the patchbay. 

EDITED: X32 does max out at 40 channels - regardless if the inputs are USB or physical XLR/jacks on the unit or with a stage box

 

[cphollis]

11 hours ago, Adam Burgess said:

X32 Rack plus one of the stageboxes Behringer do would get you the most physical channels in the smallest space

Also, cheapest, I think, without using a large format 32 channel analog desk with limited routing!

You can always have 32 each way over USB to and from the desk. (And, 20 physical outs?)

I use a patchbay with my X32 Rack at home. Main snakes for the stuff I use most are normalled thru the patchbay, but having another infinite amount of connections helps more than you would think.  

Aux and the other 6 XLR outs are also thru the patchbay in my set up, apart from the mains which go straight to monitors.

I'd convince him to do an X32 Rack and the patchbay. 

EDITED: X32 does max out at 40 channels - regardless if the inputs are USB or physical XLR/jacks on the unit or with a stage box

 

Agreed.  I use the X32 Rack and two of the digital snakes for both studio and live work.  The SD8 and SD16 both have combo jacks, making it easy to connect whatever and keep the cable nest under control.  It's a very slick setup, and very cost-effective.  These items have been out of stock, but I just got a notice from Sweetwater so I'm hopeful I can pick up another one.

[Theo Verelst]

The specific question I haven't dealt with in a long time. Having your own stage mix (and maybe mixer person) is cool, and sometimes you'll want to bring a complicated setup and control it, I get that. Twice digital isn't superb. You sub mixer when used for feeding the main mixer might be the weakest link audio quality-wise, also the amount of outputs you're still going to give relative volume control over to the main sound mixer makes it possible for the FOH mix to be adapted to your different sounds. Usually a big mixer won't have too much of a problem with an extra 2 or 4 or more keyboard feeds, so if it is not about you as the keyboard player controlling the main mix, it might pay to send out more than just a stereo sub-mix.

Digital instruments would probably be most logically digital audio synced and digitally mixed, maybe sent through a network cable to monitors and main PA, but not all instruments and effect units allow this.

 

A couple of $500 Yamaha MG16's wouldn't hurt the sound and be plenty flexible for a lot of applications, but the analog path allows no external mix control. And somehow you'll have to figure out if the mains system requires you to have a DI going to the main mixer in with line drive outputs or group outputs.

 

T.