KB3 -- how bad is it?

[Tom Williams]

Disclaimer: the only tonewheel organ I have ever owned was a junky Hammond spinet.

 

Over at the Mastering VAST site, I recently read for the umpteenth time the lament that the Kurzweil KB3 engine sends the percussion through the C/V effect on the way to the Leslie.  And for the umpteenth time, the tone of the posting was something I would normally expect only if someone defecated on a church altar.

 

What's interesting to me is that everyone (in my neck of the woods) who hears me play KB3 organ thinks it's the bomb.  I only use a single leslie (parameters courtesy of BillW) in my effects and it sounds glorious to my ears.  And my bandmates' ears.  And the folks at church.  

 

Perhaps it's due to my taking a hint from Emerson and generally running the percussion as short as possible, which would minimize the C/V obviousness; or perhaps because I was tainted at an early age by Farfisa organs, but my questions ('Bout time you got around to that, Tom) are:

 

• For a workstation, is the KB3 organ really that inferior?  Do y'all actually go "eewww" when you hear it? 
• Do other workstations, e.g., Korg, blow it away for day-to-day playing?
• Does anyone besides me actually like the sound of KB3 organ?

[ElmerJFudd]

If you need a workstation for your gigs the KB3 can do a great job, as can CX3, YC and VR engines.   Dialing in the sound you need and playing it well always makes the difference.  The weakest part on them all is the Leslie simulation and for that you can use a ventilator.  The newer do it all boards like the YC might be good enough for your needs.  In a night, how much organ are you playing and is it featured?  
 

Side note, all of those instruments can be supplemented with a laptop to run B3x, or VB3, Blue, B5, etc. if organ is a priority either way.  Unless you’re hot for the latest dedicated clone like Legend or XK5 with an actual Leslie.  
 

Side side note: MAG organs just throw a Ventilator in the case.  Done. 

[JamPro]

So C'mon - be a keyboard pal and tell us what those Leslie parameters you use are.

[Tom Williams]

1 hour ago, JamPro said:

So C'mon - be a keyboard pal and tell us what those Leslie parameters you use are.

I'll gladly do so if Bill says it's okay.  It's his work -- he A/B'd it with a Vent or a Real Leslie or such, until they sounded the same. 

 

[AnotherScott]

Actually, to me, the worst thing about KB3 (and not fixable by using an external rotary sim) is probably the key click. But some of these complaints are peculiar to how we use the instrument. Percussion going through CV doesn't bother me, because I pretty rarely use CV, and when I do, I'm probably not using percussion. But key click is an essential part of the character to me. But another player might say they don't like key click in general, and minimize its use no matter what clone they use, but the CV+percussion sound is critical to them!

[ProfD]

The KB3 isn't It's bad at all if it sounds good to you as the musician. 

 

There's countless examples of worshipped musicians using instruments and sounds others would consider *bad*. 

 

As always, unless there a technical difficulty, it's not the gear...it's how the musician uses it. 😎

 

 

[Stokely]

I've done many a classic rock gig with it on my PC3, and in multitrack gig recordings it sounded good.

However, after I had a VR700, then an electro, and now B-3X on an ipad--it was tough going back when I tried KB3 from my Forte.   The overdrive and leslie in general just don't compare well to those, especially B-3X which I personally rate as the best organ sim I've ever played by a fair margin.   My bandmates and sound engineers have been astonished that a dang tablet can make a sound like that!  I bought a Lester K pedal because I anticipated doing some gigs with the Forte alone, and made a program with the b3 going out of the alternate outputs (a very nice feature of that keyboard).   The Lester K is a cheaper alternative to the Vent, and probably isn't as good, but I thought it sounded a fair bit better than the Forte's built-in leslie.  Definitely a more "warm" and pleasing overdrive, and generally a very different tone.


I very rarely use percussion or C/V for that matter so none of that bothers me.

[Delaware Dave]

Sounds like you read my posting from yesterday in the Godlike forum!  I play my B3/122 about 5 days/week so that is the sound stuck in my head.  KB3 'tone' is actually not that bad, if you run the organ through a tube leslie it a pretty good representation of the sound.  For me (the purist) where it breaks down is the leslie, the C/V and how they route the percussion through the C/V.  Keyclick I like subtle as my B3's is rather subtle so I set KB3's the same way so its sound isnt an issue for me. Kurzweil's improvements to the organ in the past 10 years has been the polyphony section, meaning the newest keyboards the organ engine is dedicated and steals no 'voices'.  If the keyboard supports 128 voices then even when using the organ, the non-organ sounds still have 128 voices availlable.  What they havent addressed in 10 years is:

 

- Percussion routing through the C/V which causes wobbly percussion

- Improve the C/V circuitry.  I end up using C1 or C2 because C3 sounds terrible and unauthentic

- The leslie sim is under par

- Single manual KB3 organ only, meaning you still cant run dual manual organ because the MARA chip doesnt support KB3 running on more than one manual.  The only way to get dual manual or a split upper/lower manual is to use Vast organs as opposed to KB3 organ as the 2nd manual organ. The VAST organs arent that bad sounding except that they are not phased locked like the KB3 organs are.  Fortunately because I use them on the lower manual I can mask the phase lock issue.

 

Small or fast gigs (and band practice) I use KB3 and it works.  Earlier in the summer during a practice we did 'She Talks to Angels'.  The bass player commented how good the organ sounded.  He said the organ sounded just like the organ in the song.

 

So to answer your question it's not that bad but it has its quirks that Kurz should have addressed over the last 10 years but has elected not to.  Fortunately you can run the organ out the auxilliary outs and into an external leslie sim and get a decent sound. If I didnt have a B3/122 to compare to the quirks probably would bother me less.

 

[Tom Williams]

52 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

Sounds like you read my posting from yesterday in the Godlike forum!

 

Yep!  I didn't want to sully your reputation by naming you here. 🙂

[Moonglow]

I gigged with a PC-3x for many years but didn’t use KB3 all that much because I had a Voce V5. I thought KB3 was substantially improved when they came up with the “Double Leslie.” Not bad at all, and there was a stock program with this effect I thought worked well for rock music. I agree with Delaware Dave that the overall tone is pretty good. It has a “greezyness” about it. I tried it with my Ventillator once or twice for shitz and giggles and thought it sounded great.

[time4jazz]

When I got my PC4-7, I went through all the KB3 programs and found some that were okay, some marginal, and some unplayable.  I started with the okay ones and made the very helpful changes (e.g., mellow setting on the tonewheel page) recommended by someone on this forum (my apologies, but I can’t remember who), along with some other minor tweaks, and got a couple of pretty nice sounding B3s (not that I’m anything close to an expert!).  Since the KB3 is clearly capable, it’s surprising (to me, at least) that Kurzweil doesn’t ship these keyboards with better sounding B3s right out of the box.

[Shamanzarek]

I'm sure Kurzweil has improved KB3 over the years. My first experience was with the PC2/X. When I first used it with the band the factory KB3 sounds were so thin and weak that they were unusable. Before returning the keyboard I tried some tweaking and was able to beef up the KB3 sounds to where they were usable. The Percussion was plinky and sounded nothing like a real Hammond. I had a friend at the time who also had a PC2 and told me he never used KB3 because it sounded so bad. I told him what to do to fix the sounds. Due to KB3 and a Classic Keys ROM issue I never bought another Kurzweil though I'm sure they are much better now.

[marczellm]

I second the notion that the factory presets can be much much improved.

I think the KB3 is one of the best options for layering or use "inside" some arrangement, but I would probably never use it on its own for some organ centruc ELP etc. sort of music.

[Meta]

Confession: I've played ELP B3 parts w/KB3 on a PC361.

 

Even worse, I would do it again!

 

It sounded great and was enjoyable (even when hanging on by my fingernails to pull it off). Also, the PC361 action is great for B3 playing and I appreciate having the B3 controls on the panel.

 

Additional confession: I played the Moog parts on a Prophet 600. In mono mode w/12 oscillators stacked. Also sounded great. 

 

Despite all our naval gazing, despite everyone having their favorite sounds and particular hangups, we are spoiled for tools that are generally more than adequate.

 

Once you're reasonably in the ballpark (and Kurzweil PC3/4/etc. are very programmable if you want to tweak), a big part is the player and performance.

 

I do enjoy playing an actual B3 when the opportunity presents itself (even if each B3 might sound slightly different), and I enjoyed having a Leslie in one of my bands early on. But the reality is that unless I have a crew of roadies or a supplied backline, I'm not taking a B3/Leslie to gigs -  and I don't want the upkeep headaches of maintaining that kind of rig. 

 

So I'll use my PC3 or PC4, or my laptop rig, or even my stripped down iPhone rig and enjoy the results. And I appreciate that others get great results from various other B3 clone options.

 

BTW I played the laptop rig at Red Rocks Amphitheater with a funk band, using Logic's included B3/Leslie emulation. It sounded glorious bouncing off of the rocks.

[ProfD]

14 minutes ago, Meta said:

Despite all our naval gazing, despite everyone having their favorite sounds and particular hangups, we are spoiled for tools that are generally more than adequate.

 

Once you're reasonably in the ballpark (and Kurzweil PC3/4/etc. are very programmable if you want to tweak), a big part is the player and performance.

QFT.  It definitely helps to maintain perspective.😎

[CyberGene]

Edit: I moved it to its own thread.

[Delaware Dave]

1 minute ago, CyberGene said:

I thought about creating another thread but it's not entirely offtopic to this one, so I'll ask here. I've been listening to a lot of Pink Floyd recently (including Gilmore's solo albums) and thought I would like to create a similar sound in some of my compositions for a project. I've noticed there's often some rather mild Hammond organ sound in the background but to me it doesn't sound like something very prominent, rather soft with no solos or melody lines, only chords that either support/double the other harmonic instruments or playing solo chords (still no impros or solo lines) for a brief moment with Leslie on and off. I don't have a clue about Hammond sound and specifics and since I see people here really after serious Hammond emulations, my question goes: if I just use my Yamaha CP88 Hammond with the rotary effect on and off, would you notice it? 😀 I mean, I have no ears or knowledge about the Hammond sound at all and to me it sounds like good enough but was wondering if any of you hear the CP88 Hammond (or any other rompler Hammond for that matter), would you think: ughhh, that's unacceptable/nasty/cheesy/ugly...? 😱

You should start a new topic.  You are now talking about using the CP88; forumites who have no interest in KB3 may not even read this topic; you'll get better coverage with your own topic of CP88 organ and Pink Floyd songs.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Disclaimer as well - I've never owned, nor played, a real Hammond/Leslie. My PC3 was my first keyboard with any sort of Hammond engine; most of my experience with KB3 is from my PC4 though as the PC3's been out of service for a few years. I thought it was pretty decent, though the presets could be improved with some mild editing. I really liked the KB3 overdrive in particular.

 

Then I got my Fantom 7. While it isn't a dedicated Hammond clone either, its VTW/Virtual ToneWheel engine was a significant improvement over KB3, at least to me. I liked the basic drawbar tone better, the Leslie sim better, and, in particular, the C/V was much more to my liking. After using that for some gigs, I tried to go back to the KB3 for single-board gigs, and found I didn't really care for the KB3 sound anymore - the basic tone was duller and the C/V was over the top and warbly, no matter the setting. The Leslie seemed much more warbly and honky than I remembered. It was odd, given how happy I was with it before. I do still think the KB3 overdrive is better than the Fantom VTW, which seems a little on the thin/bright side. All this said, I do still think that KB3 is better than Korg's CX3 engine (though admittedly I haven't spent a ton of time with that), definitely better than any of Yamaha's workstation efforts (YC-series excluded). I'd even say that I prefer KB3 over Nord's tonewheel engine in many ways. But the Fantom VTW was a noticeable improvement over KB3 IMO.

 

I will say that it seemed to me that the PC3's version of KB3 was better than the PC4's version; but I've never had the two together to do a proper comparison, so who knows.

[AnotherScott]

On 8/12/2022 at 6:52 PM, Mighty Motif Max said:

Then I got my Fantom 7. While it isn't a dedicated Hammond clone either, its VTW/Virtual ToneWheel engine was a significant improvement over KB3, at least to me. I liked the basic drawbar tone better, the Leslie sim better, and, in particular, the C/V was much more to my liking. After using that for some gigs, I tried to go back to the KB3 for single-board gigs, and found I didn't really care for the KB3 sound anymore - the basic tone was duller and the C/V was over the top and warbly, no matter the setting. The Leslie seemed much more warbly and honky than I remembered. It was odd, given how happy I was with it before. I do still think the KB3 overdrive is better than the Fantom VTW

 

I agree that Kurz does the overdrive better than Roland, and most others for that matter. 

 

On 8/12/2022 at 6:52 PM, Mighty Motif Max said:

I will say that it seemed to me that the PC3's version of KB3 was better than the PC4's version; but I've never had the two together to do a proper comparison, so who knows.

 

For anyone else following this, you and I subsequently discussed this in another thread, that some of the PC4 KB3 sounds (and other sounds) are actually programmed differently than the identically named sounds in the PC3! Luckily, if you like the PC3 versions better, you can download them and load them into the PC4. I found that sometimes I liked the PC3 version better and sometimes I liked the PC4 version better. (See https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/172408-kurzweil-pc4/page/24/#comment-2911049  )

 

Now, whether the identical patch sounds different on a PC4 than it did on a PC3 remains an interesting question, which we wouldn't be able to determine without having those boards next to each other and  playing the exact same patch on both. I'm not aware that anyone has done that (or at least posted the results).

 

On 8/6/2022 at 10:29 AM, Delaware Dave said:

So to answer your question it's not that bad but it has its quirks that Kurz should have addressed over the last 10 years but has elected not to. 

 

Revisiting this thread today, that post reminded me of this other recent post I liked in a related thread. "Elected not to" makes it sound like they choose to ignore shortcomings (out of apathy, incompetence, whatever), but that's an assumption that may not be justifiable, e.g. there could be architectural hurdles that make it impossible to properly fix some things, or at least without a total ground-up reworking, even if the changes seem obvious and trivial from the outside. And just saying it should have a "better" something (C/V, Leslie) pre-supposes that developers can define exactly what's not working so well and why, and also have some clue as to how to improve it, within the architecture and tools they have to work with. Maybe they don't see a problem, maybe they see it and don't know how to do it better within the available parameters they must work within, but either way, it's not necessarily the "we know it's bad and we don't care" that saying they "elected not to fix" would seem to imply.

 

 

[Delaware Dave]

Whatever Dude ....

[CEB]

Gear is overrated.  KB3 is absolutely perfectly fine. 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Delaware Dave said:

Whatever Dude ....

Well, they do call these discussion boards. ;-)

[Al Coda]

On 8/10/2022 at 6:50 PM, Meta said:

So I'll use my PC3 or PC4, or my laptop rig, or even my stripped down iPhone rig and enjoy the results. And I appreciate that others get great results from various other B3 clone options.

 

BTW I played the laptop rig at Red Rocks Amphitheater with a funk band, using Logic's included B3/Leslie emulation. It sounded glorious bouncing off of the rocks.

 

The main drawback of KB3 is,- it´s a single manual organ engine only.

I accepted the PC3´s DSP power wasn´t enough to realize a virtual upper- and lower- manual engine, flip sliders between upper- and lower virtual drawbars and offering a better leslie sim and keyclick together w/ basic Aux FX.

 

But now, with the new FPGA and possible multiple of these in the circuitry, it should be possible to realize.

 

I´m sure we´ll see this sooner or later,- but might need the next flagship model.

 

And yes, Logic´s EVB3 is underrated !

A friend of mine,- pro keyboardplayer, M-100 and later B-3 player since the 60s and owner of a record company, he´s using EVB3 exclusively for his recordings and it sounds awesome.

He tweaked it to his demands and saved  as channelstrips together w/ other plugins in the chain.

 

He sold his B-3 some time ago and kept the Leslie 122 for quality recordings.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

 

 

[UnderGroundGr]

1 hour ago, Al Coda said:

 

And yes, Logic´s EVB3 is underrated !

A friend of mine,- pro keyboardplayer, M-100 and later B-3 player since the 60s and owner of a record company, he´s using EVB3 exclusively for his recordings and it sounds awesome.

He tweaked it to his demands and saved  as channelstrips together w/ other plugins in the chain.

 

He sold his B-3 some time ago and kept the Leslie 122 for quality recordings.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

 

 

 

Very nice sounding plugin, i have using this in my recordings for many year. Now i use arturia's B-3V, is very nice too!

I am still using 2600's KB3 through a Strymon Lex, very good combo for rock/hard rock sounds!

[Al Coda]

10 minutes ago, UnderGroundH said:

Now i use arturia's B3, is very nice too!

I am still using 2600's KB3 through a Strymon Lex, very good combo for rock/hard rock sounds!

 

IK Multimedia B3-X became my favourite,- so I´m using this and KB3,- the latter for special stuff I cannot achieve from B3-X because it lacks the necessary FX,- ring-mod p.ex..

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[Legatoboy]

Leslies are phasey (almost all of them) but the pure organ tone itself is not bad and pretty thick sounding! The Percussion retrigger doesn't work correctly of course also! The Chorus/Vibrato are 'ok'... I have used it in a pinch on smaller on keyboard gigs, my buddy on the last gig I used it on asked me what was wrong with my usual Hammond sound though, that happened only once - using my SP6 ... it records OK though!      

 

[Delaware Dave]

4 hours ago, Al Coda said:

But now, with the new FPGA and possible multiple of these in the circuitry, it should be possible to realize.  I´m sure we´ll see this sooner or later,- but might need the next flagship model. 

☺️

A.C.

 

 

 

Essentially my gripe.  They've had two flagships since the release of the PC3; the Forte and the K2700.  The PC3 was released in 2008.  So they've had over a decade to analyze, develop and release better code to fix the issues (other than the dual manual issue).  

[Al Coda]

2 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

 

Essentially my gripe.  They've had two flagships since the release of the PC3; the Forte and the K2700.  The PC3 was released in 2008.  So they've had over a decade to analyze, develop and release better code to fix the issues (other than the dual manual issue).  

 

I guess, Young Chang is not always willing to financiate what the US based R&D team suggests.

By nature their interest is keeping all costs as low as possible and when the majority of customers around the globe is satisfied w/ their products, they prefer to do nothing as long as they can.

Most home users are satisfied when the piano sound is good and in musical´s orchestra pits, rockin´ Hammonds might be rarely used.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[stoken6]

15 hours ago, CEB said:

Gear is overrated.  KB3 is absolutely perfectly fine. 

This. A talented player such as Jim Alfredson can absolutely slay on KB3, as evidenced by his demo of the K2700.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Iconoclast]

IMHO Kurzweil needs to fix the GUI on their instruments before they spend another penny on how they sound. Their keyboards sound and feel great and although I have better alternatives to KB3 in my studio, I'd happily use KB3 at a gig. I doubt the audience would notice a thing. I absolutely love their pianos and EPs, but if I can't get the sound I need out of one of the standard programs, I don't even try.

Since editing programs in VAST is so difficult, I only edit in multi-mode (which I find to be pretty easy and very powerful). For everything else you basically need a Phd in VAST for and I'm unwilling to commit that time when I can get much faster results from other VST's and instruments. Right now I only use my Forte for one of my acts. Everything else I've switched to Mainstage/Nord. It's a shame because I think the Forte is in most ways a better sounding and more powerful instrument.

The one thing I find silly is that you can't run 2 instances of KB3 in a multi. I know you can run a VAST organ and KB3 simultaneously, but it's a waste of time. I can program the same thing on the Nord or a VST in literally no time, and as others have noted above, the VST B3's sound excellent.