Can Motion Sound KP series "compete" with loud drums and guitar amps?

[ABECK]

For gigs where there is no "real" PA (e.g., bar gigs, small clubs), I'm looking for a solution to provide enough volume to compete with loud guitars and drums, but not sound shitty at high volumes.  I'm currently using a Bose L1 compact, which is great as a personal monitor when there is a real FOH system, but on those occasions where the L1 is my only amplification, it can't keep up without distorting (especially on piano and synth - organ actually sounds ok).  I know there are a lot of powered cab options (QSC, et al), but I'm particularly interested in the Motion Sound KP series.  The dual sprk, angled design and power in a single package are appealing.  However, given my needs, I can't really tell which is ideal, the 500s, 610s or 612s.  I don't kick bass and I try to stay out of the Bass player's territory, so I don't know if the 12" speakers are necessary.  Any thoughts on the better option?

[jeffincltnc]

Definitely yes if the gig is playing a lot of Rhodes along with a compact guitar amp like a JC40, it sounds great.

 

If it's two guitarists dueling it out with their Marshall stacks and a drummer kicking Alex Van Halen double bass drums all night.... well.... you know what my answer is already.

[synthizen2]

Even in small bar rooms and clubs... if the drums and guitar are still LOUD, you will probably best be served by running your sound through a conventional PA system, or at least a pair of your own powered cabs (JBL, QSC, EV, etc.).

 

If, on the other hand, you are in a small space with an acoustic, semi-acoustic, or jazz trio band (or similar) with quiet drums... Then these lower powered alternatives for keyboards can come into play. 

 

I don't know a whole lot about Bose and Motion Sound systems... but from personal experience dealing with other bands' sound systems on double-billed shows that we do, they don't deliver very well in standard 'loud band' situations, even in small spaces.

[NosPup]

I use the KP-408 in a fairly loud rock band.  My keys go through a Key Largo and then into the MotionSound, but i have tons of head room. I'm probably running the Master at around 65% max and the channel volume at 65% max and still have plenty of volume for mid-sized rooms.  For these setups I keep it low to the ground so it doesnt blow me away.  I assume it would be somewhat less without the Key Largo as a pre-amp.  For a really large room you'd definitely want to go through a PA, but the MotionSound can get obnoxiously loud if you want.  Even with the 408, i tend to roll off the bass eq a bit to stay away from the bass player.

[Al Quinn]

I've used the KP-610S on gigs without going through the PA. The amp has been loud enough for most of the gigs I've done (i.e., classic rock, blues, R&B). I did one gig that had two guitarists and the volume got out of control, plus it was outdoors. For that the gig the KP-610S wasn't loud enough.

[Noah DC]

I play in loud bands with a KP-612s, and while it's certainly possible that I lack the imagination, I honestly cannot foresee a situation where the amp is not loud enough. It is literally two 12" speakers, blasting out into the room just like a PA would. I just don't ever even come close to maxing out this amp. 

[Al Quinn]

I had an outdoor gig on Saturday. Because it was outdoors I had to push the amp a bit and it delivered nicely. Here's some video from someone in the audience that I saw on FB. I'm not going through the PA. It's just my amp and I think it projected well in this setting. Plus the second half of the video was taken from the opposite side of the band from me and I can still hear the keys fine. There's a electric piano solo and organ solo somewhere in the middle of the tune. Note to self: practice playing a I IV V blues in B because that was out of my comfort zone!

 

https://www.facebook.com/100004668997694/videos/427689342636612/

 

[Al Quinn]

Having just read Noah DC's post I realize that it's possible it was me and not the amp that couldn't keep on the gig with two guitarists. I don't wear earplugs and it's possible I just wasn't up to pushing the volume as far was needed to remain balanced in the mix on that gig.

[ABECK]

How do you like it on acoustic piano?  Rhodes and Hammond sound just fine.

 

[Noah DC]

I honestly love this amp. Got mine from another forumite after watching Al's video. To me, the acoustic pianos sound great - I am generally playing a CP4 into it, though I recently tried my new Numa X Piano 73 at a gig and it sounded excellent as well. My guess is that folks who haven't heard these Motion Sound amps don't realize the extent to which they sound and operate nearly identical to two powered speakers and a mixer.

[Al Quinn]

49 minutes ago, ABECK said:

How do you like it on acoustic piano?  Rhodes and Hammond sound just fine.

 

APs sound very good to me. I made this video awhile back because others on the forum were asking the same question.

 

I used the KP-610S on my last jazz gig, rather than using the pair of RCF TT08As. My choice was driven by the convenience of the setup and schlep but it had to sound good too (which it did). If I was 10 years younger I might have bought the KP-612S instead but I'm very happy with my choice.

 

Perhaps it's worth mentioning that I have no affiliation with Motion Sound.

 

 

 

[ABECK]

Dare I say, I prefer the Motion Sound audio in that example.

[Al Quinn]

Sure, I think that’s the advantage of a comparison video over just having to go with someone else’s opinion 😎

[ProfD]

No shortage of threads around here discussing the loudness war i.e. KB players having enough amplification to compete with guitars and other instruments. 

 

Regardless of whether the venue is a bar, small club or restaurant, etc., a band should not being competing for volume. 

 

In fact, to best present the music, the band should control their dynamics and play at a volume where everyone can hear each other and themselves.

 

If the guitar player or drummer or whoever is comfortable drowning out the KBs, the KB player should be asking why they're even on the gig.

 

Whether using a PA system or personal amplification, KB players do yourselves a favor and play in situations that value your contribution.  Don't be a side piece. 😎

[ABECK]

20 minutes ago, ProfD said:

., a band should not being competing for volume. 

 

Totally agree.  And I've been lucky, as most gigs over the last decade or two I've had either venues with great sound, or other musicians that weren't interested in losing their hearing.  IMHO, it ALWAYS starts with the drummer.  I don't want to tell anyone how to do their job, but, shit, read the room.  I don't know about anyone else here, but when I have to turn up to the point of distortion, my playing is all over the place.  I hate that.

[ProfD]

11 minutes ago, ABECK said:

IMHO, it ALWAYS starts with the drummer.  I don't want to tell anyone how to do their job, but, shit, read the room. 

Exactly.  It might even require a conversation with the other band members.  Yo...let's play together on this song.🤣

 

Sometimes the best thing to do is turn down instead of turning up.  Playing with dynamics is even better. 😎

[Stokely]

Yeah, glad I'm out of the volume wars.   Even our sound company gigs I'm pretty comfy wearing IEMs, as all of them give me control of my mix via app.

We frankly wouldn't be able to turn up amps at our gigs even if we wanted to.  Many of them, and some of the best-paying ones anyway.   So rather than have different rigs for different venues, we all go direct and can play at 10 db or 150.  Except, we still have acoustic drums, so it's a balancing act.  He has to use special sticks at a couple of our restaurant gigs.   I haven't done a gig without a PA (either ours, or provided) in at least 8 years...and the one I recall was some multi-band benefit thing where only vocals was in a really old and small PA.

 

[Tusker]

5 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

Having just read Noah DC's post I realize that it's possible it was me and not the amp that couldn't keep on the gig with two guitarists. I don't wear earplugs and it's possible I just wasn't up to pushing the volume as far was needed to remain balanced in the mix on that gig.

I had this experience also and the earplugs freed me to be just as assertive as a very loud guitar player.
 

One thing else to note when rolling your own amplification is that height and directionality can matter. Sometimes a guitar player will place an amp on the floor which is knee height to the guitar player but head height to the audience. Sounds soft to the band. The keyboardist may judge volumes based on a mounted speaker partly aimed across stage. Keyboard volume is high to everyone in the band but doesn’t reach the audience. Not that this ever happened to me. <blush> 😅

[KuruPrionz]

5 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

Having just read Noah DC's post I realize that it's possible it was me and not the amp that couldn't keep on the gig with two guitarists. I don't wear earplugs and it's possible I just wasn't up to pushing the volume as far was needed to remain balanced in the mix on that gig.

I played electric lead guitar in a local band for 6 years. At a certain point I started bringing smaller amps and playing at lower volumes. 

The BL was also an excellent lead singer and acoustic guitarist, we were 2 guitars, bass and drums. BL liked his monitor loud because the drummer was loud, I told him I didn't need a monitor (I mostly sang backup and a few lead vocals) because his was loud enough. 

Near the end of my run, when I started realizing that I just didn't want to keep doing this, the BL came up to me mid-gig and quietly told me that the other two guys could not hear me and maybe I could turn up a bit. I didn't do it, we had the PA dialed in already and I didn't want to be louder. I kept it to myself but I thought "Maybe they could just turn the hell down?".

I didn't last much longer, gave a reasonable notice so they could find somebody else and we've all remained good friends but now I don't play out. I was overdue for a break, not sure what's next but it won't be loud. There's just no reason for it. 

[Konnector]

Can't count the number of times I yelled at the guitar player to turn down. Most times though, it wasn't at a gig, but at band practice. (I would never yell at a band member in a live situation.) I prefer to hear everything comfortably as opposed to duking it out in a volume war, but it happens once in a while. I had ample power available just in case. The stages we played on were usually large enough that the guitarist was far away from me and I'd actually need some guitar fed through the stage monitors to hear him. 

[Stokely]

Yeah, most of my truly awful loud experiences have been at practices.  It's really kind of stupid to hear better at gigs than you can at practice...

Thinking back to all the years of sitting in small rooms with loud drummers and loud amps makes me cringe...and here's the thing my current band has realized:  when you are learning a song, you don't need to be loud!  Have the drummer play a chair cushion while the rest of you play at conversation levels while you work out the changes and endings.  Turn it up when you have it down, if you feel you need to.  How many times have people blown past the start of the bridge and you can't even get anyone's attention because it's 110 db in there....just dumb!

[jpgxk3]

I have been using a KP 500sn for the last 5-6 years with no problem being heard by the band or audience. We are a fairly loud 6 piece and go with stage volume at most gigs, singer blows harp and provides  a decent PA, no subs. He will mix in the sax, guitar, 3 vocal mics, and drums at a modest level for a little bump up. Sometimes I'll jump on there too, but usually not as it's crowded in my opinion. I use either my SK-1 or Mojo -61 into a Ventilator 2 and I am very happy with the levels, size of amp, and ease of moving it around. I did buy an amp stand that I use on occasion if I want to project a bit above the din sometimes, but it's another thing to drag along and really not necessary. I found a nice level of eq settings and run the channel and master volume pots at 3:00 position; about 75%. Have never had to bury the expression pedal or go louder than that. No one player in the band is a volume problem; we're on the same page playing at a healthy level. Hope that helps. Joe.

[Delaware Dave]

I've been playing in bands since the 80's and one of the bands I'm in is without question the loudest band I've ever been involved in.  Two guitar players both with 100 watt tube amps into 4x12 cabinets. The volume is ear piercing.  That band only  mics the vocals (which no one can hear) and the drums.The bass player has a 1200 watt amp and also isnt mic'd.  To keep up i have to dime my EV; it actually does keep up (which surprises me) and people i know tell me that they can hear the keys (which validates that i can be heard).  The problem is that my own keyboard amp behind me punishes me because i sit and play and the speaker is ear level when placed on its stand.  I play in mono and one speaker does the job but again kills me.  So i've been bringing a 2nd speaker and putting it in front of my rig.  I can then turn down the speaker behind me which keeps the stage volume down but still get to the crowd.  The true answer obviously is to mic the keys but they can never seem to get the keys right and i never can be heard through the mains. So i control my own volume this way.  I only mention this story because the Motion Sound will keep up but the volume behind you is killing, if you need to go this route consider two speakers, one behind you at a reasonable level and one in front of you to project to the crowd.  Obviously micing the rig is the best way to go.

[ABECK]

Good thoughts Delaware Dave.  Thankfully I'm not in THAT bad of a scenario (If I were, I'd insist on going through the PA, with a powered monitor for myself).  Otherwise, I'd tell them - this ain't a gig for me.

 

[Al Quinn]

That sounds like a good solution for your situation Delaware Dave. Fortunately, most of my gigs when I'm not going through the PA are at a reasonable volume. I only had one bad volume experience in recent years and I haven't (and won't) play with that group again. 

[synthizen2]

23 hours ago, Noah DC said:

My guess is that folks who haven't heard these Motion Sound amps don't realize the extent to which they sound and operate nearly identical to two powered speakers and a mixer.

 

I am not questioning the sound quality of these keyboard amps, they're probably very good.

The issue I run into with them, is that they often don't have a long enough "throw". 

Often the sound will not reach to the back of a large room if you're not also hooked into the PA.

 

[ProfD]

40 minutes ago, synthizen2 said:

The issue I run into with them, is that they often don't have a long enough "throw". 

Often the sound will not reach to the back of a large room if you're not also hooked into the PA.

If a room is that large and/or a PA system is being used, a KB amp should only serve as a monitor.  It should not have to carry the room.

 

Using a KB as a monitor/main in a large room only makes sense for solo gigs and/or a band setting without a volume war. 

 

PA systems were invented to balance the sound and project it over distance.

 

Nowadays, a "vocals only" PA is ridiculous.  Back when affordable mixers were limited to 8 channels it made sense to use it for vocal mics.

 

A brand new, 22-channel mixer can be bought for less than $1k now.  Everything can be run through it.  Stage monitors or IEMs can sort out the rest.

 

From a technological perspective, I find it amusing that musicians and bands approach live music as if it's still the 1970s.😁😎

[Stokely]

We don't have bands around here doing no PA gigs, as I say the only time I've seen one in 10 years with my current band is at a benefit jam.    I'd think you might get big amps at jams or other things where there isn't time to really come up with a plan for monitoring.

 

Delaware Dave's situation sounds like hell on earth to me--not one but TWO guitarists with big amps!--then again I know some people that say they'd quit gigging if they had to go to "silent stages".     We all have our hills to die on!

My most dreaded gig used to be at a joint where the owner had his own PA, amps and drum kit and wanted bands to use it while he ran sound.  I would get blasted by tube amps and not ones I was playing; these days it's still a down and dirty bar but we bring own own mixer (which means, my iems) and connect it to his main speakers, WAY better   I guess he got tired of running sound, thankfully.

[Bob Murray]

hi!
hey how is the noise on these guys (quiescent hiss, dirty power rejection, etc etc)?

I have a V3 spacstaion and, well it really isn't very good in that respect 
and sometimes I do sort of "acoustic replacement" type things where the hiss isn't appreciated

[Al Quinn]

For soft to moderate volume the 610S is quiet, but if I turn the master and channel volumes up to 10 I can hear some hiss.