Is it still worth getting a Kronos in 2022?

[drawback]

1 hour ago, TJ Cornish said:

I’ve long argued that the holy grail of keyboards is for every patch to sound the same in Combi mode as it does in patch mode. With the Fantom that’s true - with the effects fully allocated, you don’t have to scratch your head why a sound sounds great in patch mode but sucks in Combi mode.

I’ve noticed that head-scratcher on the Kronos. Even though I set up the exact same fx in a combination, the program in program mode just sounds better - cleaner. Memory allocation? I dunno.

[mcgoo]

11 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

I don’t have much personal Nord experience, other than probably an inappropriate disdain of the brand due to the large number of “me too” people in the church world that just HAVE to have the $5000 red thing because that’s what’s on the worship videos, and then they plug it into a MacBook.  

 

Good thing I didn't hand a mouth full of beer or coffee when I read that. Would've drenched my phone. Every single worship video has a Note Stage and a MacBook.... and the patches for every song are ethereal pads and (maybe) Piano. Uggh. OK, back to the discussion at hand...

[AUSSIEKEYS]

12 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

 

I don’t have much personal Nord experience, other than probably an inappropriate disdain of the brand due to the large number of “me too” people in the church world that just HAVE to have the $5000 red thing because that’s what’s on the worship videos, and then they plug it into a MacBook.  

 

The Python team could sure have fun with that.

 

"Ive got the Holy Grail" 

 

"No ive got the Holy Grail!"

 

"NO thats a false PROPHET 5 mines the Holy Grail"

 

"Mines Red that surely has to be the Holy Grail"

 

 

Or Oprah said

 

"You get a RED keyboard" 

 

"You get a RED keyboard" 

 

"You get a RED keyboard"

 

And so it was done. 

[TJ Cornish]

11 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

 

Assuming you're talking about VA, I guess you're comparing the AL-1 engine on the Kronos to the non-model specific ZEN-Core VA programming on the Fantom (as opposed to comparing the MS-20 and Polysix engines on the Kronos to the Juno 106, Jupiter 8, JX-8P, and SH-101 models of the Fantom). I wonder if this could also be an example of the NS3/Kronos and Fantom-0/PC4 comparisons that opened this post, where the raw Kronos engine might be deeper but the Fantom engine may be more accessible? From the synth side of things, there's also the variable of the other kinds of synthesis, i.e. that Kronos also has FM synthesis, and Fantom has n/zyme which I guess falls into the wavetable category...?

I’m coming at it from a “can I make useful sounds I need” perspective rather than “is it 100% true to some original”. On the Kronos, the envelops work the way I expect them to, LFOs sync the way I expect them to, and with 80 notes of polyphony of AN-1, it is usable in a combi setting with other layers going on.

 

On the Fantom, the LFOs are simply broken. I cannot understand why it is impossible to sync them to keyboard time. This drives me insane. I get a partial workaround if I’m willing to do a filter as an effect - that one does sync to keyboard time, but it’s just not the same as having the synth engine work in a reasonable way. Also, the envelopes are not nearly as good as the AN-1 - fewer points, less intuitive. The boutique Jupiter/Juno stuff takes too many voices for me to use them for the way I work.

[TJ Cornish]

10 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

For the second of those two issues, all you have to do is hit the Chain button again. Shown in the first section of this video...

 

 

 

A librarian would be great. You're also casting light on another advantage Kronos' Set List has over Fantom's approach, which kind of splits the Set List page's function in two, yielding the Scene page and the Scene Chain page... Unless I've missed something, re-ordering the "slots" on a Scene page is a bit of a nightmare.

 

 

Scott - thank you - I learned something - I had never pushed the button again. That’s useful.

[TJ Cornish]

10 hours ago, drawback said:

I’ve noticed that head-scratcher on the Kronos. Even though I set up the exact same fx in a combination, the program in program mode just sounds better - cleaner. Memory allocation? I dunno.

The MFX/TFX are shared, which may have some impact. Also, when you do the copy program to combi function and choose include IFX, for some reason it sets the MFX sends to 100%, which on my keyboard are delay and reverb, respectively, so programs import very wet and bouncy.  

 

If you aren’t using the Copy from Program function in the top right drop down menu, try it - it should get you 95% of the way there.

 

Note that a lot of factory sounds have an unused IFX channel I think for the drum kit. You can unassign this and save a slot, which with several sounds adds up.

[stoken6]

10 hours ago, mcgoo said:

 Every single worship video has a Note Stage and a MacBook.... and the patches for every song are ethereal pads and (maybe) Piano. 

Why? Just... why? The whole "it's red, therefore it's best" thing baffles me - and I speak as a Nordist. 

 

Plus if you're going software, there are better controllers. 

 

Double plus - if you just want pad+piano, get a Privia or a Casiotone and save your money.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[mcgoo]

11 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

Why? Just... why? The whole "it's red, therefore it's best" thing baffles me - and I speak as a Nordist. 

 

Plus if you're going software, there are better controllers. 

 

Double plus - if you just want pad+piano, get a Privia or a Casiotone and save your money.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Probably best to not get me started or I'll totally detail this thread... I'll rant for an hour about how worship music has become so formulaic. Red is only one of the many ingredients of said formula. 

[AnotherScott]

10 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

On the Fantom...the envelopes are not nearly as good as the AN-1 - fewer points, less intuitive. 

The number of points looks identical to me... 5 levels, 4 times.

 

10 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

Scott - thank you - I learned something - I had never pushed the button again. That’s useful.

Yeah... the very first post I made after getting the Fantom-0 included this point, "One important thing to know that you wouldn't know by looking at the controls...is that double-clicking a button is often essential in being able to get where you're trying to go. (Also, shift-clicking it.)" Which actually was not the best way of putting it. But clicking something again after you've already clicked it, something you might not normally think to do, sometimes does something very useful. Besides the Chain button, the Zone View button and the program category buttons also do something with your first click, and then do something else when you click them again.

[Stokely]

I have noticed that same thing with my Kurzweil Forte--that at least some of the Programs change timbre/behavior when used in a Multi.  I don't think it's the FX chains being overused, because those Programs sound different when they are the only one in a Multi.   I suspect that some controller defaults differently (say for cutoff frequency) and I'd need to map this similarly in the Multi, but that's just a guess.  In any case, it's certainly annoying.   I don't think it's every Program either.

I haven't noticed this with my MODX, but it uses the philosophy of copying the parts in and not referring to an existing performance.  (by value and not by reference to use programming lingo!) which has its own set of drawbacks and advantages.

[Outkaster]

I swear to good this forum is an endorsement for Nord.  Comparing a Nord to  Kronos is like comparing a Cadillac to a Ferrari.

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, Outkaster said:

I swear to good this forum is an endorsement for Nord.

While there are a few Nord users on the forum, I don't get the impression it's being endorsed here. 

 

In fact, I'd imagine there are far more Yamaha, Roland and Korg users around here than anything else.  😎

[CEB]

With the exception of my Farfisa Compact I’ve never owned a red keyboard.  I want a lightweight piano and considered the Nord Piano but will probably support my local store and get something Yamaha or Roland.  But the Nords have this status thing where all the hot chicks will think I’m sexy if I play a Nord.  My wife won’t like that.  

[AnotherScott]

23 minutes ago, CEB said:

the Nords have this status thing where all the hot chicks will think I’m sexy if I play a Nord.  My wife won’t like that.  

I guess there's a reason your wife didn't marry a lead singer or guitarist.

[CEB]

My life is so boring.  I’ve only been with one woman.  I have no idea why she married me. She should have known better. We’ve known each other since 4th grade.  

[ProfD]

12 minutes ago, CEB said:

My life is so boring.  I’ve only been with one woman.  I have no idea why she married me. She should have known better. We’ve known each other since 4th grade.  

I beg to differ.  Reads like you and your wife were both smart people.  Made a connection early and stayed the course. 😁

 

It takes some folks decades to realize that so much in life is the same sh8t warmed up.  Then, there's exceptions...

 

No matter how I've tried to warm it up, Nord always feels cold to me.🤣😎

[Daddyg3042]

Thought I’d jump in here; I own both a Kronos 73 & an NS376.  

 

Have had the Kronos for 4-5 years now.  Got it for a Pink Floyd tribute band that has since run it’s course.  It served that purpose excellently.  Each song had its own combi, and I found it very intuitive setting them up.  With the ability to set splits anywhere you wish, it was became 2nd nature playing parts.  Given one can add written notes to the SetList menu, I could always take a quick look down to the screen to see how the combi was setup. I could easily sample in any part necessary and add it as well.  It sounded great in pretty much every circumstance I was in, whether through FOH, or through an amp.  While I was never thrilled with the APs, they're tweakable enough to get me mostly there.  The weighted action is decent, not my favorite, but not the worst thing I’ve played.  It looks good up on stage too.  I’m going to keep it around.

 

I bought the NS3 about a year ago for a couple reasons; I didn’t want to “ruin” the Kronos from constantly schlepping it all over the place, and it isn’t an easy carry.  My long time (13yrs) project is much more “guerilla” with our gigging.  We do tons of venues, indoor, outdoor, stage, no stage, large and tiny setup areas, etc.   Used to do so with a Kurzweil PC3 which was light and maneuverable and gave me a full palette of sounds, but sold that when I got the Kronos. I hated the PC3’s action.  The Kronos though proved difficult in these circumstances; tight playing areas/stages, chancy power, and to an extent, was like bringing a 50 cal machine gun to a knife fight.

The NS3 is definitely an easier schlepp.  While as long as the Kronos, it’s about a third less wide and 15-20 lbs. lighter; much more maneuverable on stage and in tight spaces.  I connect better with its APs & EPs than the Kronos….they seem to be more lively or something.  It’s not just the EQ on the patch, they just seem more “brilliant” than the Kronos.  I find the organs similar and given the dedicated drawbar function on the NS3, and sliders on the Kronos, they seem a pretty comparable playing experience. With the ability to load samples, it ticks off that box of my needs.  The NS3’s synth is adequate and certainly readily tweakable with all the controllers at your disposal, but I think I prefer the Kronos’ multi synth engine in dialing in the exactly sound I want to hear, and using the available controllers for tweaking.  The Nord’s weakest point is not being able to set up splits exactly where you want, and even though you can overlap, it’s not the same.  The Kronos’ set list menu is a huge advantage, plus the ability to view notes on both song particulars as well as keyboard setup info right on the screen. On the Nord, I jump back & forth between Live mode, program, and song; it’s not quite as straightforward as I found the Kronos.

 

So, not a Nord fanboy, but do like it pretty well.  It was way more about the general functionality in a lightweight package than the cache of a red keyboard.  I also still like and appreciate the Kronos.  It’s a wonderful machine, that hopefully I’ll have for a long time, especially now that I’m not beating it up so much.  

 

In the end, they’re tools; sometimes all you need is a ball pen hammer, sometimes a big ole mallet!

[AUSSIEKEYS]

9 hours ago, CEB said:

With the exception of my Farfisa Compact I’ve never owned a red keyboard.

 

Had a Vox Jaguar and always wanted a modern Red Keyboard simply because i liked the look but to be different too. (Had a roland AX1 because it was red) red was sparse in those pre Nord days. I simply hate the look of traditional black, grey, metalic or silver keyboards.

 

When the nords came out the colour astounded me but they didnt interest me until the Stage appeared as i was searching for a modern ensemble like keyboard something akin to what my old Korg Trident could do with instant split layerable access to 3 different synth areas but now played from a weighted keyboard as apposed to the Tridents synth action. This Nord Seemed perfect & looked red.

 

Enter First Nord Stage. I checked it out and upon playing retreated in disgust as the keyboard felt like i was playing 88 SLUGS.

 

Expensive slugs at that and at 18kg it wasnt what I considered lightweight. Going from a Quadrasynth Plus with synth feel (I think 15kg) but with full zoning ability i wanted weighted keys but lighter too so I instead bought a simple PX330 casio piano (11.5 kg). Although it wasnt the ensemble i wanted it felt like a piano and could be midied to any module. (My Alesis S4 modules for zoning or my nanosynth for real velcro to the top of the piano portable)

 

My want for red even made me consider painting the Casio to be different as Nords were thin on the ground anyway. l resisted that luckily as now it seems in my city its nothing but a sea of red. Red no longer states individuality. But was good brand recognition marketing on Nords behalf.

 

Playing those expensive slugs turned me off Nord for life although im guessing the keys feel better now. I actually can see what a versatile instrument it is and why its so appreciated but the fact they are everwhere scares me more. Hee hee

 

As Split Enz sings...

"When I'm walking on down the street 

I SEE RED, I SEE RED, I SEE RED"

 

Makes me feel that way hee hee

 

This is an interesting thread with the topic wandering. So I claim i can talk off topic on this thread as everyone else is.

[C.J. Lewis]

This is a great thread, folks - I appreciate the info. I, too; recently joined a tribute band (Journey) that I start playing with next weekend. I'm working through details on many songs I've 'played' for 30+ years, and am coming to appreciate Mr. Cain's live production capabilities (I'm guessing he has 4 hands sometimes?!)

 

I know how to get around most keyboards at a moderate level, but I am not a synth programmer. The Kronos 2 61 that I have has 4 out of the box Journey programs that work quite well for the iconic riffs. I'm working on programs for some of the deeper cuts: 'Ask the Lonely', 'Girl Can't Help It', 'Chain Reaction', etc., and they're proving more challenging.

 

Are any of you Kronos owners good at and willing to do some paid programming work for tunes that I'm stuck on? At this point, the tunes I mentioned above would be the first 3 needed. Interested to know costs for this.

 

Thanks so much!

[Moonglow]

13 hours ago, ivorycj said:

I'm working through details on many songs I've 'played' for 30+ years, and am coming to appreciate Mr. Cain's live production capabilities (I'm guessing he has 4 hands sometimes?!)

Well, Journey has been touring with two keyboard players over the past few years, so that would definitely meet the hand count. 

 

Is the Kronos 61 the only board you will be using for this gig? You may run out of real estate and/or have to do frequent program changes. I’d add an 88 DP to compliment the K61 (perhaps your CP88?). Jonathan does a lot of piano work on a V-Piano (which also triggers other sounds) while playing his Jupiter-80. 

[CEB]

3 hours ago, ivorycj said:

This is a great thread, folks - I appreciate the info. I, too; recently joined a tribute band (Journey) that I start playing with next weekend. I'm working through details on many songs I've 'played' for 30+ years, and am coming to appreciate Mr. Cain's live production capabilities (I'm guessing he has 4 hands sometimes?!)

 

I know how to get around most keyboards at a moderate level, but I am not a synth programmer. The Kronos 2 61 that I have has 4 out of the box Journey programs that work quite well for the iconic riffs. I'm working on programs for some of the deeper cuts: 'Ask the Lonely', 'Girl Can't Help It', 'Chain Reaction', etc., and they're proving more challenging.

 

Are any of you Kronos owners good at and willing to do some paid programming work for tunes that I'm stuck on? At this point, the tunes I mentioned above would be the first 3 needed. Interested to know costs for this.

 

Thanks so much!

 

You can try Francis.  He is good with the Kronos.  He can teach you to program or hire him to do some custom sounds or ... what you want made already be available in some of his sound collections.

 

https://www.narfsounds.com/

 

[Docbop]

Darrick Keels does a lot of gear deep dive videos on keyboards and talking to him part of what influenced my Kronos buying decision.    He just released this video on how he's started moving away from the Kronos.   I find his reasons he switched his main keyboard well thought out and might be of interest to this thread.