History of P.A.F. humbuckers and why they remain difficult to replicate

[KuruPrionz]

3 hours ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

I find that to be key in getting things 'just-right', along with string selection and general set-up.

Hell, everybody and their uncle's monkey across the internet bags on the hot, ceramic Gibson 500T and 496R humbuckers that came stock in my Les Paul; but I actually really like 'em, they work very well for my pick-less/fingerstyle approach.

Picking the right brand, type, and gauges of strings for this guitar, and then spending some time adjusting the pickups heights and pole-pieces, was very important for getting the results that I like. More than once, I've been asked what boutique or vintage PAF style humbuckers I put in that guitar to get it to sound so good; and when I told 'em what pickups they were, at least one person thought that I was lying, "holdin' out on" them... !  

In the end, tone is more about the fingers and the mind that makes the fingers move than anything else. We all make choices, strings, picks, pickup settings, amp, amp settings, our ideas of tone, our ideas of timing. If you hand me a guitar I sound like me, I'm certain (having heard it many times with others) that y'all sound just like you. 

[Larryz]

To really get a taste of why the 57 PAF Gibson humbuckers have set such a high historical bar and remain difficult to replicate, you have to plug them in direct to a Fender tube amp (Twin, Vibrolux, Deluxe Reverb, etc.).  Set the controls to high noon (5) except for the reverb (2 1/2) on the amp and set the 4 controls on the guitar to (7).  Now treat yourself to the clean sound.  You can change picks, strings, speakers, etc., and you will still get that clean sound.  Using the 3way, go to neck, both and bridge settings and you will get 3 distinct changes in tone (jazz, rock, country).  Then put the 3way in the middle and use just the 2 guitar volume settings to add more or less treble or bass.  Then leave it alone and play it as though it's an acoustic guitar (you can use a clean boost pedal at this point for leads) ...

 

This is just a description on how I have used the 57 PAF's for many years.  I have several guitars with different pups (Fender, Gibson, Taylor, etc.) with singles and humbuckers and I always find myself enjoying the 57 PAF's the most.  I really think hearing them at normal volume with no OD/Dist pedals through a clean amp is a convincing experience...then go ahead and let it rip with all the effects that meet up with your style (and genre) of playing... 😎

[KuruPrionz]

9 minutes ago, Larryz said:

To really get a taste of why the 57 PAF Gibson humbuckers have set such a high historical bar and remain difficult to replicate, you have to plug them in direct to a Fender tube amp (Twin, Vibrolux, Deluxe Reverb, etc.).  Set the controls to high noon (5) except for the reverb (2 1/2) on the amp and set the 4 controls on the guitar to (7).  Now treat yourself to the clean sound.  You can change picks, strings, speakers, etc., and you will still get that clean sound.  Using the 3way, go to neck, both and bridge settings and you will get 3 distinct changes in tone (jazz, rock, country).  Then put the 3way in the middle and use just the 2 guitar volume settings to add more or less treble or bass.  Then leave it alone and play it as though it's an acoustic guitar (you can use a clean boost pedal at this point for leads) ...

 

This is just a description on how I have used the 57 PAF's for many years.  I have several guitars with different pups (Fender, Gibson, Taylor, etc.) with singles and humbuckers and I always find myself enjoying the 57 PAF's the most.  I really think hearing them at normal volume with no OD/Dist pedals through a clean amp is a convincing experience...then go ahead and let it rip with all the effects that meet up with your style (and genre) of playing... 😎

Further proof of how different we all are!

As a guitar tech, I've played a huge variety of guitars / pickups. I've installed hundreds of pickups as well. 

You've found a tone you love and stayed there, that is a happy thing and I'm sure it sounds great. I've certainly played a range of Gibsons with a variety of Gibson, Duncan, Lawrence, DiMarzio and other passive pickups. I even had a cosmetically compromised genuine PAF pickup in the neck position of a Tele build, long ago and far away. I sold it like an idiot to an idiot and who knows where it is now. 

 

I don't recall any of them sounding "Bad" to be honest, even most of the humbucking copies that are out there, Schaller, Ibanez, etc. sound very good. 

Lots of boutique makers with their own versions of PAF pickups, Loller, Fralin, Bare Knuckles and so on. 

 

I'd go dollars to donuts that a comprehensive blindfold test using genuine vintage Gibson PAF pickups and 2 dozen replicas by different makers would result in a random vote for a variety of pickups, not a consensus. 

 

Conclusion being, it's great to be happy and love the pickups you use but there are probably LOTS of options that would make most everyone smile. 

 

My personal favorite for 2 humbucker guitars is to put an EMG HB (their humbucking shaped version of a P-bass sounding pickup that was made for Steinberger basses) in the neck and a lowered EMG 81 (their high output, midrange forward pickup) in the bridge. That combo has been in my 1986 Gibson ES-335 Studio since 1988 and they will stay. They sound so good that I see no reason to change, having tried just about everything that was available up to 2010 or so. 

 

Doesn't matter, everybody play what you like and enjoy making music!

[Caevan O’Shite]

14 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

If you hand me a guitar I sound like me, I'm certain (having heard it many times with others) that y'all sound just like you. 

THAT has been proven more than once when I was essentially forced to play a guitar and amp that I didn't necessarily like. One time in particular, for a few weeks or so (while my guitar was being repaired after a fall? I can't quite recall), I was using a borrowed and rather cold and bright sounding ESP/LTD with a "licensed by" Floyd Rose double-locking get-up and a Solid State Peavey head and closed-back 4x12 cab (Peavey? Yamaha?).

Now, I had put my favorite strings on it and spent some time on adjusting the pickups and general set-up, and a lot of time, too much time, trying to dial-in settings on that amp for a tone and response that I didn't entirely hate... and, I had a number of my favorite pedals at my feet, including my beloved Octron, a wah, a Leslie sim, echo... A video was posted on YouTube (now gone), and I got a lot of compliments on my tone, which cracked me up...

[KuruPrionz]

10 minutes ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

THAT has been proven more than once when I was essentially forced to play a guitar and amp that I didn't necessarily like. One time in particular, for a few weeks or so (while my guitar was being repaired after a fall? I can't quite recall), I was using a borrowed and rather cold and bright sounding ESP/LTD with a "licensed by" Floyd Rose double-locking get-up and a Solid State Peavey head and closed-back 4x12 cab (Peavey? Yamaha?).

Now, I had put my favorite strings on it and spent some time on adjusting the pickups and general set-up, and a lot of time, too much time, trying to dial-in settings on that amp for a tone and response that I didn't entirely hate... and, I had a number of my favorite pedals at my feet, including my beloved Octron, a wah, a Leslie sim, echo... A video was posted on YouTube (now gone), and I got a lot of compliments on my tone, which cracked me up...

I do know the feeling! We gotta play and we gotta play like we play. 

Here's a cut from a crappy recording of Roger Perry and The Trip with me on lead guitar. I had a RAT pedal and a Peavey LA 400 - 210 watts solid state and a 12" Black Widow speaker. Everybody's favorite tone combination!!!! ~Yuk!!~

 

I owned it, I used it, I got paid to damage everybody's hearing, including my own. 

https://metapop.com/opossum-apocalypse/tracks/01-ain39t-no-more-cane/175395

[Larryz]

9 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Further proof of how different we all are!

As a guitar tech, I've played a huge variety of guitars / pickups. I've installed hundreds of pickups as well. 

You've found a tone you love and stayed there, that is a happy thing and I'm sure it sounds great. I've certainly played a range of Gibsons with a variety of Gibson, Duncan, Lawrence, DiMarzio and other passive pickups. I even had a cosmetically compromised genuine PAF pickup in the neck position of a Tele build, long ago and far away. I sold it like an idiot to an idiot and who knows where it is now. 

 

I don't recall any of them sounding "Bad" to be honest, even most of the humbucking copies that are out there, Schaller, Ibanez, etc. sound very good. 

Lots of boutique makers with their own versions of PAF pickups, Loller, Fralin, Bare Knuckles and so on. 

 

I'd go dollars to donuts that a comprehensive blindfold test using genuine vintage Gibson PAF pickups and 2 dozen replicas by different makers would result in a random vote for a variety of pickups, not a consensus. 

 

Conclusion being, it's great to be happy and love the pickups you use but there are probably LOTS of options that would make most everyone smile. 

 

My personal favorite for 2 humbucker guitars is to put an EMG HB (their humbucking shaped version of a P-bass sounding pickup that was made for Steinberger basses) in the neck and a lowered EMG 81 (their high output, midrange forward pickup) in the bridge. That combo has been in my 1986 Gibson ES-335 Studio since 1988 and they will stay. They sound so good that I see no reason to change, having tried just about everything that was available up to 2010 or so. 

 

Doesn't matter, everybody play what you like and enjoy making music!

 

A lot of what I play these days is for backing my solo act vocals on rhythm guitar as opposed to my lead guitar playing days.  So, my clean tone concept is geared a little different than most.  I love playing all of my different guitars with different necks, fretboards, electric, acoustic electric, pups, nylon string, steel strings, etc. So even though I have a tone I favor, I'm sure I could never get a consensus in a blind folded test with the PAF's LOL!  As you say "it's great to be happy" though...

 

I do have 3 Strats with active EMG setups that have been in the closet for quite some time, but the batteries are changed and they are ready to haul out again and play. The double humbucker (double fat Strat) set up has an EMG 81 at the bridge (like your 335) and an EMG 80 at the neck, a 3way, 2 volume controls and 1 master tone control.  It's fun to compare it with the Gibson LP set ups and my other guitars...+1 having fun and enjoy making music is the name of the game!  😎👍

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, Larryz said:

 

A lot of what I play these days is for backing my solo act vocals on rhythm guitar as opposed to my lead guitar playing days.  So, my clean tone concept is geared a little different than most.  I love playing all of my different guitars with different necks, fretboards, electric, acoustic electric, pups, nylon string, steel strings, etc. So even though I have a tone I favor, I'm sure I could never get a consensus in a blind folded test with the PAF's LOL!  As you say "it's great to be happy" though...

 

I do have 3 Strats with active EMG setups that have been in the closet for quite some time, but the batteries are changed and they are ready to haul out again and play. The double humbucker (double fat Strat) set up has an EMG 81 at the bridge (like your 335) and an EMG 80 at the neck, a 3way, 2 volume controls and 1 master tone control.  It's fun to compare it with the Gibson LP set ups and my other guitars...+1 having fun and enjoy making music is the name of the game!  😎👍

If you have a Strat with all 3 single coils, try replacing one of the tone controls with an EMG SPC. It will fit and use the same battery. I leave my batteries in my guitars for a year or so, it's not a hungry little beast.

 

Both my Tele and my 2 pickup Franken Strat have one. Mr. O' Shite is a fan as well. 

With the spin of the knob, you can go from a Strat tone to a Les Paul tone, both clean. I use it instead of my volume knob to go from strum to howl. Kick on a bit of overdrive and it will sing like a bird. 

Plus, it can't turn your guitar all the way down so you can just flick it from one extreme to the other and back to playing. 

 

The cold hard fact is that the average Tele or Strat will out-sustain the average Les Paul. Kicking up the mids really makes a Fender a fun guitar!

[Larryz]

My 3 single coil David Gilmour EMG pre-wired Strat drop-in pickguard came stock with both the SPC Presence Control and the EXG Expander...the two tone pots were already omitted and replaced.  Very cool to play around with since I had them put in 2008. I had the back spring plate compartment routed on all 3 Strats so the batteries lay flat and can be easily changed without having to remove the whole pickguard... 😎👍

[Caevan O’Shite]

1 hour ago, KuruPrionz said:

If you have a Strat with all 3 single coils, try replacing one of the tone controls with an EMG SPC. It will fit and use the same battery. I leave my batteries in my guitars for a year or so, it's not a hungry little beast.

 

Both my Tele and my 2 pickup Franken Strat have one. Mr. O' Shite is a fan as well. 

With the spin of the knob, you can go from a Strat tone to a Les Paul tone, both clean. I use it instead of my volume knob to go from strum to howl. Kick on a bit of overdrive and it will sing like a bird.

True! I love the SPC. It's great with humbuckers, too; passive pickups as well as active EMG's and the like. Though I would still use my guitar's volume-knobs a lot, as well- it's just a big part of what I do, along with not using a pick. Anyway, the SPC is warm, natural, clear, fat 'n full, and variable from just little boost and subtle EQ shaping to an appreciable, useful volume and mid-boost with a good dose of PAF EQ character. With humbuckers, it's a "MORE!" boost. Sounds great clean or overdriven, or even with full-on high-gain distortion. I like it a lot more than the mid-boost that Fender put in the Eric Clapton sig-model Strats.

Over the years, on my recommendation, two or three members of the Guitar Forum here installed the SPC in their guitars, at least one with 'regular' passive pickups; everyone that did was extremely glad that they had and loved it!

Adding the EXG as well as the SPC is fantastic, too! I had that on a guitar, and probably will again.
 

 

1 hour ago, KuruPrionz said:

The cold hard fact is that the average Tele or Strat will out-sustain the average Les Paul. Kicking up the mids really makes a Fender a fun guitar!

Between my "touch", if you will, the inherent bit of compression from the amps and devices I use (though rarely a compressor!), and probably a little assistance from sound from the amp and speakers adding a touch of sustain from feedback, I have never seemed to have any lack of sustain, no matter what guitar I was using. It kinda freaked a friend of mine out when we were more or less still kids; he'd hand me his guitar, nothing would be changed, and I managed to have seemingly effortless sustain going and going whenever I wanted to hold a note or a chord... Good set-up, and 'clean' technique, go a long ways, figuratively and literally... !
 

[KuruPrionz]

46 minutes ago, Larryz said:

My 3 single coil David Gilmour EMG pre-wired Strat drop-in pickguard came stock with both the SPC Presence Control and the EXG Expander...the two tone pots were already omitted and replaced.  Very cool to play around with since I had them put in 2008. I had the back spring plate compartment routed on all 3 Strats so the batteries lay flat and can be easily changed without having to remove the whole pickguard... 😎👍

Nice, you are set for SPCs then!

I bought the Gilmour SPC/EXG circuit board from and eBayer who said the EXG does not work and the SPC does. He was selling cheap, less than most used SPCs, so I snagged it. 

Still haven't hooked it up, one of these days...

All I need is a volume and an SPC, I can just put a knob on the EXG and ignore it. 

[Caevan O’Shite]

9 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

bought the Gilmour SPC/EXG circuit board from and eBayer who said the EXG does not work and the SPC does. He was selling cheap, less than most used SPCs, so I snagged it. 

If you can get the EXG working too, it's very well worth it.
        
 

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

If you can get the EXG working too, it's very well worth it.
        
 

Yes, tiny circuit board with unfamiliar widgets on it, I'm lost. 

It's possible the previous owner didn't hook it up correctly and it does work but that's my only option. Otherwise, SPC.

[Caevan O’Shite]

2 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Yes, tiny circuit board with unfamiliar widgets on it, I'm lost. 

It's possible the previous owner didn't hook it up correctly and it does work but that's my only option. Otherwise, SPC.

Now, I didn't realize that EMG was selling an SPC/EXG combo that had both pots sharing a single printed circuit board. Do I have that right? That this has both in one unit, on one PCB?

In any case, when I had both on the same guitar, it was fantastic! It was volume, SPC, EXG, on a 'Super Strat' stylee; and I barely missed the regular tone control at all. 

[KuruPrionz]

10 minutes ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

Now, I didn't realize that EMG was selling an SPC/EXG combo that had both pots sharing a single printed circuit board. Do I have that right? That this has both in one unit, on one PCB?

In any case, when I had both on the same guitar, it was fantastic! It was volume, SPC, EXG, on a 'Super Strat' stylee; and I barely missed the regular tone control at all. 

Yep, it's a single circuit board with two goodies. It's laid out so you can install it into 2 of the 3 holes for controlls in a Strat pickguard. 

My blue Strat has the volume control hole covered up from the back with white plastic, I don't like having any control that close to the strings/picking hand.

I will unintentionally change the setting on it. When I install this, I'll put it so the SPC is in the middle hole (like it is on the blue Strat) and the EXP is at the volume control location - dead (presumably) and therefore harmless. I'll put a knob on it because a pot shaft is not comfortable to knock into. The volume control goes in the hole near the bottom edge of the guitar, just like the blue Strat. 

 

The way the board is laid out, cutting off the part with the EXP means figuring out all the traces would be severed. If the SPC works as it is now, I'll leave it be and use the knob I know I like. 

I prefer the minimum number of intellectual decisions when playing guitar, born left handed (still am but I play right handed for some reason) and probably would be diagnosed as autistic if I were 6 years old today. That idea didn't exist 60 years ago unless you were very autistic. 

 

Still, all that thinking offers nothing musical to me, I just want to play!

[Larryz]

Kuru, do you have a wiring diagram?  do you have the right EMG jack? Do not connect the bridge ground wire...it must have a 25K Ohm Audio Taper control for the system to work properly.  My model is EMG-DG-20 (EMG-SA System with EMG-EXG/SPC), yours might be the same or similar.  You might contact EMG at www.emgpickups.com (707) 525-9941 and see if you can get a copy of "Installation Information"...good luck and have fun! 😎

[KuruPrionz]

8 hours ago, Larryz said:

Kuru, do you have a wiring diagram?  do you have the right EMG jack? Do not connect the bridge ground wire...it must have a 25K Ohm Audio Taper control for the system to work properly.  My model is EMG-DG-20 (EMG-SA System with EMG-EXG/SPC), yours might be the same or similar.  You might contact EMG at www.emgpickups.com (707) 525-9941 and see if you can get a copy of "Installation Information"...good luck and have fun! 😎

Thanks Larryz, I've installed dozens of EMG pickups and am very familiar with how it's done. I have a decent stash of stereo Switchcraft jacks and know which wire goes where. Since I don't like pots, I have quite a few EMG 25k pots from previous installations on my own guitars. For example, my 335 has one volume pot, the other 3 pots are old standard pots that may or may not work but are not hooked up. I'll attempt a standard installation for the SPC/EXG circuit board and see where that gets me. Then if I have a problem I can describe it to EMG if needed. It could be a while in present circumstances but I do have all the parts for a FrankenStrat laying around waiting to be built. Cheers, Kuru

[p90jr]

Surfergirl... look for a used Seymour Duncan Pickup Booster pedal. I used one when I had to do a show where I switched between guitars that had drastically different pickup output, as it was intended to remedy, but a buddy of mine in a doom metal band tried one while just experimenting with whatever was on the shelf in a studio while he was recording and now uses it as a preamp for his Les Pauls w/ humbuckers into his amps, just cranked for more gain and craziness...

[Caevan O’Shite]

58 minutes ago, p90jr said:

Surfergirl... look for a used Seymour Duncan Pickup Booster pedal. I used one when I had to do a show where I switched between guitars that had drastically different pickup output, as it was intended to remedy, but a buddy of mine in a doom metal band tried one while just experimenting with whatever was on the shelf in a studio while he was recording and now uses it as a preamp for his Les Pauls w/ humbuckers into his amps, just cranked for more gain and craziness...

Good suggestion!  Now, if I recall correctly, you (surfergirl, that is) have a Fulltone 2B Clean Boost/Buffer/Germanium Limiter, am I right? THAT is ALSO a VERY, VERY good boost for this type of application, with any type of pickup. Just set it for the amount of boost you want, dial-in the just-right perfect degree of 'squish' from the limiting of its Dynamics control, and stomp it on when you want 'MORE'. Its buffering will always be working to benefit your signal, whether the 2B is on or off. Work your guitar's volume-knob with the 2B on or off, maybe with the amp initially cranked a little louder and dirtier than you intend to play most of the time, and use your guitar's volume-knob and your "touch" to adjust and compensate.

[Dannyalcatraz]

On 5/27/2022 at 10:49 PM, surfergirl said:

Anyone familiar with Golden Age Parsons Street Humbuckers from Stewmac.

I actually have a fairly high end guitar that came with STEWMAC Golden Age humbuckers.

 

 

That’s a semihollow guitar from Jon Kammerer (the model name has changed over the years as he’s tweaked the design).  When this one was made, he was using the Golden Age and Seymour Duncan pickups as his standard options.  Since I bought this guitar, I have definitely spent money changing or upgrading pickups on other guitars with products from Lace, Bareknuckle, Tesla, Vintage Vibe, and The Creamery, but I never took these out.  I don’t feel the need.

 

http://www.jonkammerercustoms.com

[surfergirl]

Dannyalcatraz,

thank you for the review of the Golden Age humbuckers. 

p90jr, I did consider the Seymour Duncan pickup booster.

Caevan, yes I do have the Fulltone 2b. It is the one pedal I use with every configuration. If I decide to use the onboard effects on my Vox VT40+, I will still use the 2b.

[wraub]

Have lately been enjoying the PAF style pickups I have in the single-cut more than ever, they are absolutely a part of "my sound" whatever that is. Going back and forth between a couple Strats with different SC pickups and then plugging in the guitar with the PAF types is like a revelation in full-tones crispness, no mud anywhere. If the guitar dies today I'll be putting these pickups in almost anything tonight.