History of P.A.F. humbuckers and why they remain difficult to replicate

[Caevan O’Shite]

Interesting info, a good read- you'll most likely learn at least a little somethin' about humbuckers and even pickups in general here:

Why Gibson PAF humbuckers remain the most revered and elusive of all pickups
A history of Seth Lover’s iconic Patent Applied For humbucker, how it became the Holy Grail of electric guitar pickups and why it remains so difficult to replicate today
Huw Price for Guitar World dot com


Bernie Marsden’s original 1959 Gibson Les Paul, nicknamed ‘The Beast’. Its P.A.F. humbuckers are pretty hot and aggressive. (Image credit: Future)

[KuruPrionz]

But wait, there's more!!!!!

 

Here is an interesting article containing correspondence between Ray Butts of Gretsch, who may actually be the first inventor of the humbucking pickup, and Ted McCarty from Gibson. 

 

https://guitar.com/features/interviews/makers-marks-who-really-invented-the-humbucker/

 

Personally, I like the Gibson pickups but the Gretsch Filtertrons win this round, they have a fuller frequency response and a sweeter tone. 

TV Jones makes awesome replicas, in fact the current high end Gretsch guitars all use TV Jones pickups instead of in house builds. 

 

No dings on either, I hate the hum of single coils but I happen to prefer their tone. The Filtertrons eliminate the hum and sound more like single coils to me. 

[Larryz]

I run USA 57 Gibson humbuckers with 500k Gibson pots and Orange drop caps with Switchcraft 3 ways on 3 guitars (Gibson Classic LP, Epiphone ES-175 and my Conti Heritage) and I love them...😎

[surfergirl]

Anyone familiar with Golden Age Parsons Street Humbuckers from Stewmac.

[desertbluesman]

I use Duncan distortions, and have used them since I began playing. I also use Duncan Lil 59'rs in one of my Strat style guitars both of the Duncan pup styles are the best I have ever used in my guitars according to my taste in tone.

[Caevan O’Shite]

18 hours ago, surfergirl said:

Anyone familiar with Golden Age Parsons Street Humbuckers from Stewmac.

 

They're quite excellent! I knew someone ("IRL", in person) who built a really sharp looking Les Paul style guitar a few years back, with those humbuckers in it. It sounded great!

[surfergirl]

3 hours ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

 

They're quite excellent! I knew someone ("IRL", in person) who built a really sharp looking Les Paul style guitar a few years back, with those humbuckers in it. It sounded great!

Thank you. Just making a birthday and Christmas wish list. 

[Caevan O’Shite]

5 hours ago, surfergirl said:

Thank you. Just making a birthday and Christmas wish list. 

Looking for an upgrade for that G&L ASAT Bluesboy?

[surfergirl]

8 hours ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

Looking for an upgrade for that G&L ASAT Bluesboy?

Yes, fortunately or unfortunately fixing stuff is in my DNA. When the Sugar Mill closed in 1996 my Grandfather started a appliance repair/handyman/guitar tech business and I hung out in his shop growing up. Michael and I used to repair thrown away surfboards, I guess it just grew for there.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Just now, surfergirl said:

Yes, fortunately or unfortunately fixing stuff is in my DNA. When the Sugar Mill closed in 1996 my Grandfather started a appliance repair/handyman/guitar tech business and I hung out in his shop growing up. Michael and I used to repair thrown away surfboards, I guess it just grew for there.

Cool, in my book.

What is it that want to be different for the neck-pickup on that guitar?

What do you want more of? What do you want less of?

[surfergirl]

Timmy our lead guitarist has a Strat style Yamaha with a Humbucker in the bridge and has quite a bit more output than I have. I guess a bit more output. The only other thing is the frets. I don't know how to explain it, but the frets are like pinky finger, I prefer index finger. Does that make since?    

The Humbucker isn't really an issue. The frets are more of an issue. Tuners, bridge and bridge pickup are fine. The 3 way switch is a little lose. We have one out of a Telecaster that some had replaced. 

[desertbluesman]

1 hour ago, surfergirl said:

Michael and I used to repair thrown away surfboards, I guess it just grew for there.

I built surfboards way back in the late 70's. Hank Byzak of Pure Fun Surfboards https://purefunsurfboards.com/ owed me some money for some reason or another, and I traded that debt for him teaching me how to shape and glass. I took that knowledge back east and taught several guys how to do those things. Some of them are still in business to this day. One of them is https://www.facebook.com/Planet-Blue-Surfboards-158976177483769/ Planet Blue Surfboards. He learned from Mike Cole who I taught back in those days Mike Coles logo was Inner Motion Surfboards. It was a fun time. From that skill as well as my masonry knowledge, I used those learned crafts to make my own guitars.

[Caevan O’Shite]

2 hours ago, surfergirl said:

Timmy our lead guitarist has a Strat style Yamaha with a Humbucker in the bridge and has quite a bit more output than I have. I guess a bit more output. The only other thing is the frets. I don't know how to explain it, but the frets are like pinky finger, I prefer index finger. Does that make since?    

The Humbucker isn't really an issue. The frets are more of an issue. Tuners, bridge and bridge pickup are fine. The 3 way switch is a little lose. We have one out of a Telecaster that some had replaced. 

Bear in mind, that if you already like the sound of the 'middle position', both pickups on in parallel, that will change if the balance of the two pickups is altered with a stronger humbucker at the neck.

In time, maybe get a refret with larger frets; and if you're going to go that far anyway, I highly recommend Stainless Steel frets.

I suppose that you COULD completely replace the neck altogether, with a new neck that has the larger frets you like; but if it ain't broke, so's to speak, ehr, paraphrase, don't fix it that much; maybe just get the frets replaced with larger ones later.

If the switch needs replacing anyway- and, by the way, if it's bad enough to warrant it, pun intended, get it fixed under warranty (this is the G&L guitar that you recently got, right?). If the switch needs replacing anyway, consider the Free-Way 3-Way/6-Position switch, it's incredible! it's trick, it's stealth, entirely too cool. It looks and acts completely stock- the normal three selections, but then if you click it sideways, there are three more selections. There are options to choose from, depending on your pickups and how you want to wire it up, but among those, the 'extra three' selections, there's: Br + N Parallel/Out-of-Phase, Br + N Series/Out-of-Phase, and Br + N Series/In-Phase.

Series/In-Phase might give you that increased output sound that you'd like, and you'd still have the original three selections, plus two more!

 

[surfergirl]

I will consider that Free-Way 3-way/6-position switch. 

 

I just found one(new)on Reverb cheaper than Stewmac and free shipping(not to Hawaii), Stewmac charges $11.95 shipping. If I go that direction I can have it shipped to my father and he will bring it when he visits this summer. 

[Sharkman]

6 hours ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

In time, maybe get a refret with larger frets; and if you're going to go that far anyway, I highly recommend Stainless Steel frets.

I also strongly recommend stainless steel frets, and the late Edward Van Halen was a huge fan as well.
 

 

[KuruPrionz]

9 hours ago, surfergirl said:

Timmy our lead guitarist has a Strat style Yamaha with a Humbucker in the bridge and has quite a bit more output than I have. I guess a bit more output. The only other thing is the frets. I don't know how to explain it, but the frets are like pinky finger, I prefer index finger. Does that make since?    

The Humbucker isn't really an issue. The frets are more of an issue. Tuners, bridge and bridge pickup are fine. The 3 way switch is a little lose. We have one out of a Telecaster that some had replaced. 

Your frets are not as tall as you would like?

Maple fretboard or rosewood? I think G&L frets their maple boards after the finish is put on. Fender used to fret the maple boards then spray clear lacquer over the fretboard, it makes it impossible to remove the frets without messing up the finish. 

 

My brother carefully ground a pair of toenail clippers so the curve of the blades was flattened, which leaves the blades only meeting in the center. He would just grind a small amount, then cool the blades off in water, you can ruin the temper of the steel if it gets too hot. 

This makes it easy to start at one end of a fret and sort of "sneak it out" of the slot. 

Then I made a clamping system with a wooden piece on the neck side of the clamp, cut half round so the clamp would seat on the neck and a separate piece of wood that had a smaller piece fastened to it with the curve of the fretboard. This makes it easy to press frets in. 

 

I use crazy glue and am quick with a wiping rag to remove any excess before it dries. I've pulled hundreds (if not thousands) of frets this way and put in new frets. 

The fun part is cleaning up the fret ends, leveling the frets, rounding the tops of the frets so just a small peak is filed, rounding the corners and then using various grades of sandpaper to sand out all the file marks and polish the frets up to 600 grit. Then some 000 steel wool and your new, taller frets will be leveled, crowned and polished. 

 

It's easy to do a great job if you are careful and take your time. Maybe find a beater neck to learn on, that's what I did. You can make some good money re-fretting customer's guitars and if you do a great job the word gets out. Just don't refret any vintage Fenders, maple or rosewood. They used to press the frets in from the side and pulling them out will tear up the fretboard something fierce. 

 

Don't ask me how I know that last part!!!!! 😇

[surfergirl]

A day off, screwdriver and patients, something I occasionally lack.

https://www.premierguitar.com/diy/mod-garage/humbucker-pickup-height

[KuruPrionz]

20 minutes ago, surfergirl said:

A day off, screwdriver and patients, something I occasionally lack.

https://www.premierguitar.com/diy/mod-garage/humbucker-pickup-height

I would take this article with a grain of salt, a large grain. 

It is vague, intentionally - because there are LOTS of variations in the construction of humbucking pickups. 

When adjusting a humbucker to balance with a single coil bridge pickup, like you are doing, is another matter entirely. 

 

Among the "variables", the strength of the magnets in the pickups (strong magnets can cause sustain and/or intonation problems), the fact that an unwound G will almost invariably be hotter than a wound D string, the fact that some humbuckers are wound for a neck position and some are wound for a bridge position and the fact that some guitars have identical pickups in both positions but the bridge pickup will always have lower output than the neck pickup because the strings always move more robustly and provide more volume in the neck position. Knowing more about what pickups do will not solve uneveness caused by a guitar amplifier or speaker, another set of variables. 

 

I would start with your bridge pickup and adjust it to sound the way you like with your guitar amp. Don't focus on output alone, I never got good tones out of some pickups until I lowered them down just a bit. Do focus on getting an even volume from string to string, this can get tricky since most fretboards are curved so the strings in the middle of the guitar (D and G) are farther away from the pickups than the strings on the outisde (E and E). And, the small E string has a much lower output than the large E string.

 

If you adjust the pole pieces for the two outside E strings to be flat with the top of the bridge pickup, that is a good starting point. Next, adjust the height of the height of the bridge pickup so that the high E string fretted at the 22nd fret is about 1/16th of an inch away from the pickup. Leave that be and adjust the height of the bridge pickup on the low E side so that the two strings are close to equal in volume, so they sound "right" (this is objective and done by ear for most of us). Now you can adjust the pole pieces for the inner 4 strings to balance with the two outside strings. Done. 

 

Move to the neck pickup. Flatten the pole pieces to the top of the pickup. Adjust the height of the pickup at the treble E string to more or less match the volume of the bridge pickup on the same string. Be aware that a single coil at the bridge will have less output than a humbucker at the neck, you may need to lower the humbucker to get a balance. 

Once the treble E strings more or less match in volume from pickup to pickup, adjust the neck pickup so the low E volume matches the volume of the low E on the bridge pickup.

Now you can adjust the middle 4 strings to match the output of the two outside strings.

 

Guess what? This is a good starting point!!!!! 😇

 

Because you have 3 height adjustment screws on the bridge pickup and 2 on the neck pickup, you may need to make some finer adjustments to even things up. 

Ideally, in the end you will have relatively even balance and volume through all 3 positions of the switch, providing you will a set of tones that you can just play. 

If you need more volume, turn the amp up. If you need more gain, adjust that on the amp. 

 

It could take a while but it's worth the trouble. You will get faster at it the more you do it. It will be different depending on the G string, if you use an unwound or wound string will change that adjustment considerably. Perseverence furthers... 😁

[surfergirl]

I know if I screw it up my Grandpa can fix it. 

Edit: When I read my post, it sounded wrong to me. He will guide me, but make me fix it. If I can't, he will then fix it and show me how. But he won't just fix for me. 

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, surfergirl said:

I know if I screw it up my Grandpa can fix it. 

Edit: When I read my post, it sounded wrong to me. He will guide me, but make me fix it. If I can't, he will then fix it and show me how. But he won't just fix for me. 

Grandpa has the right idea, it's awesome that he'll teach you what he knows about setting up guitars. 

I started fixing guitars because nice guitars in good repair were cost more than my meager budget. 

Dad was a master cabinet builder and we had a nice shop behind the house so I jumped in early and figured out most of it for myself. A little later I became friends with another guitar tech and we shared knowledge and parts. We are stil good friends over 45 years later. 

 

Now I mostly fix the guitars that I'm going to play so they play better. I do buy, fix and sell guitars and some of my friends get work done too. 

At this point I say I'm making the world a better place one guitar at a time...

[Caevan O’Shite]

2 hours ago, surfergirl said:

I know if I screw it up my Grandpa can fix it. 

Dirk Wacker (the author of the Mod Garage blog/column) is not wrong. KuruPrionz is not wrong, either.

Follow your ear. Decide on WHAT you want- particularly in the balance between the two pickups in the "middle position", or for one or the other to be predominant, that's YOUR call- and then adjust the heights of the pickups with that in mind. (IF you use the "middle position" much- maybe you don't!)

Since your Tele-style bridge-pickup doesn't have adjustable pole-pieces-

or does it? Hard to tell from available photos and info online; other G&L ASAT models do, but this one might not... 

...adjust the bridge-pickup, IF necessary. It may be just-right as it came.

Then measure where the neck-pickup, that humbucker, is at, so you can easily return it to stock settings if you want to. After that, raise it, lower it, adjust the heights of the pole-pieces, but let your ear be the final authority hear, ehr, here.

Then check the sound of the two pickups, the "middle position", and decide if you like the balance between the two. Raise or lower one or the other as needed. Zero-in on what YOU want to hear.


Me, I tend to like lowering the bass-side a bit more, but simultaneously raising the bass-side pole-pieces accordingly; while having the treble-side a little higher, closer to the strings, just a little, with treble-side poles rather low and close to the top of the pickup. I then tweak the heights of all of the individual pole-pieces by ear for the best string-to-string balance. All of this gets me more 'air" and attack and wrangly "low keys on the piano" harmonic-overtone swirl (!!  💖  !!) on the low/wound-strings, and rounder, warmer, fuller tones with a greater emphasis on the fundamental note/pitch on the plain-treble strings. Win-Win-WIN!!


Ultimately, it's subjective and up to YOU judging by YOUR ear.
             

[KuruPrionz]

Truth from Mr. O'Shite, your preference is what matters.

 

I happen to prefer a balance between the neck and bridge because I often use both. My right hand floats (except when I am muting by the bridge) and I can coax a nice range of tones out of having both pickups on and balanced. My other go-to is the neck pickup alone, I almost never use the bridge pickup by itself, just not my thing. 

[Caevan O’Shite]

37 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

I happen to prefer a balance between the neck and bridge because I often use both.

Me, too. I love that tone, on a Les Paul or a tele or the like, for clean and clean-ish sounds.

I do, however, also love either the bridge or neck pickup alone. Especially the bridge-pickup. But I don't go for or get a skinny, tinny tone there!
 
 

[KuruPrionz]

19 minutes ago, Caevan O’Shite said:

Me, too. I love that tone, on a Les Paul or a tele or the like, for clean and clean-ish sounds.

I do, however, also love either the bridge or neck pickup alone. Especially the bridge-pickup. But I don't go for or get a skinny, tinny tone there!
 
 

The neck/bridge sound is why my blue Strat does not have a middle pickup. I would never use it.  Simple is best, I've been tempted to build a guitar with just the neck pickup and maybe a volume control but nothing else. When I'm in my "Zone" I don't want to think, at all.

[surfergirl]

I'm back to the default setting, I like the middle setting and the bridge. The neck is fine. Can't see replacing a good pickup just for the sake of change. I think I will try that Free-Way switch, $45. is a small enough investment.  

[CEB]

I went through an exercise with Heritage where I was coming up with a custom order.  I played all their pickups in H535 and H555 guitars.  I expected I might like the Seth Lover in the neck and Duncan 59 in the bridge BUT at the end of the day the opposite was true My favorite combination was a 59 neck and Seth Lover bridge.  The 59 was brighter more chimey and more articulate.   In hind sight my favorite neck HB is a Dimarzio Bluebucker which is supposed to be voiced like a P90.   But … I’m a Tele guy. 

[Caevan O’Shite]

 

4 hours ago, surfergirl said:

I'm back to the default setting, I like the middle setting and the bridge. The neck is fine. Can't see replacing a good pickup just for the sake of change. I think I will try that Free-Way switch, $45. is a small enough investment.  

The 'extra' three pickup combinations are really cool! Br + N In Series/In-Phase is sort of like a giant, spread-out humbucker; in your case, a triple-coil humbucker with one coil near the bridge, the other two near the neck. It might be a stronger, louder output sound that you'll like.

The other two, Br + N in Parallel/Out-of-Phase, and Br + N in Series/Out-of-Phase,  will be thinner, lower-output, clucky/quacky quasi-Strat-sounds. Sort of.

 

3 hours ago, CEB said:

I went through an exercise with Heritage where I was coming up with a custom order.  I played all their pickups in H535 and H555 guitars.  I expected I might like the Seth Lover in the neck and Duncan 59 in the bridge BUT at the end of the day the opposite was true My favorite combination was a 59 neck and Seth Lover bridge.  The 59 was brighter more chimey and more articulate.   In hind sight my favorite neck HB is a Dimarzio Bluebucker which is supposed to be voiced like a P90.   But … I’m a Tele guy. 

Makes sense! All of it.
 

[wraub]

The PAF style pickups in my LPGSO are as good or better than I could ever have hoped for. I did spend a fair amount of time adjusting the pickup heights, as well as adjusting the pole pieces, to find a string to string balance I liked. The neck is clear and full, the bridge is chunky and biting, no shrillness at all. Great clean, stellar with effects (at least, with the ones I've tried). I want all my pickups to sound as good.

 

Apparently there's a "typical" range (in quotes because PAFs varied a bit), with a bridge about 8.2K and a neck around 7.2k that a lot of builders shoot for, and the ones I've tried in that range are usually pretty good. Details matter, apparently, and accuracy costs. Because of the variance noted, accuracy can vary too. Get what sounds good to you, that's what really matters. If the pickups you like are less expensive than some others, even better. 

[KuruPrionz]

The age of the magnets needs to be taken into account. All Alnico magnets become less magnetic over time. The PAF era was late 50's-early 60's so the magnets have had time to lose magnetism. Hence we see builders using Alnico 2 instead of Alnico 5 in an attempt to replicate the tones that aged vintage pickups have NOW. 

 

Of course, some of that lost magnetism has moved to the pole pieces. One may chase the Holy Grail but the Holy Grail may keep on running away. The actual parameters are pretty complex and subtle. 

 

I don't worry about it too much, if a pickup sounds good and has low noise, I like it. Like CEB, I tend towards more Fender-ish tones but unlike CEB I've gone all active for decades and don't really plan on going back to passive pickups. 

 

The pickups are one of the easiest ways to make a big difference in your tone. The other one that comes to mind is the speaker. Bearing in mind that new speakers go through a "break-in" period and must be used for a good 6 months or so to settle into their actual tone, a great speaker in your amp can make ALL of your guitars sound better. 

Best bang for the buck  guitar tone upgrade there is in my experience. 

[Caevan O’Shite]

8 hours ago, wraub said:

The PAF style pickups in my LPGSO are as good or better than I could ever have hoped for. I did spend a fair amount of time adjusting the pickup heights, as well as adjusting the pole pieces, to find a string to string balance I liked. The neck is clear and full, the bridge is chunky and biting, no shrillness at all.

I find that to be key in getting things 'just-right', along with string selection and general set-up.

Hell, everybody and their uncle's monkey across the internet bags on the hot, ceramic Gibson 500T and 496R humbuckers that came stock in my Les Paul; but I actually really like 'em, they work very well for my pick-less/fingerstyle approach.

Picking the right brand, type, and gauges of strings for this guitar, and then spending some time adjusting the pickups heights and pole-pieces, was very important for getting the results that I like. More than once, I've been asked what boutique or vintage PAF style humbuckers I put in that guitar to get it to sound so good; and when I told 'em what pickups they were, at least one person thought that I was lying, "holdin' out on" them... !