RD-88…can it be played from an external keyboard? - YES!

[miden]

6 hours ago, Al Coda said:

 

Why should we ?

You didn´t say how it works precisely.

B.t.w.,- it was me who said "when a/the (standard) USB2 cable runs from Blofeld USB-B port (that´s what it is) to the RD-88,- it consequently connects to the USB-A port of the RD-88.

This IS a USB-A port while the other (to host/ Computer) is typically USB-B.

And because all this isn´t documented by Roland at all, there was the possibility left,- you might have found something "somewhat" working which wasn´t Roland´s intention.

 

Then you said it works for MIDI notes.

It wasn´t clear whether it´s MIDI-notes ONLY,- or also other MIDI info in addition (controllers etc.) and it´s also nor clear up to now,- whether both works or not,- the connection between your Blofeld and RD-88 AND the connection between RD-88 and computer,- AND how this is interacting,- p.ex. the MIDI data being transmitted by the Blofeld is been merged into what´s been transmitted by RD-88 to host computer,- or not.

 

So,- what about the "features" mentioned in my last passage above ?

Are you willing to test and report here ?

I don´t have access to a RD-88 and in my area there aren´t any music shops selling pro gear anymorem,- other wise I´d go and test myself, but I can´t.

 

WHEN both the RD-88 USB connectors work w/ full MIDI implementation simultaneously and allow routing & merging of MIDI data,- the RD-88 I ignored before because of the lack of MIDI-In port, might be a keyboard working for my needs in my home studio and for practising (using it´s speakers) w/o the need of powering up DAW etc..

 

thx in advance

 

☺️

 

A.C.

 

 

If I was using a computer I would have written so.

Notes only at that time, that was all I had tried,and there was an interesting thing about controllers coming from the external keyboard I found later. But after the disparaging way you attacked my integrity over the belief of such a thing even being possible by demanding photos (IE the modern axiom - no photo, it didn't' happen!) I felt no inclination to share further information.

 

[EscapeRocks]

Not that MIDEN needs any verification of his statement, since the info is out there to be had via search :

I just stumbled upon this thread and will confirm it works exactly as he says. 
USB B of controller to USB A ON RD-88

 

Here I’m using my Keylab MK1 61 

In this use it must be powered externally, the RD-88 doesn’t pass enough juice 

 

USB A in on RD-88.  No other connections 

 

Setting local off on RD—88

 

I left basic MIDI RX for the scene set to Channel 1 for this quick demo. 
 

Here’s a brief video I filmed in my potato. 
sound coming from RD88 speakers of RD88 tone played from Keylab.  
Pitch,Mod Wheel, Sustain, etc also all work. 
 

 

[miden]

^^^ Re the above...just some additions in case others search and come across this thread...

 

Controllers attached to the external keyboard also pass thru to the RD-88.

Interesting thing, if you have it all connected as indicated from Davids photos (kudos m8!), and you are controlling either lower, or upper 2 (in my case upper 2 as I primarily want to use the organs on the RD (the Blofeld handles synth duties admirably and has its own audio channel for times when using it in that case) then if the Upper 2 button is lit you can play the part from the external keyboard and use the RD controllers (pedals, wheels etc) but if that button is off, you can still play the notes but none of the RD controllers will affect the sound. Not a big thing but something to be aware of.

 

I was always planning to use a "go-between" but finding it can be done this way means I can now do fully "hardware" gigs and get away with it!

 

I'll be using Camelot Pro on the iPad as it has the full soundbanks (as in patch names and locations) of both the RD-88 and Blofeld built in, and you can quickly re-scan in app if you make edits to patch locations on either 'board. These are the maps so far supported by Camelot. https://audiomodeling.com/camelot/compatibility/smart-maps/

[Al Coda]

16 hours ago, miden said:

But after the disparaging way you attacked my integrity over the belief of such a thing even being possible by demanding photos (IE the modern axiom - no photo, it didn't' happen!) I felt no inclination to share further information.

 

Please re-read my posts,- it wasn´t me wanting photos !

Instead it was me who knew how the USB must have been connected between Blofeld and RD-88,- just because there´s o other way w/ a common USB cable.

But,- I was interested in detail what´s transmittet and what not, WHEN this connection evidently works.

 

A.C.

 

 

 

[Al Coda]

21 hours ago, EscapeRocks said:

Not that MIDEN needs any verification of his statement, since the info is out there to be had via search :

I just stumbled upon this thread and will confirm it works exactly as he says. 
USB B of controller to USB A ON RD-88

 

Here I’m using my Keylab MK1 61 

In this use it must be powered externally, the RD-88 doesn’t pass enough juice 

 

 

USB A in on RD-88.  No other connections 

 

 

Setting local off on RD—88

 

 

I left basic MIDI RX for the scene set to Channel 1 for this quick demo. 
 

Here’s a brief video I filmed in my potato. 
sound coming from RD88 speakers of RD88 tone played from Keylab.  
Pitch,Mod Wheel, Sustain, etc also all work. 
 

 

 

Thank you very much !

This is great,- and unbelievable Roland didn´t mention these working features.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[Al Coda]

7 hours ago, miden said:

^^^ Re the above...just some additions in case others search and come across this thread...

 

Controllers attached to the external keyboard also pass thru to the RD-88.

Interesting thing, if you have it all connected as indicated from Davids photos (kudos m8!), and you are controlling either lower, or upper 2 (in my case upper 2 as I primarily want to use the organs on the RD (the Blofeld handles synth duties admirably and has its own audio channel for times when using it in that case) then if the Upper 2 button is lit you can play the part from the external keyboard and use the RD controllers (pedals, wheels etc) but if that button is off, you can still play the notes but none of the RD controllers will affect the sound. Not a big thing but something to be aware of.

 

I was always planning to use a "go-between" but finding it can be done this way means I can now do fully "hardware" gigs and get away with it!

 

I'll be using Camelot Pro on the iPad as it has the full soundbanks (as in patch names and locations) of both the RD-88 and Blofeld built in, and you can quickly re-scan in app if you make edits to patch locations on either 'board. These are the maps so far supported by Camelot. https://audiomodeling.com/camelot/compatibility/smart-maps/

 

Thx a lot for your detailed info !

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[stoken6]

4 hours ago, Al Coda said:

 

Thak You very much !

This is great,- and unbelievable Roland didn´t mention these working features.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

Agreed - it makes the RD88 more attractive as a gigging proposition in a two-board rig. Good to know.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[miden]

Another interesting (and useful) function the RD has is you can set individual touch settings for each scene. You are not restricted to a single over-arching "System Touch" response.

[EscapeRocks]

5 hours ago, miden said:

Another interesting (and useful) function the RD has is you can set individual touch settings for each scene. You are not restricted to a single over-arching "System Touch" response.

 

Along with that:

 

Really need to watch how your velocity curve is set on the Keylab. It's really easy  on the keylab to send a high velocity to the RD (and the Fantom-08) I have found

Since I'm not using my original Keylab, I didn't take time to make all those adjustments for the video example I created yesterday.  I just played very lightly.

My MKII Keylab 61 is dialed in to work perfectly with the Fantom-08, between Keylab setting and Fantom-08 settings

 

 

[miden]

Fast coming to the conclusion this RD is a glorified SC-88 with an attached keybed. There is not really a lot you can do regarding editing, or "librarian" type operations.

 

You cannot edit individual sounds and re-use them in other "scenes" - everything is directly related to the scene. For example if you want to edit a finger bass and then use that same bass across multiple scenes, you cannot. You have to load the original bass sound (and this applies to all sounds really) it into the new scene you wish to add it to, and then re-perform all the edits again. Rinse and repeat for every scene you want to use that bass (or other sound) in. Gets tired VERY quickly!

 

It essentially is a simple rompler player imo, with some minor tweaking ability. Useful, decent keybed without being brilliant, and if you treat it as such and do all your work (splits, layering, external efx editing) either in iOS, MAC or Windows apps, it will work fine.

 

Of course if the user is totally happy with the efx and sounds on board, as defined by Roland, then everything can be achieved on the RD itself

[AnotherScott]

23 minutes ago, miden said:

Fast coming to the conclusion this RD is a glorified SC-88 with an attached keybed. There is not really a lot you can do regarding editing, or "librarian" type operations.

 

You cannot edit individual sounds and re-use them in other "scenes" - everything is directly related to the scene. For example if you want to edit a finger bass and then use that same bass across multiple scenes, you cannot. You have to load the original bass sound (and this applies to all sounds really) it into the new scene you wish to add it to, and then re-perform all the edits again. Rinse and repeat for every scene you want to use that bass (or other sound) in. Gets tired VERY quickly!

 My understanding is that you can edit most of the Tones via their Zenology synth on your computer (because I think most RD-88 Tones are also there), export those edited Tones to a USB stick, then import them as User tones into the RD88, where you will then be able to re-use them in multiple Scenes if and as needed. I think this applies to the Tones that are in these RD-88 banks:  PR-A, PR-B, PR-C, PR-D, PR-E, and CMN. I don't think the RD-88-specific or SuperNATURAL RD-88 tones are there, so you can't edit those. But I haven't done any of this myself.

[miden]

Scott they are not actually part of the sounds available in the Zenology app, well not specifically at any rate.

 

Even though there is a method for doing so, it still doesn't obviate the point that it is not possible "on-board"

[miden]

Also please don't misunderstand I am not "ragging" on it - it's a pretty decent 'board, especially at this price point!!

 

More, trying to point out stuff with it should others come by this thread. And it's also good for someone who has the time to research a bit, to clarify things so all good!

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, miden said:

Scott they are not actually part of the sounds available in the Zenology app, well not specifically at any rate.

 

Hmmm. From what I read, all the Tones I mentioned should be there... though only some of them are in the free Lite version. You'd have to get Zenology Pro (or the free trial for it) to access the full set. Maybe that's the issue?

[miden]

13 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Hmmm. From what I read, all the Tones I mentioned should be there... though only some of them are in the free Lite version. You'd have to get Zenology Pro (or the free trial for it) to access the full set. Maybe that's the issue?

 

Yeah could be....I've decided to reverse think this and instead of trying to edit stuff on-board, I'll just pick the best there, edit them and import over the top of existing scenes and tones. So far Zenology seems to be ok...not sure about the subs model though, we'll see how it goes

[miden]

Maybe another "gotcha" - I've managed to edit a tone in Zenology and import it to the RD, however, it seems there are only 128 slots for importing tones....with how things can be overwritten not sure how it's going to go, as in if it is enough slots. I think I can save the edited tone to a scene, but not sure yet if that tone (in the scene) is lost if I overwrite it's original  "import" bank location.  Or whether once in the scene, it's then saved there. More to come

 

Manuals (RD and Zenology) are nigh on useless for this sort of thing, been mostly "suck it and see" tbh.

 

*Possible bug now, seems the SPLIT setting when edited does not save correctly...keeps getting over-written by some "hard-wired" setting of F#3 somewhere. It's not in the System Menus anywhere I can find. Have contacted Roland and will advise outcome. Just as a FYI for other folks reading, you need to not only save the Front Panel Split button point you create, but you also need to edit the note range under the Zone Edit section.

[ChazKeys]

Update for anyone who may own an iConnectMidi2. As long as you have a power adapter, as the RD88 hasn't enough juice for the iCM2, you can connect it to the USB A socket and this gives you the option of routing MIDI Din x 2 or even an iPad (no need to switch the driver to generic either). Niche but it's useful in my setup.

[Ibarch]

Rather late to this party but hey.

I've found that my Nektar Impact LX+ works fine to control the RD-88 but my Roland A-800 Pro does not work.  Not my expected results.  Bit disappointing as I was considering taking the A-800 as a 2nd board on gigs, for playing synth parts etc. 

Anyone else tried one of Roland's A-Pro boards and got a different result?

[stoken6]

2 hours ago, Ibarch said:

Rather late to this party but hey.

I've found that my Nektar Impact LX+ works fine to control the RD-88 but my Roland A-800 Pro does not work.  Not my expected results.  Bit disappointing as I was considering taking the A-800 as a 2nd board on gigs, for playing synth parts etc. 

Anyone else tried one of Roland's A-Pro boards and got a different result?

Are you sure the A800 is transmitting on the USB port? I'm not familiar with the board, but I would connect it via USB to a PC/Mac and monitor for any incoming MIDI traffic, to prove/disprove this theory.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Ibarch]

12 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

Are you sure the A800 is transmitting on the USB port? I'm not familiar with the board, but I would connect it via USB to a PC/Mac and monitor for any incoming MIDI traffic, to prove/disprove this theory.

 

Cheers, Mike.

Thanks for replying Mike . I use it all the time as a midi controller in Cubase and for playing various virtual instruments like Keyscape, so there is nothing wrong with the keyboard or midi Tx settings as far as I can see. Tested it across all midi channels and  keyboard maps just in case but doesn't help. 

Its not the cable either, tried multiple. All work on the Nektar, but not the Roland. 

[Adam Burgess]

Do those Roland A-boards not work on a similar principle to the old Edirol controllers, where MIDI would only work if the power switch was in a certain place and external power was applied, or something equally ridiculous?

Strange that one of the original manufacturers involved in MIDI would do these things!

[EscapeRocks]

Not sure if it’s the same architecture, but I have hooked my Roland A-88 MK2 to the RD88 and it works; playing the RD from the A-88

 

On your RD88, make sure the key switches are on in the scenes. Also make sure RX is on for the parts of the scene you want to control. 

[Reezekeys]

I just checked to make 100% sure, and my A800 transmits midi via USB and 5-pin simultaneously, whether powered over USB or from the wall wart - all midi, from everywhere, all at once (to quote a popular movie!).

 

One thing to keep in mind is that the A800 can boot up with either the Roland proprietary midi driver (they call it "advanced") or a class-compliant driver. It's possible that lbarch is using the proprietary driver in their computer, which could explain why the A800 is working with Cubase but not with the RD-88. Yes, I know they're both Roland instruments, but that USB-A port on the RD-88 seems to already be showing an undocumented feature by allowing any midi controller to directly connect and play it. So my first troubleshooting move would be to make sure "use advanced driver" in the A800 (under "USB SETTING") is OFF. If not, turn it off then power-cycle the keyboard.

[EscapeRocks]

More INFO

 

On your RD88, make sure to turn OFF USB-MIDI thru

On your A800 Pro, find the MIDI menu, and make sure MIDI I/F is set to "ON"  This 'forces' the A800 to send MIDI thru the USB cable

 

Also, for now, on the RD88 set Remote Keyboard Switch to ON.   This will have your RD88 respond to your A800 on any channel.   That way you can at least get up and running.

You'll want to have that off if you only want the A800 to play RD88 parts on a specific channel.

i.e., RD88 plays it's own piano sound on Channel 1

A800 Plays RD88 Synth part on Channel 2, etc..

 

 

[Reezekeys]

24 minutes ago, EscapeRocks said:

On your A800 Pro, find the MIDI menu, and make sure MIDI I/F is set to "ON"  This 'forces' the A800 to send MIDI thru the USB cable

 

I'm not home but will confirm this later - pretty sure midi comes out USB regardless of this setting. I/F mode only affects 5-pin midi. This capture from the manual shows the Roland proprietary connections. The class-compliant ones come up as APRO 1, 2, and 3 -- with APRO 2 being the port used to transmit notes & controller data (at least on my A800!).

 

[EscapeRocks]

ahh gotcha

Thank you!

[Ibarch]

18 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 my first troubleshooting move would be to make sure "use advanced driver" in the A800 (under "USB SETTING") is OFF. If not, turn it off then power-cycle the keyboard.

You sir are a genius. 

 

That is the issue. If the advanced driver is on it doesn't work. If the driver is off then bingo, it works. 

There is a theme with Roland boards and drivers. The RD-88 has a fun feature where it needs the generic driver to connect with iOS but this stops audio over USB. 

 

Next jobs on the list. Playing  a single zone on the RD-88 and seeing what works regarding patch changes, controllers and input from the a-800 fadars, rotary controls and buttons. Should keep me amused till the NFL starts. Come on the Bengals. 

 

 

 

[Ibarch]

16 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I'm not home but will confirm this later - pretty sure midi comes out USB regardless of this setting. I/F mode only affects 5-pin midi. This capture from the manual shows the Roland proprietary connections. The class-compliant ones come up as APRO 1, 2, and 3 -- with APRO 2 being the port used to transmit notes & controller data (at least on my A800!).

 

Yes, you are correct. Midi is still transmitted from the keyboard over USB regardless of this setting. 

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, Ibarch said:

That is the issue. If the advanced driver is on it doesn't work. If the driver is off then bingo, it works. 

There is a theme with Roland boards and drivers. The RD-88 has a fun feature where it needs the generic driver to connect with iOS but this stops audio over USB. 

 

Basically, "generic" is, well, generic, it allows a board to work in any situation where all that is needed is MIDI class compliance. In this case, the vendor (Roland) also has their own proprietary implementation, to allow them to do some other tricks that a generic MIDI implementation would not permit... but then it is no longer class compliant, and won't work in environments that require class compliant devices. So you have to choose one or the other. And while the RD88 is class compliant for MIDI over USB, I guess it is not class compliant for simultaneous audio over USB.

 

Other companies (e.g. Korg, Yamaha) similarly can require that you install custom drivers on your computer to access some additional functions that go beyond standard MIDI, but they don't require you to change a setting in  your keyboard to allow those drivers to work, or change it back if you want the board to work in a class-compliant mode. I suspect that Roland works this way due to legacy code this dates back to the days before class compliance was a thing and everyone had their own USB drivers.

[Reezekeys]

On 1/29/2023 at 8:56 AM, Ibarch said:

The RD-88 has a fun feature where it needs the generic driver to connect with iOS but this stops audio over USB. 

 

Any midi keyboard must use the class-compliant driver to connect to an iOS device since as I understand, iOS doesn't allow for custom drivers.

 

Also, the audio-over-USB feature of the RD-88 sends the RD-88's audio over USB to a connected computer, correct? So how would an iOS device be connected to the RD-88's USB port if the keyboard's port was being used to connect to a computer?

 

Just to clarify, we're not in any way talking about a feature Yamaha keyboards have that mixes the audio from a connected iOS device with the keyboard's own audio? Too many questions for a Monday morning, sorry! I'm glad that at least I figured out the issue with getting the A800 to play the RD88; that's quite an undocumented feature.