"Synthesizer vs Arranger" quote

[Old No7]

I saw this quote on another keyboard-specific forum (for MODX) and from the spelling, I'd guess the poster is from the UK.  I thought this description of a synthesizer versus an arranger was worth mentioning here.  I hadn't seen it described this way before...

 

Synthesizer versus Arranger quote:

 

The dividing line between the two, with 21st Century high tech is a little blurred. The ancestry though is very distinct.

A synthesiser is a blank canvas on which to paint. An Arranger, is a Colouring Book.

 

As for me, I'm just glad I got the MODX6 and sold off the ROMpler (MX61) which I had before.

 

Your thoughts?

 

Old No7

[dalpozlead]

Loved it. I wonder what should be the quote for a workstation…

(Everytime I scroll new workstations and find myself playing a fake ocarina or solo violin I loose all energy to purchase… too bad all best keybeds are on those…)

[GovernorSilver]

Seems like a fair quote, although I'm sure I'm missing a lot of the context.

[miden]

Well, tbh - I disagree with it. Any instrument is a blank canvas...on any arranger you can create your own tracks and are not restricted to "factory" ones, or the "colouring book approach" alluded to in that quote.

 

For that matter you could say the synths with the arpeggiators, or presets, Karma and the drum patterns etc on yamahas are all colouring books as well

[ProfD]

The quote makes sense considering how most folks use a synth or arranger.

 

Of course, there exceptions...

 

Folks who buy synths and only play presets. Not a single bank of custom sounds. 

 

Composer types who can program and play an arranger to sound like a personal big band or orchestra. 

 

It really comes down to the how the carpenter chooses to use the tools.😎

[GovernorSilver]

My intended use for my arranger is record a song - with intro, variations, outro, etc. - then export the MIDI.  Then edit the MIDI in a DAW, with the option of reassigning various instrument parts to synths

 

A keyboard workstation or even a groovebox with a MIDI keyboard could be also be used for the same end goal, but the process would be different.  An arranger places much more responsibility on the user to change the harmony in time with the rhythm section, play the right hand parts in real time, and also make decisions about song sections in real time.  I admit I don't know the particulars of workstation keyboards made after 2010, but my mid-2000s vintage Korg M3 would let you preprogram the song to the point where you can just press play and don't have to touch the keyboard any more - if that's what you want.

 

The flip side is arrangers give you less options for sound design - mine for example has only 3-stage envelopes - but the idea is to spend more time arranging the music, and less time deep in the sound design weeds.

[Tusker]

I agree there’s more than one way to view this. To broaden the question, can we include the notion presented by Chick Corea that there is a limitation to musical creativity and that’s a good thing because it means that a musical idea can be understood and appreciated within a human idiom?

[KuruPrionz]

If the listener cannot tell what instrument was used, does it matter in the slightest?

 

I saw Artur Rubenstien in concert playing a grand piano. It had no switches, knobs or sliders on it anywhere, it just sounded like a piano the entire time. Incredible, he had us all in the palm of his hand for a glorious musical experience. I don't think playing a synth would have improved the music. 

 

And a grand piano can't even do what a workstation can do... big whoop. 

[o0Ampy0o]

1 hour ago, KuruPrionz said:

If the listener cannot tell what instrument was used, does it matter in the slightest?

 

One can listen even though they may be deaf, can the listener hear or are they deaf?

 

How well does the listener listen?

 

Can it fool someone with a fine ear?

 

Can it please someone with a fine ear?

 

Can it impress someone with a trained mind and ear?

[o0Ampy0o]

A synthesiser is a blank canvas on which to paint. An Arranger, is a Colouring Book.

 

This fits.

 

Which facilitates what?

 

One suggests limitless possibilities of sounds and the other suggests limitless arrangements of a supply of sounds. A colouring book tends to conjure up ideas of a limited theme but the colouring book could just as well be a tome spanning a multitude of themes.

 

Of course people can use brushes as the canvas on which to paint and canvas can be the "paint" on a "canvas" of pooled paint but the basic description applies to the collection of tools presented in the two distinct instrument forms and their intended purposes.

 

 

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

21 minutes ago, o0Ampy0o said:

 

One can listen even though they may be deaf, can the listener hear or are they deaf?

 

How well does the listener listen?

 

Can it fool someone with a fine ear?

 

Can it please someone with a fine ear?

 

Can it impress someone with a trained mind and ear?

If one can listen to a recording and recite from listening by ear exactly the correct instrument with all the correct settings on every single knob, switch and fader, does that make them play great music? 

 

No, it doesn't. Maybe they can and maybe they cannot. All of your questions can be clearly and definitively answered with "Maybe" as well. 

Besides Artur Rubenstein, I've seen too many pianists play their asses off to regard knobs, switches and faders as anything more than what they are, control tools for creating sounds. 

Do any of those sounds sound better than a well played piano? Ask all the listeners in your post, I doubt there is a consensus there. 😇

[o0Ampy0o]

30 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

If one can listen to a recording and recite from listening by ear exactly the correct instrument with all the correct settings on every single knob, switch and fader, does that make them play great music? 

 

No, it doesn't. Maybe they can and maybe they cannot. All of your questions can be clearly and definitively answered with "Maybe" as well. 

Besides Artur Rubenstein, I've seen too many pianists play their asses off to regard knobs, switches and faders as anything more than what they are, control tools for creating sounds. 

Do any of those sounds sound better than a well played piano? Ask all the listeners in your post, I doubt there is a consensus there. 😇

 

The topic of this thread is what is the difference between one and the other type of keyboard.

 

I asked those questions in response to your post. I was addressing your point which I don't believe is relevant. My questions applied to your post but were equally irrelevant to the thread.

 

I don't see that anyone was saying the two types of keyboards are more or less important than how well you play or just because either involves dialing in the sounds from nothing makes the music any better than music played with traditional or "real" versions of instruments.

[KuruPrionz]

12 minutes ago, o0Ampy0o said:

 

The topic of this thread is what is the difference between one and the other type of keyboard.

 

You appear to have responded to my post ignoring the context of this thread. I asked those questions in response to your post and was addressing your point.

 

I don't see that anyone was saying the two types of keyboards are more or less important than how well you play or just because either involves dialing in the sounds from nothing makes the music any better than music played with traditional or "real" versions of instruments.

Saying one is a "blank canvas" and the other is a "coloring book" is derogatory, no?

Put a crap player on the synth and they will suck. Put a genius player on an arranger and they will soar to the highest heights. 

There, I responded to the sacred topic. 

Now, is either instrument any better than a piano, which is still a keyboard and still both a blank canvas and a coloring book and more as well (as are both the fore-mentioned instruments)?

 

I think the topic quoted in the OP is uninspired and essentially irrelevant. You could just ignore my posts if they upset you! 😁 Cheers, Kuru

[o0Ampy0o]

15 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

Saying one is a "blank canvas" and the other is a "coloring book" is derogatory, no?

Put a crap player on the synth and they will suck. Put a genius player on an arranger and they will soar to the highest heights. 

There, I responded to the sacred topic. 

Now, is either instrument any better than a piano, which is still a keyboard and still both a blank canvas and a coloring book and more as well (as are both the fore-mentioned instruments)?

 

I think the topic quoted in the OP is uninspired and essentially irrelevant. You could just ignore my posts if they upset you! 😁 Cheers, Kuru

 

Derogatory? No. You apparently only associate colouring books with adolescence. I did not originate the reference however I am certain it was only meant analogously to suggest a pattern in which to fill with something as opposed to a "blank canvas."

 

It doesn't matter whether anyone can do better with a simple traditional real piano. You are making an argument oblivious to the topic at hand.

[KuruPrionz]

4 minutes ago, o0Ampy0o said:

 

Derogatory? No. You apparently only associate colouring books with adolescence. I did not originate the reference however I am certain it was only meant analogously to suggest a pattern in which to fill with something.

It is the height of "subtle" British snootery and nothing more. Why even say it in the first place, what was achieved by such a hollow comment?

I would feel sorry for anybody who associates coloring books with adolescence, that is profoundly sad. 

 

[o0Ampy0o]

2 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

It is the height of "subtle" British snootery and nothing more. Why even say it in the first place, what was achieved by such a hollow comment?

I would feel sorry for anybody who associates coloring books with adolescence, that is profoundly sad. 

 

 

Dude get a grip.

[stoken6]

2 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

It is the height of "subtle" British snootery. 

 

What's British got to do with it? Surely snootery is a global attribute...

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Jon E]

53 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

What's British got to do with it? Surely snootery is a global attribute...

 

Cheers, Mike.

I think he meant snobbery 😉

[AnotherScott]

I thought it was a clever quote. It doesn't have to be literally accurate, or apply to every situation, but in very broad terms, I think it is a reasonable analogy. One is primarily designed to provide you with lots of elements and structure for the piece, the other not. It is not a commentary on the talents/abilities of the people using them. I guarantee you, Picasso could do much better work in a coloring book than I could do on a blank canvas.

[KuruPrionz]

5 hours ago, stoken6 said:

What's British got to do with it? Surely snootery is a global attribute...

 

Cheers, Mike.

All peoples practice one form of "snootery" or another. The British form sounds more polite than the American form. It may or may not be. It's a skill, I am not disparaging the skill required just the content in this case. 

[KuruPrionz]

7 hours ago, o0Ampy0o said:

 

Dude get a grip.

Quite honestly, I'm fine. 

If you think the quote is good, so be it. 

I think comparing instruments that are fully developed and useful is lame and un-needed. Does talent not matter? 

 

Here, so you can remind me that I'm not staying on topic again - whichh is the better instrument, a standup bass or a 5 string fretless electric bass?

(Correct answer would be that they are different and not comparable...)

 

[pjd]

I honestly don't think the analogy would help someone choosing between a synth or an arranger for their specific musical purposes. Too vague and, yes, a little snarky. I would agree that a synth is the preferred tool for sound design.

 

I own and play Genos (arranger), MODX (synth) and CT-S1000V (something in between). I've also got a Modal Skulpt, microKorg XL+, etc. in the arsenal, but they don't get as much active playing time. I practice on Genos and simply enjoy playing it. Auto-accompaniment is helpful for quick demos, but I don't really use it that much.

 

So, where does a Rhodes Suitcase or a Bösendorfer fit into this analogy? 🙂

 

All the best -- pj

 

[Old No7]

Well, that's an interesting discussion I'd started, huh? 😉

 

Anyway...

I will say that the diversity of opinions and viewpoints provided above is a strength of this forum, and something that keeps me coming back for more.  I find I can learn something new every day.

 

Cheers to all.

 

Old No7

 

 

[ProfD]

46 minutes ago, pjd said:

So, where does a Rhodes Suitcase or a Bösendorfer fit into this analogy? 🙂

 

An acoustic or electric piano is one sound that puts a whole orchestra underneath the fingertips.😎

 

 

[o0Ampy0o]

1 hour ago, pjd said:

Too vague and, yes, a litt e snarky. 

 

 

 Perhaps paint-by-numbers would have been snarkey. 

 

How about sculpting from raw stone vs. using plaster and molds?

[GovernorSilver]

2 hours ago, pjd said:

I practice on Genos and simply enjoy playing it. Auto-accompaniment is helpful for quick demos, but I don't really use it that much.

 

I'm surprised you don't use the auto-accompaniment on the Genos.  I thought auto-accompaniment was the main reason to get an arranger. 

 

Genos does have the Super Articulation piano and the largest selection of Super Articulation voices in general - I can see some customers buying a Genos just for those.

[pjd]

1 hour ago, GovernorSilver said:

 

I'm surprised you don't use the auto-accompaniment on the Genos.  I thought auto-accompaniment was the main reason to get an arranger. 

 

Genos does have the Super Articulation piano and the largest selection of Super Articulation voices in general - I can see some customers buying a Genos just for those.

Good question! Had to cast my mind back to 2016...

 

"I ain't gettin' any younger. Do I buy a Lambo or a Genos?" 😀

 

Would have bought a Montage (2016), but it is too heavy for me to gig. This from a guy who used to move a CP30 up and down a full flight of stairs...

 

Based on experience with a PSR-S950, Yamaha's Super Articulation (S.Art) is fun for playing jazz, rock, pop. Seeing the Montage, I gave up hope that Yamaha would add Super Articulation 2 (S.Art2, repeat, 2) to Montage and bought Genos (2017). A fair question today: "Would I have bought a Genos if MODX (2018) was on the street and available?"

 

Versus MODX, Genos has an FSX keybed with aftertouch and bigger touch screen. The S.Art and S.Art2 voices are intelligently programmed to make certain articulations intuitive based on gesture. Even with the same sample DNA, Genos feels more natural when playing certain acoustic emulations (oboe, flute, violin, etc.) Genos also has much better pipe organ (I am a church musician, after all) including an excellent (now free) add-on pipe organ pack.

 

I don't regret the decision. Will I buy another arranger -- doubtful. See "Good enough."

 

BTW, Yamaha arrangers are based on XG architecture and are easier (for me) to create, modify and play SMFs. [Could insert a long screed here.]

 

Bottom line, Montage, MODX and Genos are all nicely engineered musical instruments, not mirrors in which to view one's identity. 🙂 Like a Lambo.

 

All the best -- pj

 

P.S. Didn't pay MAP. Got Genos for roughly the same price as a Nord Stage.
 

[GovernorSilver]

Thanks for the clarification, pj!  

 

I recall reading some posts on the old HC forum that claimed Yamaha's latest and greatest sample playback tech always appeared first in the high end arrangers (Tyros at the time), then eventually trickled down to the mid-range arrangers and workstation keyboards.  It does seem to explain why S. Art showed up in Tyros first, before some of its DNA started to show up in the Motif as Xpanded Articulation.  

 

Because there is no S.Art piano on the SX-600, I've settled on the ConcertGuitar and NylonGuitar S.Art voices for practicing without the auto-accompaniment.  I just enjoy discovering how these voices react to where my fingers fall on the staccato to legato spectrum and velocity.  I haven't even tried plugging in a footswitch yet for more S. Art control.

 

Creating SMFs is among my intended usages for the PSR-SX600.  On another forum, someone asked about loading SMFs into a Roland MC-707, which I also own.  I looked into it, and offered my observations.  He seemed quite heartbroken that the MC-707 can only load up to one Clip (in Roland parlance) worth of SMF data.  On the MC-707, the default for a Clip is 16 steps to one 4/4 measure, for a total of 128 steps.   Anyway, I look forward to experiencing the SMF creation and modification process with my SX600.

[Biggles]

What a load of claptrap is that quote.

 

Since when is a $6000 keyboard a colouring book?

For many starting out learning to play keyboard do so with a cheapish Casio or Yamaha and then move on as they improve and develop a love of playing.

 

For many home players an Arranger or a DP with arranger features is a one box solution to those who do not want to be bogged down with a MIDI system or boxes and wires galore, they just want to play.

 

Any adverse comments against an Arranger is pure snobbish and a disservice to the millions of kids and youngsters out there practicing on their $300 keyboard.

[Jazzmammal]

To me this question is very simple.  An arranger is for playing songs live in real time with a full band as backing.  It doesn't matter what key you start in or the chord changes or the original song form because you play in any key you want using any chords you want and you can arrange the form any way you want including modulating to any key you want.  And a real biggie, you can completely change styles if you want.  Want to play Take 5 in it's stock form and change it to a swing, or bossa or funk or Sinatra big band?  Just press a few buttons and you're there.  Live, as you're playing.

 

No other keyboard type, keyswitching, computer software, or anything else can duplicate that.  There is one called Virtual Arranger that I looked into years ago but it's limited. The one drawback with an arranger is all the different style elements in the backing parts and variations are static.  If you keep playing a song using the same style after a while you begin to recognize all the different phrases or bass lines because they never change.   That's why when I'm playing my Korg Pa3X I'll use many different styles for the same song and that's also why the good arrangers have many styles within each category.

 

Bob