Definition of "Vintage"

[The Real MC]

What defines "vintage"?

It's not the age of the product.  IE products such as the Andromeda were introduced in 2001 and are in demand, yet is not considered "vintage".

 

It's not the demand of the product.  Old RMI electronic pianos from the 1960s aren't in high demand yet they are considered "vintage".

 

It's not obsolete electronic components.  Legacy Oberheims (OB-8 and earlier products) are "vintage" and you can still get replacement components for those.  Yamaha CS-80 and sibling products use long-out-of-production custom ICs that are hard to find NOS yet are "vintage".
 

Defining "vintage" is a tricky topic.  There's some parallels with guitar gear or antique furniture.

[KuruPrionz]

4 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

 

Defining "vintage" is a tricky topic.  There's some parallels with guitar gear or antique furniture.

With guitars apparently it can mean "something that mostly looks like one of the old ones". Just for one - vintage is "sell-speak" for "buy it because we say it's cool".

Peavey guitars from the 80's are not "vintage", they are old. Gibson guitars from the 80's are not old, they are vintage. Because Peavey is Peavey and Gibson is Gibson. 

For all that, the Peavey stuff is well made, sounds great, plays great and they built some high end neck through guitars and basses that will rival boutique instruments at reasonable prices. 

My favorite bass is a "Handcrafted in the USA" Peavey Fury, with a couple of upgrades I have about $240 in it. 

[Morrissey]

Here's an odd data point:  Guitar Center seems to define vintage based on a combination of age and reliability of pricing data.  I recently sold them a long-ago discontinued effect pedal... nothing special... about 25 years old... valued under $100.  I presented it to them as something to buy for their "used" inventory.  The local GC salesman said it would actually be classified as part of their "vintage" inventory, and he even had to contact GC headquarters for authorization on a purchase price, because of its relative rarity in their system.

 

This classification was somewhat unrelated to the age of the pedal in the sense that, had I brought in a 25 year old common effect pedal, especially one still in production (e.g., Boss overdrive), they would have bought it as "used," and the local guy would've had authority to do the transaction without HQ.     

[AUSSIEKEYS]

The term "Vintage" originated as a designated time period for cars. I know as i was involved in the old cars scene since the late 70s. At that time in the scene I was a stickler for correct terminology of those periods. But even I changed on that.

 

Its been so adulterated ive forgotten exact dates (and dont care now and call all old cars vintage) but it used to refer to around 1919 to 1931 (forgive me if ive got my dates wrong). Before that was Veteran and before Edwardian. After was Classic. 

 

But it also meant to be classified as such it had to be of particular pedigree or interest (thus the humble Model T was included which had no pedigree).

 

This all originated Id say from when the restoration scene was in its infancy in the 1950s so not all vehicles were worthy of that title within those time periods as finding old cars of pedigree was easy.

 

Id say that the hobby of restoration came from the postwar need of getting an old car back on the road. It was pleasurable enough for tinkerers so the to want to find a pedigree project in the later 50s seemed a natural. The side road to this collectable car was Hot Rods for tinkerers who didnt care about pedigree (although that in it self changed in the 60s and 70s when it seemed everything had to be V8 usually of chev or ford origin (even here in Aussie.)

 

The 1980s heralded the use of the term "vintage" to cover most old cars possibly partly sparked by the motor registries of the world introducing vintage car club plates/registration where they often  formally called all old cars vintage if not classic. 

 

Keyboards:  The 80s was the period of people starting to call certain keyboards and guitars vintage a lot to do with the collecting scene taking off then. As a vintage car guy it was natural for me to collect keys back in the 80s

 

Then the selling scene in 80s also cracking onto the term as a way to elevate the class of old stuff 

 

Now after being a stickler for the term meaning a period in time and of pedigree or interest I personally dont really care anymore as Ive been loosing my collection due to my health. I dont feel inclined to be buried with my collections anymore call them what you will.

 

The term "vintage" is in fact a bastardised term. And will remain so. It means nothing now in keyboards other than to increase the bottom line. The world can get ...

 

[David Emm]

Vintage: old enough to draw top dollar from people who haven't fully considered the baggage the term brings with it. I'd love a JD-800, but unfortunately, the red goo is vintage along with the rest of it. It can also mean "I bought a creamy NOS ____ at a garage sale from a clueless granny for $50!"

[AUSSIEKEYS]

Just now, David Emm said:

Vintage: old enough to draw top dollar from people who haven't fully considered the baggage the term brings with it. I'd love a JD-800, but unfortunately, the red goo is vintage along with the rest of it. It can also mean "I bought a creamy NOS ____ at a garage sale from a clueless granny for $50!"

Yep exactly. I have 2 Roland XP80s just oozing with vintage red goo

[timwat]

Harder still to parse - old vs. elderly vs. antique vs. vintage.

 

When discussing the fairer sex.

[Doerfler]

1 hour ago, timwat said:

Harder still to parse - old vs. elderly vs. antique vs. vintage.

 

When discussing the fairer sex.

safest to keep those thoughts to yourself. 

[o0Ampy0o]

5 hours ago, timwat said:

Harder still to parse - old vs. elderly vs. antique vs. vintage.

 

When discussing the fairer sex.

 

The one-step NN4MM (no need for minutia method):

 

Classify anything and everything into two groups.

      Group #1 Old

      Group #2 Not Old

An exception: when it comes to the fairer sex there is only one group. Especially effective if you look like George Clooney, address all the fairer sex as not old.

[o0Ampy0o]

6 hours ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

The term "Vintage" originated as a designated time period for cars. I know as i was involved in the old cars scene since the late 70s. At that time in the scene I was a stickler for correct terminology of those periods. But even I changed on that.

 

It has been a term used in the context of wine since before the automobile was invented.  Vintage — the year a wine is bottled—the yield of wine from a vineyard during a single season.

 

However there being more than one meaning for many words this is probably the more relevant definition:   Vintage --- of old, recognized, and enduring interest, importance, or quality : classic

[TommyRude]

old but good

[AUSSIEKEYS]

1 hour ago, o0Ampy0o said:

 

It has been a term used in the context of wine since before the automobile was invented.  Vintage — the year a wine is bottled—the yield of wine from a vineyard during a single season.

 

However there being more than one meaning for many words this is probably the more relevant definition:   Vintage --- of old, recognized, and enduring interest, importance, or quality : classic

 Yes yes you are right.

 

Ohhh completely slipped my thoughts as Ive never partook of any alchohol of any kind so vintage being applied to alcohol is not a common in my mind thing to me.

 

But I do recognise it would exist before the automobile. And have definately heard it applied on TV in that way to wine many times.

 

So stand corrected.

 

I will say the vintage car scene and the vintage music instrument scene do parallel each other closely in many ways.

 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

Everything that is vintage is OLD. but not everything old is vintage. 

 

But people who are trying to sell the old junk in their garage have misappropriated and wrongly used the term either from ignorance on their part or the foolish buyers part.

 

A 20 year old gibson guitar changing hands on the used market in 1975 is vintage (like my original LP junior).

A 20 year old gibson guitar changing hands on the used market in 2022 is not and will never be vintage (like my 2003 LPjr).

 

In my opinion old teisco, univox or even yamaha guitars are not vintage just old. Even though some are good guitars. I don't think synths can be vintage. But I think antique pianos probably can be. 

Because of abuse, vintage as a term has lost its meaning and those who use it today when selling something just reveal either their ignorance or their willingness to decieve.

 

Notice I said "in my opinion". To those who use the term more broadly, I'm not accusing you of ignorance or deception.

 

But I am thinking it in my mind.

[ElmerJFudd]

A car has to be 25 years old before it qualifies for historic plates.  But historic and vintage aren’t defined the same. 

With wine, it implies simply what year and place it’s from.
 

Generically we use the term to mean, of great quality. 

 

In instruments, gear (even clothing) - the word gets thrown around loosely and vendors love to use it as an attractive attribute.  A selling point.  It looks vintage, sounds vintage, functions like something vintage.  It sometimes refers to analogue vs. digital.  Where it’s desirable for the digital to mimic vintage analogue sound, look and behavior.  A Juno 106 is a vintage analog synth.  The plug-out sounds vintage.  The Juno chorus effect is vintage. But also noisy.
 

But the DX7 is digital AND vintage.  Because it’s old - 39 years.  Digital, vintage AND historic!  Hmmm.  🤔 

[ProfD]

15 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

A Juno 106 is a vintage analog synth. 

Whoa there bro...IMO, the Juno 106 does not meet any of the vintage criteria. 🤣

 

Also IMO, folks "rediscovering" technology from yesteryear and/or paying an insane amount of money doesn't make it vintage either.

 

Nostalgia has a way of influencing vintage status too.

 

As it relates to gear, I believe "vintage" is something that has a unique sound(s) and/or feature(s) that is hard to reproduce especially from the perspective of experience.😎

[Docbop]

What I find humorous is as a guitarist who started in the 60's and we all thought the 70's CBS Fender guitars and amps sucked and even the 70's Norlin era Gibsons.     But now people are paying crazy prices for "vintage" 70's gear just because it old.   Even Boomers who in the 70's griped about the guitars and amp are paying those vintage prices.    Just because something is old doesn't mean it good, there will always be identical gear that some is better and some is only still around because it's been in a closet collecting dust. 

[KuruPrionz]

11 minutes ago, Docbop said:

What I find humorous is as a guitarist who started in the 60's and we all thought the 70's CBS Fender guitars and amps sucked and even the 70's Norlin era Gibsons.     But now people are paying crazy prices for "vintage" 70's gear just because it old.   Even Boomers who in the 70's griped about the guitars and amp are paying those vintage prices.    Just because something is old doesn't mean it good, there will always be identical gear that some is better and some is only still around because it's been in a closet collecting dust. 

 

Yep.I've bought and sold piles of old gear that isn't vintage. Some things are timeless, an SM57 for instance or a mid 50's Fender Tweed amp. 

Often enough you are better off in terms of reliability and cost to get a newer "reproduction" of the old stuff. 

I have a converted Hammond amp that an eBayer made into a modified Fender 5D3 circuit (mid-50's Deluxe). It has one input and two volumes so it's already "jumpered" and all the caps, pots and resistors were replaced as well as the tube sockets. Converted EL 84 to 6V6 just for one.

 

Best of both worlds, great vintage output transformer and steel chassis and all new everything else wired up for the original tones. I got it for $400, you could pay 10x that for an original Fender 5D3 if you can find one and it might not be in great condition if it's all orginal. Those caps don't last forever!

 

Keeping a "museum piece" original and functional is an insane proposition. I only have one vintage guitar, an early 60's Silvertone Danelectro dolphin nose that sold for $37 when it was new. 

It's all there and all original, not in perfect condition but not bad either. And it's a great guitar if you like that sort of thing. That's the one I wanted when I was a kid staring at the Sears catalog but I never got one. Probably more about fulfiling a dream than anything else. 

[Docbop]

31 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

Keeping a "museum piece" original and functional is an insane proposition. I only have one vintage guitar, an early 60's Silvertone Danelectro dolphin nose that sold for $37 when it was new. 

It's all there and all original, not in perfect condition but not bad either. And it's a great guitar if you like that sort of thing. That's the one I wanted when I was a kid staring at the Sears catalog but I never got one. Probably more about fulfiling a dream than anything else. 

When it comes to tube gear I prefer modern copies based on original schematic.   Old tube gear you have to start replacing all the caps,  resoldering everything,  sometimes transformers replaced, and so on.   So I will just buy copies with good new parts that won't need new cap's or etc for a long time.     

[KuruPrionz]

37 minutes ago, Docbop said:

When it comes to tube gear I prefer modern copies based on original schematic.   Old tube gear you have to start replacing all the caps,  resoldering everything,  sometimes transformers replaced, and so on.   So I will just buy copies with good new parts that won't need new cap's or etc for a long time.     

Yep, it's good policy. 

There are some good builders who may seem a bit "hillbilly" but their stuff works great. My other tube amp is an older mono hi-fi chassis supossedly converted to a 1958 Vox AC-15 Top Cut channel. I don't think it's a duplicate, different rectifier tube and nowhere near as many preamp tubes but it's a great sounding amp and very different than my Tweed "clone". 

 

Both of them are too loud to enjoy if you crank to the sweet spot. I've more or less switched to solid state amps for gigging and I've always gravitated towards acoustic guitars at home. 

So I'll probably flip them and the box full of vintage organ pull tubes I've accumulated over the years. 

 

I'm not a collector, I don't want a museum. I want stuff I can play!!!!! I probably wouldn't buy an older keyboard either, I gave a working Hammond M-1 to a friend before I moved up here and no regrets. Too many things can go wrong and I've smelled the yellow smoke enough times already. 

[ElmerJFudd]

3 hours ago, Docbop said:

What I find humorous is as a guitarist who started in the 60's and we all thought the 70's CBS Fender guitars and amps sucked and even the 70's Norlin era Gibsons.     But now people are paying crazy prices for "vintage" 70's gear just because it old.   Even Boomers who in the 70's griped about the guitars and amp are paying those vintage prices.    Just because something is old doesn't mean it good, there will always be identical gear that some is better and some is only still around because it's been in a closet collecting dust. 

Vintage seems to be whatever older guys lusted for age 10-25 but didn’t have the dough for. Now that they have made a living and have some cash burning a hole in their pocket - they want that stuff they couldn’t get their hands on as kids. That vintage stuff from their youth.  What that stuff is changes each generation and drives the price of old shit up!  

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, KuruPrionz said:

Yep, it's good policy. 

There are some good builders who may seem a bit "hillbilly" but their stuff works great. My other tube amp is an older mono hi-fi chassis supossedly converted to a 1958 Vox AC-15 Top Cut channel. I don't think it's a duplicate, different rectifier tube and nowhere near as many preamp tubes but it's a great sounding amp and very different than my Tweed "clone". 

 

Both of them are too loud to enjoy if you crank to the sweet spot. I've more or less switched to solid state amps for gigging and I've always gravitated towards acoustic guitars at home. 

So I'll probably flip them and the box full of vintage organ pull tubes I've accumulated over the years. 

 

I'm not a collector, I don't want a museum. I want stuff I can play!!!!! I probably wouldn't buy an older keyboard either, I gave a working Hammond M-1 to a friend before I moved up here and no regrets. Too many things can go wrong and I've smelled the yellow smoke enough times already. 

Haha. Yes.  I might hang on to a classic or a vintage piece or two to play at home.  But stuff to keep under glass and trading up for museum show  pieces. No. I just want to play.  👍

[ProfD]

In one of the most depressing Guitar Center KB departments I have seen to date, there was a Moog One behind the glass in the used gear case. 

 

Despite the $7,400 sticker price used, my first thought it was a casualty of faded nostalgia. Somebody with enough disposal income thought they were buying a modern MemoryMoog. 😁

 

Over time and a few patches later, they realized the Moog One was limited to 8-16 voices, 3 VCOs, 2 analog filters and still sounded  remarkably like a VST in a wooden box. Not vintage at all.🤣😎

[AUSSIEKEYS]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Vintage seems to be whatever older guys lusted for age 10-25 but didn’t have the dough for. Now that they have made a living and have some cash burning a hole in their pocket - they want that stuff they couldn’t get their hands on as kids. That vintage stuff from their youth.  What that stuff is changes each generation and drives the price of old shit up!  

 

I think Elmer has hit the modern definition of it on the head for me. 

 

Where in the 70s 80s I used the word vintage to describe a time period for an old car in the collecting scene i now look at it as what Elma Gantry describes. The words meaning has been changed like so many other things. I no longer cherish the word vintage.

 

Over the years I have seen many collectable items of all types loose value because that generation had died out.

 

Cars of the actual vintage era 1919 to 1931 roughly are mostly worth little money now compared to other more modern cars as those of it's generation have died out. Plus the modern generation doesnt want slow uncomfortable cars that they had no previous link to so the number of crazy buyers for the number of cars diminishes leaving the prices to stay far below their once cherished status.

 

Im not sure we what we will see with synths when the 70/80s generation dies out as those vintage items are still usable to a muso unlike a 1920s vintage car. 

 

I think most "vintage" music gear will keep a high value after the generational die off because it can be used on albums even if it needs much upkeep as the outcome once recorded doesnt show the hassle of owning a cantankerous beast.

 

But surely its value must plummet to a reasonable price once the crypto billionaires go bust or will the new Tullip craze creates more billionaires with money to burn...probably? And so the cycle goes on.

 

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

7 minutes ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

 

I think Elmer has hit the modern definition of it on the head for me. 

 

Where in the 70s 80s I used the word vintage to describe a time period for an old car in the collecting scene i now look at it as what Elma Gantry describes. The words meaning has been changed like so many other things. I no longer cherish the word vintage.

 

As Elmer says I have seen many collectable items of all types loose value because that generation had died out.

 

Cars of the actual vintage era 1919 to 1931 roughly are mostly worth  little money now compared to other more modern cars as those of it's generation have died out. Plus the modern generation doesnt want slow uncomfortable cars that they had no previous link to so the number of crazy buyers for the number of cars diminishes leaving the prices to stay far below their once cherished status.

 

 

1970s Porsche is very hot right now. Booming restoration business.  That’s the make/year many 50+ year olds remember fondly as they reach their peak earning years.  Vintage, classic - these terms have personal meaning for whatever you were into as an impressionable youth.
 

Classic/Vintage video games and machines are hot right now. That’s an 80s phenom.  The previous gen wanted pool tables and pin ball machines.  

[ProfD]

13 minutes ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

I think most "vintage" music gear will keep a high value after the generational die off because it can be used on albums...

I believe that ship has sailed too.😁

 

Vintage hardware prices will plummet in price again once the nostalgia and novelty of rediscovery wears off. 

 

Today's coveted electromechanical KBs and synths of yesteryear were being given away or trashed from the late 1980s - early 2000s.  The collectors only had to hold on to them like a stock.

 

Otherwise, the current generation will be happy to make their music in the box using a MIDI KB and software.  Their music will be uploaded to a digital platform too.  No  physical media (album) required. 

 

Vintage hardware will be cheap or dead in 10 years or less. 😎

[TommyRude]

I have a pair of vintage Levi jeans. Starting the bidding now at $2,500.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

34 minutes ago, ProfD said:

I believe that ship has sailed too.😁

 

Vintage hardware prices will plummet in price again once the nostalgia and novelty of rediscovery wears off. 

 

Vintage hardware will be cheap or dead in 10 years or less. 😎

Im hoping you are right.

 

But i said that in context to what i was saying about vintage cars.

 

In that there is still a life for vintage music gear in the future compared to 1920s cars.

 

Should be able to keep its value from being totally decimated because it is usable in the future unlike a vintage car of the 20s which most cannot keep up with traffic, cannot offer comfort, cannot be used once we or if we get booted over to electricity (as much as i find that hard to believe possible but already 2 stroke cars are banned in europe i believe and i owned a few in my day. no wonder my lungs are stuffed)

 

Todays vintage keyboard prices are rediculous i don't see them lasting but i think pricings of say 5 years ago will be more like it which is still high but affordable to many.

 

But i do get that many want to play on computers to do their music and have no need for luxuries of vintage tat.

 

 

Hell this pandemic and the  cryptoists have changed the collecting scenery the current situation is hopefully a tullip blip.

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

Im hoping you are right.

 

But i said that in context to what i was saying about vintage cars.

 

In that there is still a life for vintage music gear in the future compared to 1920s cars.

 

Should be able to keep its value from being totally decimated because it is usable in the future unlike a vintage car of the 20s which most cannot keep up with traffic, cannot offer comfort, cannot be used once we or if we get booted over to electricity (as much as i find that hard to believe possible but already 2 stroke cars are banned in europe i believe and i owned a few in my day. no wonder my lungs are stuffed)

 

Todays vintage keyboard prices are rediculous i don't see them lasting but i think pricings of say 5 years ago will be more like it which is still high but affordable to many.

 

But i do get that many want to play on computers to do their music and have no need for luxuries of vintage tat.

 

 

Hell this pandemic and the  cryptoists have changed the collecting scenery the current situation is hopefully a tullip blip.

I wonder how Behringer‘s cloning affects value of originals in less than new condition.  Or entirely new analogues.  Or software models that are increasingly difficult to differentiate from the originals in recordings.  This must all have an affect on the value of original hardware.  The only thing that keeps that value afloat is supply and demand.  Are curators willing to pay for the real thing?  And are there more curators than their are vintage synths?  When those that are reverent for the instruments are no longer buying, that’s when the bottom falls out.  
 

It reminds me of what happens to the instruments of great and famous players after they pass.  The families tend to put them up for auction… Chick Corea‘s stuff is in recent memory.  Rick Wakeman has been cleaning “vintage” house while he’s still kicking around.  We can’t take it with us.  Play what you like.  If it's vintage to you, that's all that matters.  👍

[Tom Williams]

To summarize: the word "Vintage" refers to old crap that I hope to sell for substantially more than it's worth.

[brenner13]

I recently saw a listing for a Korg M-50 for sale and described as “vintage”. Isn’t that synth from the late 2000’s? I guess that might be an ancient piece of gear to someone that is maybe 15 years old?