Delisting of Korg Grandstage

[Scazbot]

Hey All,

 

I just happened to be comparing specs between different boards and I realized that the Korg Grandstage Stage Piano is no longer listed on Sweetwater, Andertons, or Thomann. There is 1 left on Kraft Music. I also noticed Korg still lists the Grandstage on their website. Mostly I was just curious if anyone had any inklings about whether or not this board was being retired or refreshed. Thoughts, opinions, and wild speculation are all welcome here.

[zephonic]

I think there's so much overlap with the SV that it's hard to make a case for it. Same sounds, same action, same price, very similar UI...

 

I play it at one of my churches, it's fine but nothing really stands out, IMO.

 

[Docbop]

I heard they discontinued the GrandStage when they discontinued the Kronos.   I thought their website had it listed as discontinued at one point too.   Maybe they found a bunch in their warehouse and relisting it till they are gone.  

[ElmerJFudd]

The Grandstand advertised price was $2400 with editing of Kronos sound engines removed. Now for $2800 you can have a Nautilus.  That’s a no brainer.  The SV2 at $2200-2400 has way more vibe (as does the VOX).  Those two are a pretty nice pairing.  

[jimkost2002]

The Grandstage and SV DO NOT have the same AP’s. Grandstage pianos are from Kronos +the premium add-on “Austrian Piano“ pack . SV  acoustic pianos do not contain the multi-sample levels of the Grandstage/Konos/Nautilus pianos.

Even though the Kronos/SV/Grandstage have the RH3 action, they all feel different because of the different housing and bracing in each machine.

I’ve owned 2 Kronos (a 73 and an 88), currently own a Nautilus 88 and have played many different Grandstages and SV’s from backline companies and studios.

The Grandstage is a GREAT keyboard (as are the SV/Kronos/Nautilus) but they ALL have different purposes and I definitely see a refreshed version having a place in Korg’s lineup, but time will tell……and maybe we will see something at NAMM(?)

[ElmerJFudd]

9 minutes ago, jimkost2002 said:

The Grandstage and SV DO NOT have the same AP’s. Grandstage pianos are from Kronos +the premium add-on “Austrian Piano“ pack . SV  acoustic pianos do not contain the multi-sample levels of the Grandstage/Konos/Nautilus pianos.

Even though the Kronos/SV/Grandstage have the RH3 action, they all feel different because of the different housing and bracing in each machine.

I’ve owned 2 Kronos (a 73 and an 88), currently own a Nautilus 88 and have played many different Grandstages and SV’s from backline companies and studios.

The Grandstage is a GREAT keyboard (as are the SV/Kronos/Nautilus) but they ALL have different purposes and I definitely see a refreshed version having a place in Korg’s lineup, but time will tell……and maybe we will see something at NAMM(?)

Quite true.  The Grandstage is a very capable stage piano.  It just appears to either be a slow seller or not in Korg’s plan in the current line up. 

[AnotherScott]

4 minutes ago, jimkost2002 said:

The Grandstage and SV DO NOT have the same AP’s. Grandstage pianos are from Kronos

 

Right, and I think that kinda reinforces Elmer's point. The Nautilus (also Kronos-derived) basically has all the sounds and functionality of the Grandstage, plus a lot more, at not too exorbitant a price difference. When the Grandstage came out, it was kind of a "best of Kronos" sound-wise, at a much lower price, with a simpler interface. Now at near the same price, Nautilus gives you more of an "all of Kronos" sound-wise, again at a lower price, again with a simpler interface (not as simple as Grandstage, but not as overwhelming in presentation as Kronos could be). Meanwhile, the SV2 has an entirely different sound/feature set, the most "hands-on" interface, the retro styling, the speaker option, it has more of its own unique appeal as opposed to the GS being something of a little brother to the Kronos, now Nautilus. So I can kind of see GS being squeezed out by the SV2 on one side and Nautilus on the other. Unless maybe they could have lowered its price.

[ElmerJFudd]

Now an instrument with an interface like the SV2 with the Nautilus under the hood and a software editor for what the hardware’s UI doesn’t access would be pretty cool! 

[16251]

I don't know what the secret ingredient is but Korg IMHO doesn't do acoustic piano very well. Even with gigabytes and multi-samples.

[ElmerJFudd]

59 minutes ago, 16251 said:

I don't know what the secret ingredient is but Korg IMHO doesn't do acoustic piano very well. Even with gigabytes and multi-samples.

They do all seem to have a vision of what an AP should sound like and then they give them to us where we tweak them endlessly trying to get them to sound right.  When performance venues had an acoustic piano on the premises we just made do with what they had.  Hoped it had been tuned recently, the damper pedal and the keys we use almost often working.    

[jejefunkyman]

I don’t know what it’s worth, but in the french SV2 product presentation, it’s mentioned that the SV2 APs are derived from the Kronos 🤷‍♂️

[AnotherScott]

17 minutes ago, jejefunkyman said:

I don’t know what it’s worth, but in the french SV2 product presentation, it’s mentioned that the SV2 APs are derived from the Kronos 🤷‍♂️

 

Yes, I had forgotten that... unlike the SV1 (which pre-dated Kronos), SV2 pianos are derived from Kronos. I don't think any of the other SV2 sounds are, though. Still not identical, though, since unlike (as I understand it) the Kronos, Nautilus, Grandstage, or Vox Continental, the SV2 does not have the Kronos' SGX piano engine, so the implementation is different, even if they're based on the same sample set. Kind of like the Krome in that respect.

[pawelsz]

I find SV-2 APs sounding "woodier" than APs in Kronos/Grandstage which sound a bit "metallic" to me. But at the same time sound of Kronos/Grandstage/Nautilus/Continental has higher fidelity I would say, it's cleaner. Nautilus has slightly changed its sound in the direction of more "woody", warmer sound, but still not as warm as SV-2. Conclusions based on listening to many YouTube videos, also the direct Kronos & Nautilus comparison made by muzykujkropkacom. 

 

EPs also are from two different worlds in SV series than in other Kronos-derived boards like Kronos/Grandstage/Nautilus/Continental. 

[jimkost2002]

AnotherScott & Jeje Funkyman-

 

Note the wording: “derived” does not necessarily connote a 1:1 relationship.

I can absolutely say the SV APs -both 1 and 2 iterations are of a lower sample rate and fidelity in relationship to Kronos/Grandstage/Nautilus. Can’t speak to the Vox as I don’t have much hands-on experience with it.

 

As to the general “quality” of the APs, as Elmer says, we all have an ideal…..

But, I can say Kronos/Nautilus are VERY popular in the Gospel/R&B/HipHop/Rap genres and I myself practice everything from Bach and Chopin to Jazz and Church/Gospel with high end open back Focal and AKG cans and find them quite satisfying. And I have worked with and/or played almost every conceivable DP or AP, but I’ll work with whatever the gig gives me. 

[AnotherScott]

21 minutes ago, jimkost2002 said:

AnotherScott & Jeje Funkyman-

 

Note the wording: “derived” does not necessarily connote a 1:1 relationship.

Right, as I said, "the implementation is different, even if they're based on the same sample set."

 

21 minutes ago, jimkost2002 said:

I can absolutely say the SV APs -both 1 and 2 iterations are of a lower sample rate and fidelity in relationship to Kronos/Grandstage/Nautilus.

I doubt the sample rate is different, though. 

[jerrythek]

The SV products use an entirely different voice architecture design than the Kronos/Nautilus. That is certainly why they would be “derived”… the same PCM materials would have to be constructed in a different fashion. I don’t recall from the specs, but does the SV-2 stream samples? I know the SV-1 does not. So the very long samples in the Kronos would need to be edited to fit in the SV-2, with some loop implemented.

 

Jerry

[ElmerJFudd]

Regardless of the sample playback engine and its capabilities (or lack there of in comparison to the Kronos/Nautilus/Grandstage) the acoustic pianos on the SV2 are better sounding and better feeling to play than the SV1.  So clearly Korg got the message that it needed their attention.  

[Stokely]

iirc, one of the exciting features of the Grandstage was going to be an expanding Nord-ish library.  So far, every time I've heard that it never seems to happen.  In any case, always wise to buy what you see today, but still it was very disappointing to see this lack of commitment to a platform.  I guess having a pick-and-choose library is not cost-effective for these manufacturers, but it's definitely a "pro" in the Nord column to me.  Now, it doesn't offset their recent price hikes enough for me to pursue a Stage 3, but that's a different issue

[ElmerJFudd]

6 minutes ago, Stokely said:

iirc, one of the exciting features of the Grandstage was going to be an expanding Nord-ish library.  So far, every time I've heard that it never seems to happen.  In any case, always wise to buy what you see today, but still it was very disappointing to see this lack of commitment to a platform.  I guess having a pick-and-choose library is not cost-effective for these manufacturers, but it's definitely a "pro" in the Nord column to me.  Now, it doesn't offset their recent price hikes enough for me to pursue a Stage 3, but that's a different issue

The single knob velocity curve compression control, also unique! 
 

We’ve all seen it before, they have to sell a lot of units before we see firmware updates and additional features and sounds. 

[ProfD]

18 hours ago, 16251 said:

I don't know what the secret ingredient is but Korg IMHO doesn't do acoustic piano very well. Even with gigabytes and multi-samples.

interestingly,  Korg's M1 piano became so popular that it has become preset across manufacturers.😁

 

it's par for the course on a Keyboard forum to dive into the weeds when it comes to sampled sounds, features and functionality from one product to another. 

 

The technology has gotten incrementally better over time.  It will never be perfect underneath the fingertips and to the ears of some folks. 

 

However, talented and creative musicians have consistently made these tools work beyond its limitations.  Some of these folks are so good that they can turn a mundane sample into a multimillion dollar sound.

 

House music producers took the aforementioned M1 piano sound up the charts.  Timbaland extracted gold from an Ensoniq ASR10.  J. Dilla unearthed diamonds with an Akai MPC. 

 

A countless number of musicians have put the same  KBs being discussed in this thread on an X stand or in a in a shell and performed for millions of people. 

 

I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle regarding an real or perceived limitations of an instrument or sound. 

 

The objective should be to make best use of the tools available in either sound design or playing music or both.  😎

[AnotherScott]

9 minutes ago, ProfD said:

interestingly,  Korg's M1 piano became so popular that it has become preset across manufacturers.😁😎

 

Yes, Korg was first out of the gate with a decent affordable sampled piano. Before the M1, IIRC, the closest you got was a very pricey Kurzweil, or a sub-16-bit sample. It's one of the things that made the M1 a hit. And of course, once all the bands of the day were using it, it became a sound of its own that people would want. Though to quibble, I don't think I've seen an actual M1 patch on a non-Korg... Legally, I don't think any other manufacturer can sample an M1 (at least without being licensed from Korg) because the sounds themselves are copyrighted (something that can be done with sample-based sounds, but not other kinds of sounds that do not originate as audio recordings). 

[Stokely]

I remember someone brought an M1 into the studio at my college, I'd guess it was 1989 or 1990.  Everyone was going nuts over it.  The piano, the effects onboard, etc!  Ironically, thinking back now, we had some cool analog gear including an oberheim rack unit that nobody paid much attention to.  Analog was so outdated by then   

[ProfD]

9 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Though to quibble, I don't think I've seen an actual M1 patch on a non-Korg... Legally, I don't think any other manufacturer can sample an M1 (at least without being licensed from Korg) because the sounds themselves are copyrighted (something that can be done with sample-based sounds, but not other kinds of sounds that do not originate as audio recordings). 

Right.  A non-Korg manufacturer will not name the preset M1 Piano.😉

 

However, those of us who've been playing KBs a long time will immediately recognize a facsimile of that sound upon landing on it. 😁😎

[16251]

18 minutes ago, ProfD said:

I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle regarding an real or perceived limitations of an instrument or sound. 

 

The objective should be to make best use of the tools available in either sound design or playing music or both.  😎

I agree and I might get wrapped up in the sound but I'm not winning any Grammys but just want to have the most fun, the last thing I need is my brain wasting time reminding me that the sound is more fake than not. Nord and Korg IMO don't reach my needed threshold. Yamaha, Kawai and "FP4 circa" Roland do have the qualities I like to hear. There are some others. My PC88 didn't have many layers but I remember liking the sound and Casio IMO does acoustic piano pretty well (too bad they can't do Rhodes IMO.)

 

How the audience hears the acoustic piano sound (not my performance) is not my concern (ppl hear differently) but I do have an interesting observation. When I hear a Nord piano on live YT videos compared to hearing a Yamaha CP4 on video, I hear the Nord sounding more realistic, which contradicts my premise. I did buy a Nord Piano based on YT videos and sold it within first week. I tried every acoustic piano variant and they just all sounded similar.

[ProfD]

20 minutes ago, 16251 said:

My PC88 didn't have many layers but I remember liking the sound...

 

I did buy a Nord Piano based on YT videos and sold it within first week. I tried every acoustic piano variant and they just all sounded similar.

Back in the day, I bought a PC88MX as soon as I laid hands on it.  That thing was the best sounding DP on the block at the time. 

 

I've laid hands on Nord KBs many times.  I know they have a fan base too.  No matter how hard I try, I cannot warm up to it.  The sound is cold and sterile to my ears. 

 

I'd imagine that if I bought a Nord and took it home, I could possibly get that thing to loosen up and show a funky side.  Not worth the investment right now. Maybe I'll feel differently when it's time for me to take up residence in a nursing home.🤣😎

[AnotherScott]

39 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Right.  A non-Korg manufacturer will not name the preset M1 Piano.😉

 

However, those of us who've been playing KBs a long time will immediately recognize a facsimile of that sound upon landing on it. 😁😎

I didn't mean they don't name it M1, I mean they don't literally use an M1 sample. But yes, they may well program something that sounds similar.

 

This is in contrast to, for example, Rhodes sounds. They may not name them Rhodes for lack of ownership of the name, but they literally sample a Rhodes piano. Since the Rhodes piano sound is not, itself, a recording, it can be legally sampled. The Korg M1 piano sound is, itself, a recording, and presumably a copyrighted one, so unlike a Rhodes, Roland and Yamaha would not then be able to legitimately sample an actual M1. They would have to come up with their own similar sound "from scratch."

[Moonglow]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Yes, Korg was first out of the gate with a decent affordable sampled piano.

Some might argue it was the Ensoniq Mirage, although “decent” might be the disqualifying attribute. 😉

[AnotherScott]

1 minute ago, Moonglow said:

Some might argue it was the Ensoniq Mirage, although “decent” might be the disqualifying attribute. 😉

Right, that was one of the things I was thinking about with the "sub-16-bit" reference. The piano in the Mirage was 8-bit. And then there was the issue of load time if you wanted to access more than 3 sounds, IIRC... the M1 was pretty revolutionary. 

[ProfD]

14 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

The Korg M1 piano sound is, itself, a recording, and presumably a copyrighted one...

It's Friday so we're not going to split hairs or samples here.🤣

 

I cannot imagine how Korg would know that a manufacturer or music producer or anyone else was sampling their copyrighted piano sample. 😉

 

Coming up with a facsimile of that piano sample is definitely child's play with the right source material and a little DSP. 😎

[AnotherScott]

13 minutes ago, ProfD said:

I cannot imagine how Korg would know that a manufacturer or music producer or anyone else was sampling their copyrighted piano sample. 😉

 

But if you were Roland or Yamaha would you want to risk it? Especially since, as you say, coming up with a reasonable facsimile is probably not prohibitively difficult...