Time to Re-Think KB Rig?

[ProfD]

This thread was inspired in part by brotha @marino 's comment in the Period check of vintage madness thread:

 

Marino wrote "I'm in the process of rethinking my whole rig, so I'm glad to hear ideas and perspectives... but that's for another thread."

 

Any modern synth or KB workstation or DP has enough going on under the hood to create any type of sound we could want to play. 

 

For example, the ASM Hydrasynth contains the best of all worlds in terms of synth technology and features (polyphonic aftertouch, ribbon controller, modulation matrix, etc.).

 

Synth/workstation KBs from Yamaha, Roland, Korg and Kurzweil are capable of providing enough sounds to get through any type of gig and enough waveforms and synth parameters to create sounds.

 

For those who mainly rely on bread and butter sounds, the DP market has plenty of options to cover all of the bases in terms of player needs.

 

Choosing hardware or software or a hybrid approach is up to the individual.  But, the reality is almost any modern KB can consolidate a rig considerably.

 

Of course, none of this precludes those with disposable income from setting up their own version of a music store KB department.  🤣

 

The point is that a room or stage full of KBs is not a requirement to play a gig and/or to make a hit record.  1 or 2 KBs will suffice. 😎

[MAJUSCULE]

As much as this probably gets said every five years or so, I think we've crossed a threshold wherein truly great sounds are available in staggering quantities and in gig-ready packages more than ever before. There's still room for improvement and there isn't one board to rule them all, but the offerings from various companies, both the bigs and the boutiques, all tick so many boxes and, I feel, are raising the floor for acceptable bang-for-buck. Truly a golden age (despite chip shortages and supply chain issues). I'm also in the process of re-inventing/refreshing my rig, and it could easily last me twenty years if the parts hold up.

 

Course, if anyone wants to sell me their clunky old vintage boards at a friendly price, feel free to get in touch.  

[eric]

I've been doing all of my gigs with a single keyboard now for 10+ years. I occasionally have to be very creative or deal with small tradeoffs, though it's worth it to keep the rig simple and focus on doing it all with one keyboard.

[drawback]

30 minutes ago, eric said:

I've been doing all of my gigs with a single keyboard now for 10+ years. I occasionally have to be very creative or deal with small tradeoffs, though it's worth it to keep the rig simple and focus on doing it all with one keyboard.

 

Just what I was going to say. Being able to do it all with one keyboard was actually a goal of mine.

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, MAJUSCULE said:

As much as this probably gets said every five years or so...

True.  But, every time new KBs are released, it clears the memory cache.😁

 

Folks either forget 1) their current rig is still good enough or 2) the newest KBs have the same sounds as their older KBs.

 

Some KBs that are 10 years or older could probably use a refresh before it starts falling apart. 😎

[marino]

On 4/6/2022 at 6:14 PM, ProfD said:

The point is that a room or stage full of KBs is not a requirement to play a gig and/or to make a hit record.  1 or 2 KBs will suffice. 😎

 

Yeah, sure. Ahem. Sort of. Two small objections:

 

1) Using different sound sources stimulates creativity and arrangement ideas, and usually does sound better in the mix. (of course, having *too many* choices could block your workflow as well!)

2) Having a lot of bread-and-butter sounds is not my priority, at least in recent years, with the possible exception of piano. I have those covered enough for my present needs anyway. I'm less and less involved with pop/rock productions, and more interested in synthesis and sound design. So using different synths is a nice starting point to seek for new sounds and techniques.

 

But this just the polite answer. For the ugly truth, I have to dig a bit deeper.

 

In the early days - say, until year 2004 or so - I worked enough to have a more than decent arsenal of synths. I cut my programming teeth on things like Trident, Chroma, PPG, Matrix-12, K200/2500/2600, TG77, Wavestation, etc. So I was used to have a certain depth - and its associate complexity - at my disposal.
More recently, many aspects of my life changed. I had to cut a lot of corners, and in various waves, I was forced to sell several instruments, with hundreds of my patches on board, which I was still regularly using.

Not the end of the world, life goes on. I started some more serious use of software synths. But it hit me at a more subtle level than I would admit at the time. After a while, I reacted by getting new synths as soon as I could afford them, and sometimes even when I couldn't.

Now, a few years later, I'm finding myself having too many hardware synths - which means regular troubles with space and organization. Probably, a wiser balance of hardware and software would help.

I've been using Surge for a couple of years now. I first got it to teach synthesis at school, but it's an endless well of sound design possibilities, it sounds great, it keeps growing, and it's free! I have programmed some interesting stuff on it. Then there's Vital, Lion, Emergence, and other very deep instruments, which are covering most of my needs, at least in the digital realm.

 

I think I'll start by selling three or four of my present synths, especially the digital stuff - then decide whether or not to get one newer big instrument to replace them, or to stick with software. (that new shiny Iridium Keyboard is very tempting! But wow, it costs a lot)

I'd like to keep most of my analog synths, but one or two could go as well.

This is where I'm finding myself at this time... things could change, of course. Don't they always do?

 

 

 

 

[marino]

1 hour ago, eric said:

I've been doing all of my gigs with a single keyboard now for 10+ years.

 

Playing live is much less pleasant when you have to move and set more than a couple of instruments. Every time I could, I gigged with a single Studiologic 2001 or Roland XP80, plus a rack case with a couple of modules.

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, marino said:

Yeah, sure. Ahem. Sort of. Two small objections:

 

1) Using different sound sources stimulates creativity and arrangement ideas, and usually does sound better in the mix. (of course, having *too many* choices could block your workflow as well!)

 

2) Having a lot of bread-and-butter sounds is not my priority, at least in recent years, with the possible exception of piano. I have those covered enough for my present needs anyway. I'm less and less involved with pop/rock productions, and more interested in synthesis and sound design. So using different synths is a nice starting point to seek for new sounds and techniques.

 

In the early days - say, until year 2004 or so - I worked enough to have a more than decent arsenal of synths. I cut my programming teeth on things like Trident, Chroma, PPG, Matrix-12, K200/2500/2600, TG77, Wavestation, etc. So I was used to have a certain depth - and its associate complexity - at my disposal.

then decide whether or not to get one newer big instrument to replace them, or to stick with software. (that new shiny Iridium Keyboard is very tempting! But wow, it costs a lot)

I totally understand having cycled through various pieces of gear over several decades myself.

 

Over time, your musicianship, creativity and experience in synth programming and sound design is case in point. 

 

I believe you are one of a few people who could take ANY modern poly synth or KB workstation and extract gold from a sound design perspective. 

 

Between your foray into the ASM Hydrasynth and Surge, I think you're already on track to rethinking your KB rig.  The overpriced, er, Iridium would be icing on the cake.😁

 

@marino,  when the gear dust setles, I can see you with a piano, poly synth or two and a computer and you're all set.  That's more than 1 or 2 pieces but enough to stimulate creativity, arrangement ideas and mix well.

 

This is coming from a guy who's KB rig will eventually be a Rhodes and a Nautilus 73.😁😎

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, eric said:

I've been doing all of my gigs with a single keyboard now for 10+ years. I occasionally have to be very creative or deal with small tradeoffs, though it's worth it to keep the rig simple and focus on doing it all with one keyboard.

1 hour ago, drawback said:

 

Just what I was going to say. Being able to do it all with one keyboard was actually a goal of mine.

Between not wanting to take the time to do all the split programming in advance (and still sometimes running out of keys or unintentionally crossing a boundary), plus the security of emergency backup, I don't see much reason to focus on a single board for most uses. My stands (K&M 18880 or Invisible) are barely heavier if set up for two tiers than when set for one (at two tiers they are still lighter than most single tier boards, too). And the second boards themselves can be really light. My second board is usually something-teen lbs, but there are numerous useful boards that are under 10 lbs. But if I were taking mass transit, or having to get on or off the stage in under 5 minutes, yeah, one board makes sense even for me. And the capabilities of some of the available single boards (in conjunction with an increasingly easy ability to integrate an occasional sound from an iOS device if needed) has made this less and less of a compromise.

 

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

The point is that a room or stage full of KBs is not a requirement to play a gig...1 or 2 KBs will suffice. 😎

 

Yes, but I have found it surprisingly difficult to cover everything I want to do even with two keyboards, much less one (with the additional caveat that all boards must be under 30 lbs). My goal has typically been a nice feeling piano board on bottom, and above that, something good for organ (including 9 drawbar control) and synth (including aftertouch and at least some basic real-time programming/performance controls). And one board (preferably the top one) has to be good at sending LH bass to one output, and other typical bread-and-butter sounds out another, hopefully with at least 73 keys. It doesn't sound like it should be that hard. But it's pretty tricky to assemble, there aren't many options that don't significantly compromise one place or another (though the options are better now than they were a few years ago). But as has been discussed before, so much of the benefits there are for my own satisfaction, and would hardly be noticeable to an audience member.

 

 

[ProfD]

54 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Between not wanting to take the time to do all the split programming in advance (and still sometimes running out of keys or unintentionally crossing a boundary), plus the security of emergency backup, I don't see much reason to focus on a single board for most uses.

 

Yes, but I have found it surprisingly difficult to cover everything I want to do even with two keyboards, much less one (with the additional caveat that all boards must be under 30 lbs).  My goal has typically been a nice feeling piano board on bottom, and above that, something good for organ (including 9 drawbar control) and synth (including aftertouch and at least some basic real-time programming/performance controls). And one board (preferably the top one) has to be good at sending LH bass to one output, and other typical bread-and-butter sounds out another, hopefully with at least 73 keys. 

 

...so much of the benefits there are for my own satisfaction...

GAS feeds off the cocktail of KB player pre-existing conditions and hypochondria.  There is no vaccine for it.🤣 

 

Yet, that last statement sums it up perfectly.  There is a point in time in which a musician has a gear epiphany.  😎

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

Yet, that last statement sums it up perfectly.  There is a point in time in which a musician has a gear epiphany.  😎

 

I began this century's return to gigging doing most of my gigs with a Yamaha S30 over a Casio PX-310.

My upcoming gigs will probably mostly be a Kurzweil PC4-7 over a Yamaha YC73. (Maybe with a tiny Roland SE-02, because... why not.)

Will this change mean more gigs, better paying gigs, or happier audiences? Unlikely.

But I'll probably have more fun. :-)

 

Could I do most of these gigs with just one of the two boards? Sure. But why? The effort saved isn't great (in fact, I'd have to spend more time in pre-gig prep/setup), and the result will not be as satisfying.

[ElmerJFudd]

Right tool for the right job, or right vibe and tone for the style and instrument you’re into.  
 

It would be cool to gig a Hammond, Rhodes, Wurly and acoustic piano but entirely impractical in many ways.  Carry, stage room, setup breakdown, running from one to the other, not being able to split and layer.   No, digital solutions are the only way to go for most.  
 

That said - what about at home or studio.  It’s very cool to play the real thing.  But costly to acquire, maintain, refurbish “real” acoustic, electro mechanical and analogue instruments.  Not to mention needing space.  
 

Do how do we feel about digital facsimiles?  Digital instruments that do one job.  Like a digital Hammond, hybrid piano, digital Rhodes.   Is it worth it to invest in digital instruments that have similar limitations to the instruments they are inspired by?  Or do we expect a digital instrument to be able to take advantage of what makes digital more practical and capable?  More sounds and fx, ability to recall saved setups with splits layers etc.  

 

Or just accept software replaces hardware in so many areas - MainStage it is and be done with it. 

[vonnor]

22 hours ago, eric said:

I've been doing all of my gigs with a single keyboard now for 10+ years. I occasionally have to be very creative or deal with small tradeoffs, though it's worth it to keep the rig simple and focus on doing it all with one keyboard.

That works well for you, I can personally verify, but try doing "Feels Like the First Time" or "Rebel Yell" (with only 1 guitar in the band), without having to switch patches back and forth during the tune. Switching patches mid song is a plague on my existence and I avoid it at all costs unless absolutely necessary. I guess I'm old skool like Wakeman. The Foreigner song I have organ and the high arpeggio split on the Kronos, and both of the lead synth lines (on VSTs) split on the bottom board. Rebel Yell is almost as bad.

 

I think you just can't give up your vertical-pivot action stage gimmick ... lol

 

~ Bill C.

[ProfD]

16 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Right tool for the right job, or right vibe and tone for the style and instrument you’re into.  
 

Do how do we feel about digital facsimiles?  

 

Or just accept software replaces hardware in so many areas - MainStage it is and be done with it. 

The *right* instrument is subjective according to the needs and desires of the musician playing it.

 

Digital facsimiles have definitely gotten a lot better in getting closer to the sound of the originals.

 

The extra features digitals provide in terms of a variety sounds, FX, split/layer, etc. in one box are icing on the proverbial cake.

 

IMO, the vibe of playing an electromechanical or a vintage synth on a digital is more elusive. 

 

That's easy enough to avoid...do NOT play a digital next to an original.😁😎

[MathOfInsects]

I've bounced back and forth between one board and two for most of the last two decades, but the greatest majority of gigs--by far--have been on one. Sometimes it's fun to jump "up top" for a solo or stab, but often it's even more fun for me to figure out how to pull it all off on one board. If only Nord would abandon those useless fixed split points...

The two or three times in those decades that I've brought a third board, it's been "because I can." IIRC, one of those couple of times I actually brought four.

The couple of guys in town who bring a different board for each sound they use--Hammond chop, Rhodes, DP, maybe a Moog too--do get some work because of the stage optics. But they are also hell to mic right and always seem to be struggling in the mix. Plus each gig is 2 hours longer for them than it is for me. I don't see how that's a win for Team Music.

Beyond that, the only guys I see bringing stacks are...shall we say, "seasoned" players. 

[MAJUSCULE]

I don't love the schlep, and certainly do play many gigs with only one board (and even more rehearsals). But damn is it ever nice to be playing something on a solid hammer action and reach up to slide a big B3 chord into a chorus while continuing a one-handed piano part. Say, the chorus in Fuck You. I can definitely play the tune on one board and have several times, but it's much more satisfying on two. Which is why I just pulled the trigger on a CP73 to slide under my NS3C. Don't love hauling the 88 key FP-4 around all the time, as much as it is a pretty light package itself. Just a little long and cumbersome, especially with wheels on the end of the case.

[Tusker]

23 hours ago, ProfD said:

The point is that a room or stage full of KBs is not a requirement to play a gig and/or to make a hit record.  1 or 2 KBs will suffice. 😎

 

The person who influenced me in the minimalism aesthetic was David Sancious. Everywhere I looked he appeared to be delivering world class results with one keyboard! I also liked how comfortable his ergonomics were. The hand position was always correct, the pedals were easy to reach, because ... one keyboard!

 

Of course, he plays in highly programmed environments where every timbre is pre-selected. He is not playing wildly improvised music.

 

Secondly, there can be a ergonomic musical value in multiple keyboards, like having the same sound on two different manuals of an organ and playing alternating comping patterns. Or using a trailing thumb on the lower keyboard. that sort of thing. Or this kind of thing ... you'd rather be playing nested patterns on two keyboards than doing the hand-over-hand like Tony Banks is doing here ...

 

 

 

 

[drawback]

1 hour ago, MAJUSCULE said:

just pulled the trigger on a CP73 to slide under my NS3C.

Let us know when you get it and how it works for you (on the appropriate thread, of course) 👍

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, MAJUSCULE said:

 I just pulled the trigger on a CP73 to slide under my NS3C. Don't love hauling the 88 key FP-4 around all the time, as much as it is a pretty light package itself. Just a little long and cumbersome

That sounds like a great combo. 

 

The FP4 has the full 88 and speakers which can be handy, and the shallow depth lets you keep the two sets of keys close, which is nice. But besides the lesser length, I think the 5 lb lower weight will also be very noticeable. And of course the strong variety of high quality pianos and EPs, and the interface. I really like the CP operational design. I also like its EPs better than Nord's, while the nice MIDI implementation should give you your choice of Yamaha or Nord acoustic pianos to play from those keys as desired, if you'd like. I think that's a really strong lightweight pairing, especially if you like an immediate hands-on interface.

[Morrissey]

On 4/7/2022 at 11:08 AM, MAJUSCULE said:

Which is why I just pulled the trigger on a CP73 to slide under my NS3C.

 

@MAJUSCULE - Seeing $200 off the CP73 at several online vendors.  Here's hoping you got a great deal or can wrangle some after-the-fact price matching!

[cphollis]

One master keyboard, plus additional weighted action.  Stereo + internal effects straight out to the DI.   One control surface with embedded set lists to rule them all.  Three pedals.  One stand, one seat, a few cables.  That's been my rig for several years, and can support being in very different bands at the same time.  Amplification and monitoring varies, depending.

 

Out of literally hundreds of songs and many genres, it only comes up a bit short on a few things: synth-centric music, solo horns and similar.  Not worth the additional complexity to close those gaps for a weekend gigging band, so ...

 

All my experimentation happens on an iPad these days, it's very agile that way.  And that Hydrasynth looks awfully compelling at some point.

[MAJUSCULE]

20 hours ago, Morrissey said:

 

@MAJUSCULE - Seeing $200 off the CP73 at several online vendors.  Here's hoping you got a great deal or can wrangle some after-the-fact price matching!

 

Unfortunately, not the relevant vendors for me 🙃 Still $2,599 CAD across the board here. Although apparently some Yamaha gear saw a price increase recently, but not the CP73. However, I apparently will be getting a bit of a price reduction as there was a cosmetic issue when the salesperson tried to remove the price tag. So we'll see what I get there, should be picking it up tomorrow or Friday.

[kenheeter]

I went the opposite way, I have a Nord Stage 2 EX76 and a YC61.  Haven't gigged them together yet but soon.... I'm very interested to hear about the CP73, I had ordered one but switched to YC61 when a deal came up. 

[wineandkeyz]

On 4/7/2022 at 11:21 AM, vonnor said:

That works well for you, I can personally verify, but try doing "Feels Like the First Time" or "Rebel Yell" (with only 1 guitar in the band), without having to switch patches back and forth during the tune. Switching patches mid song is a plague on my existence and I avoid it at all costs unless absolutely necessary. I guess I'm old skool like Wakeman. The Foreigner song I have organ and the high arpeggio split on the Kronos, and both of the lead synth lines (on VSTs) split on the bottom board. Rebel Yell is almost as bad.

 

I think you just can't give up your vertical-pivot action stage gimmick ... lol

 

~ Bill C.

 

I almost always use two boards, a semi-weighted action over a weighted action (my current rig is a Roland Jupiter-80 over a Yamaha S70XS). I could probably get by with one, but having two gives me more flexibility and enough redundancy that I could get through a show even if one of the boards goes tits up.

 

As MOI said, I also like to bring a clonewheel (currently a Hammond SK Pro 73) when we play larger stages or theater venues "because I can." Playing B3 parts is just more satisfying on a board with waterfall keys and a more authentic tone.

[Stokely]

I am oscillating (no pun intended) between one and two keyboards these days.   I may keep that going, with the "smaller" gigs using my Forte 7 only on an Omega Pro stand.  I really like how open that rig is.   My two keyboard rig is the Forte  with a Modx on top, the main thing that top keyboard is doing is acting as a controller for B-3X on an ipad.  My stand for two keyboards is a Spider pro.   My poor Summit has been squeezed out, as I'm finding that both the MODX and Forte are quite capable at doing decent synth sounds (especially the Forte).   Are they as good and easy to program for synth sounds as the Summit? Heck no...but most of our songs aren't synthy in the first place.

Even for one-keyboard gigs I'll probably still bring the MODX in the car as a backup.

The question becomes: is one keyboard that much easier than two, as certainly you give up some playing flexibility (for example, having a piano on the bottom and organ on top is much nicer to play than splitting these on one keyboard).   

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

The question becomes: is one keyboard that much easier than two

 

Part of that depends on the stand. With the Invisible or K&M stands that I've used on probably every gig this century, the stand is only minimally heavier, no more difficult to carry, and no more time to set up for two boards than it is for one. With some other stands, the second tier is more of a hassle to deal with.

 

Part of it depends on the size and weight of the second board.  Whether it will be the thing that requires one more trip to the car. How much time and effort it is to carry in, to take out of its case and put up on the stand before the gig, and the reverse on the way out. (In almost all cases, my second board has been under 20 lbs... I've even used my Microstation which is under 6!)

 

Wiring time is also subject to a number of variables. Do you run stereo? Even if you do, would you be fine running at least the second board in mono? Does your main board have an input you can plug your second board into? A single power cable and a single signal cable of a known length that only has to go from top board to bottom board is less of a nuisance than running stereo cables to a mixer/amp with cables that need to be long enough to allow for the farthest distance they may need to run to. Also, is the second board sufficiently useful for your needs as is? Or would you necessarily need to plug expression and/or sustain pedals into it? (I play mono, and more often than not, have connected no pedals to the second board, unless it's a clonewheel.)

 

From all that, you can see, I've kept my second board "additional effort" to a minimum. But that might not work for everyone. Some people might say, if they're not going to connect pedals to their second board and run it in stereo, they'd just as soon do everything from their first board which won't have those limitations. Or they may feel that no sufficiently light second board will do what they need from it as well as the heavier primary board they're already using.

 

There are all the well-known benefits of two boards... piano and organ actions, redundancy, the fact that pretty much no one board is great at everything you're likely to want, the ability to play freely without worry about accidentally crossing a split point. The biggest argument in favor of a single board, I think, is that it's a time-saver for setup and breakdown, and I've mentioned ways to minimize the added time. But I think people may not always recognize the potential time savings of having two boards. It varies with your repertoire, the sounds you use, etc. But lots of people seem to spend lots of pre-gig time setting up custom splits for tons of songs. I do almost none of that. As long as I can grab one sound I need on one board, and the other sound I need on the other, I usually don't have to set up anything in advance, it's a significant time saver, at least compared to most single boards, where there's no way to mix and match sounds on the fly nearly as easily as you can on two boards. And again, you don't have to worry about staying within the split boundaries as you play.

 

Though there is also an aesthetic issue, which gets back to your comment, "I really like how open that rig is." And it's a funny thing, psychologically, that you can think it's a cooler presentation if you have lots of gear up there with you, or you can just as easily think it's cooler to do the gig with as little up there as possible!

[ProfD]

9 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Though there is also an aesthetic issue...

Many moons ago, I may have written a thread about this very issue.  It's a very valid point.

 

An acoustic piano and to a lesser extent, electromechanical KB and vintage synths carried stage presence.  It *looked* like the KB player meant business. 

 

Today's KB technology packs all of the sounds, features and functionalities but most slabs still require some effort to make it attractive from a stage presence perspective. 😎

[kaptainkeys]

53 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Today's KB technology packs all of the sounds, features and functionalities but most slabs still require some effort to make it attractive from a stage presence perspective. 😎

I think you may be looking for a keytar if you need stage presence.

[ProfD]

3 minutes ago, GotKeys said:

I think you may be looking for a keytar if you need stage presence.

Nah mayne...a strap on just looks ridiculous no matter which way you sling it. 🤣😎

[MathOfInsects]

3 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Nah mayne...a strap on just looks ridiculous no matter which way you sling it. 🤣😎

Careful. My very first post on KC was a one-liner about keytars, and there are ignore lists I'm STILL on because of it.