News from Roland: Fantom 06/07/08

[AnotherScott]

On 3/17/2022 at 4:28 PM, GovernorSilver said:

I'm not sure what he means by "all new Supernatural piano" - like whether the 0 is on a different, possibly newer OS than the high-end Fantom, or if they implemented a version of Supernatural (modeling) specific to the 0 series, or if the source sample files are just different.

 

They introduced a new SuperNATURAL Piano about a month ago, downloadable for the new Fantom, and shipping as part of the pre-load on the 0. It's an addition to the original SN piano, not a replacement for it. (Both are pre-installed in the 0.)

 

 

[AnotherScott]

Questions for anyone who has one...

 

... Am I correct that the 8 knobs (above the sliders) are regular pots (rather than endless encoders)? And the 6 under the screen are endless?

 

... Has anyone found how the 8 sliders are assignable when used for the normally 9-slider tonewheel organ control? I noticed that there is a button to change the sliders from 1-8 to 9-16, I was wondering if that might be a way to get to a 9th slider?

 

... Can you start a rhythm pattern going and have it continue to play as you call up different scenes?

[miden]

just found a significant bug though - when trying to edit scenes and zones it keeps  "losing" the sustain pedal....got to unplug and replug it to get it to work again! It's a new product line so not much going about online at the moment - will try Roland but all I get from there is the sound of crickets usually...they sometimes take weeks to get back.

 

EDIT: IN fact make that even when changing scenes, it loses the sustain pedal...when  checking the edit screens, the pedal is set to on in all of them...so I'm thinking this is a bug....cannot imagine it is "designed" behaviour.

 

Have reported it to Roland.

[miden]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Questions for anyone who has one...

 

... Am I correct that the 8 knobs (above the sliders) are regular pots (rather than endless encoders)? And the 6 under the screen are endless?

 

... Has anyone found how the 8 sliders are assignable when used for the normally 9-slider tonewheel organ control? I noticed that there is a button to change the sliders from 1-8 to 9-16, I was wondering if that might be a way to get to a 9th slider?

 

... Can you start a rhythm pattern going and have it continue to play as you call up different scenes?

 

1. Yes, well sort of - the top ones are...the bottom ones, its hard to tell as they only control as far as the displayed parameters on the screen go.

2. haven't got that far yet

3. not that I have found - VERY easy and quick to assign the four Rhythm Pattern ops to the pads, but the rhythm stops when selecting a new scene. You can change sounds within the scene with the rhythm pattern playing though...seems if IN the scene with rhythm assigned you can do most everything while it's playing. Just not change the scene itself.

[GovernorSilver]

Dang, Scott, nothing gets by you.

 

You'd be a good lawyer, if you aren't one already.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, miden said:

the rhythm stops when selecting a new scene. You can change sounds within the scene with the rhythm pattern playing though...seems if IN the scene with rhythm assigned you can do most everything while it's playing. Just not change the scene itself.

 

That's not ideal for me, but probably still workable for most purposes.

 

If you're saving a beat for a particular song, the fact that you can save it in, essentially, a bank of 15 other sounds (which can be put in keyboard switch groups to be played individually or in split/layered groups) should cover your needs, few songs need more than 15 sounds in them!

 

In my case, though, I have lots of songs for which I use the same basic beat (just possibly varying tempo), so ideally, I'd want to be able to call up the beat, and then independently pick whatever sounds I might need for the song at hand, as I need them. I was able to do this on the PC4... I could start a beat, and then change to any Program I wanted, without having to pre-define a set to choose from (but they would have to be Programs, not Multis).

 

I wonder if there might be a way to do something similar here...  i.e. while playing, even though you can't change to a different Scene, you might be able to easily change one of the Tones in that Scene to some other Tone, still without interrupting the beat (or another part you may be playing with your other hand in another zone)?

 

1 hour ago, GovernorSilver said:

You'd be a good lawyer, if you aren't one already.

 

Funny, my parents said the same thing! I think because I was a good arguer... and perhaps relentless. ;-)

[AnotherScott]

Okay, I've created a chart of key comparison points between Fantom-0, MODX, and PC4. Maybe people will find it helpful. But also, please let me know if you have any corrections, can fill in any blanks, or have other key differentiating points to suggest.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iQtFcxZ_BDkwn9Onr7JsEM0adTvccxBAsplEmdSuGjo/edit?usp=sharing

[miden]

narrowed down that sustain pedal bug to the "half-pedaling" option (in global under pedals) there are no issues when that is set to a bog standard sustain, but when on (as Roland name it) continuous, even changing a sound within a scene (for eg the Pianos Scene C-1) which lists several different pianos under one scene. Change from one to another and you lose the sustain pedal function.

 

Oh and this is using the Roland Sustain pedal...

 

Reported to Roland, but who knows how long it will take them to acknowledge, let alone fix, it! I mean one can STILL use a standard sustain function, but....

[Sean M. H.]

Quick impressions after a very (VERY) short time with the new board...I had no intentions to unpack the Fantom 07 tonight.  I was planning to open the box, retrieve the manual, and have some reading material for my lunchbreak tomorrow...but...who was I kidding?

 

So a couple of macro statements before I get into specifics...am I "wowed" at first listen?  No....did I expect to be?  Absolutely not!...I'm not sure why anyone would, unless they are coming from a rompler that is generations old and/or this is their first prosumer-level board.  We are talking about a board that is a cheaper version of a flagship which is largely a compilation of Roland's older sound sources from 20+ years ago.  To be clear, I am not knocking Roland at all!  This is essentially where all (most) of the manufacturers are right now!  I also have a PC4, and--aside from the main Piano and EP sounds--much of the sound content is blatently leftover from the PC3 and Kore64 days...the Montage/MODX utilizes AWM2 and FM...so basically a Motif ES engine from the early 2000s and an even older DX7 engine from the 80s 😆 (obviously I'm exaggerating for effect, but still...).  Korg has the Nautilus, which is a streamlined/repackaged Kronos, which IIRC borrowed a lot from the OASYS...you get the point: we just don't see quantum leaps from one release to the next at this point.  You could argue the last true "game-changer" was the OASYS--and that was $8000.  If you're a pessimist, you'd probably say these manufacturers are getting lazy; if you're an optimist, you'd say these boards have evolved to the point of diminishing returns and we have a glutton of usable, affordable options nowadays.  I guess I fall into the latter category.

 

With all that said, my last macro statement/takeaway from my 20 minutes with the board: I do believe this will be a great replacement/upgrade for my FA-07.  A couple of notes for context: 1) I got a couple hundred dollars off, so I essentially got this for the same price I paid for the FA-07 in 2018...2) My FA-07 has one key that requires extra pressure, and also the pitch stick seems to only bend the notes by about 90% in the negative direction, so those are factors as well...

 

-------------------

Keybed:

 

For some reason, the keys seem lighter and/or smaller than the FA-07. If I'm not mistaken, the FA-07 was marketed as semi-weighted...so that may make sense.  If that's the case, I really can't call it a pro or con, just a difference.  The key size shouldn't really be subjective; they're either smaller than the FA-07 or they're not.  I haven't measured them or anything, but if they are in fact the same size, that probably means 1)the difference in weight is effecting my perception of the size, 2) the fulcrum or other variable of the action is making them seem smaller, or 3) it's all in my head...In any case, I'm not saying the action is "bad" persay.  By the end of the 20 minutes I spent with the board, I was comfortable with it--I tend not to be particularly snobby about action though, so YMMV.

‐--------------------

Sounds:

The sounds are about what I expected.  There are more and better Pianos and EPs than in my FA-07 for sure.  The organ also sounds somewhat better, but it will require tweaking as others have said.  Ootb, they tend to have too much distortion and also leakage/noise for my liking.  But once I reduced these parameters, things were already sounding pretty good.   Brass - there were a few very usable sounds here that are not found on the FA-07.  I felt this category was lacking in the FA, and while still not a strong suit in the Fantom, a step in the right directionfor my needs (big, ballsy horns for gospel and funk/soul, as opposed to hyper-realistic orchestral or anything like that).  String sounds are very good; I think a lot of these were in the FA-07 though.  

 

Though I think they generally sound good, l really don't understand the whole "SuperNATURAL" thing that Roland pushes so hard.  What exactly is the big deal about these sounds?  They are modeled, right?  Normally, when sounds are modeled, that also implies a great deal of tweakability of said model...but aside from the organ, that's not really the case with Roland.  Again, not criticizing the sounds here--I just don't understand it conceptually. 

 

The strongest sound category is probably the synth sounds in the Fantom.  I didn't even graze the surface of these, but suffice to say there are tons of great synth sounds in this thing, and with the amount of controllers onboard (yes, aftertouch would have been amazing too), this shapes up to be a great "solo" synth on top of a weighted slab of your choice.

 

The weakest point as far as sounds were definitely the guitars...but they are also (arguably) the least used category for a lot of keyboardists (including me)...still a bit disappointing.  I feel like some older Rolands (maybe the Fantom X?) had better guitars, with articulations, hammer-ons, etc...but maybe that's revisionist history?

 

One thing I haven't yet done is an A/B between the Fantom-0 and the FA...judging by patch names, there is quite a bit of overlap in some areas.  So it would be really interesting if two of the same patches sound exactly the same...or if other differences (Zencore, DACs, FX engine, etc) make a noticeable difference.

---------------------

Other:

The build quality seems about on par with the FA...which is to say very lightweight and plasticky, for better (portability) or worse (durability). It actually seems even lighter than the FA-07, subjectively...not sure what the specs say though...

All the knobs and sliders actually feel pretty solid though. 

 

The screen is a bit smaller than I expected, but I haven't noticed any responsiveness issues or anything.  I have long, somewhat thin fingers, for context. 

 

The Motion Pad thing seems pretty cool at first glance.  Didn't have much time to explore it, but the idea of morphing between four sounds/zones at will is pretty nice.  I remember being intrigued by this sort of thing way back when the V-Synth was doing something similar.

 

Haven't had time to assess workflow, PC integration, sequencing or a million other things yet.

[AnotherScott]

A while back, there was an interesting discussion about the possibility of loading model expansion sounds into any ZEN-Core keyboard, even if that keyboard did not support that particular model expansion... it's at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/179260-21-roland-personal-model-expansions-fantom-jupiterx-and-2/

 

I'm wondering if this means it may be possible to load, for example, Jupiter 8 model expansion sounds (e.g. created on your computer via Roland Cloud/Zenology) into the Fantom-0, without buying the $150 expansion. You wouldn't be able to edit them on the Fantom-0 without buying the expansion, but as long as you're okay with doing all your editing on the computer, it sounds like you'd at least still have the ability to call up the sounds from the keyboard for performance. It's an intriguing possibility. It's not necessarily a money-saver... you can buy the $150 expansion once, or you can have it on your computer in a membership that costs $99 or $199 a year. But if you're going to have the membership anyway, and you don't need to be able to do the programming on the board itself, maybe this is a way to essentially pay for the functionality once instead of twice.

 

[Aynsley Green]

On 3/29/2022 at 11:07 AM, AnotherScott said:

Okay, I've created a chart of key comparison points between Fantom-0, MODX, and PC4. Maybe people will find it helpful. But also, please let me know if you have any corrections, can fill in any blanks, or have other key differentiating points to suggest.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iQtFcxZ_BDkwn9Onr7JsEM0adTvccxBAsplEmdSuGjo/edit?usp=sharing

Nice one Scott, thank you!

[Fleer]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

A while back, there was an interesting discussion about the possibility of loading model expansion sounds into any ZEN-Core keyboard, even if that keyboard did not support that particular model expansion... it's at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/179260-21-roland-personal-model-expansions-fantom-jupiterx-and-2/

 

I'm wondering if this means it may be possible to load, for example, Jupiter 8 model expansion sounds (e.g. created on your computer via Roland Cloud/Zenology) into the Fantom-0, without buying the $150 expansion. You wouldn't be able to edit them on the Fantom-0 without buying the expansion, but as long as you're okay with doing all your editing on the computer, it sounds like you'd at least still have the ability to call up the sounds from the keyboard for performance. It's an intriguing possibility. It's not necessarily a money-saver... you can buy the $150 expansion once, or you can have it on your computer in a membership that costs $99 or $199 a year. But if you're going to have the membership anyway, and you don't need to be able to do the programming on the board itself, maybe this is a way to essentially pay for the functionality once instead of twice.

 

Would love to know too, as I have an RD-88 and a Zen Pro sub. 

[Sean M. H.]

Day 2 thoughts:

 

Played my Fantom 07 again tonight after work for about 20-25 minutes...

 

I'm a bit hung up on the action...I mentioned after day 1 that the action is light, but that after 20 minutes, I felt comfortable with it.  The problem is that today, that "counter" seemed to reset!  So rather than feeling comfortable with the action as I did when I left it last night, it still felt uncomfortably light again and took some time to get used to! 

 

For context, my previous boards were mainly a Korg TR76 (kinda like a Triton Le) with synth keys and aftertouch, a MOXF8 and Casio PX-320 (obviously weighted), the FA-07 (semiweighted), Numa Compact 2X, and a Novation X-station (don't recall whether they marketed that as synth or semi-weighted)...the Fantom 07 seems to be the lightest action I've ever owned--subjectively (I'm not playing them side by side).

 

This weekend will probably determine whether I stick with this long term or not.  I'll have time to dig in, start programming sounds, and most importantly: play the keys for hours instead of minutes.  If I am still feeling uncomfortable by that point, I might have to cut bait...

 

On a positive note, everything else about this board I would say is either damn impressive, or at the very least: satisfactory.  So much so, that (if I can't come around with the action of the 07) I would even consider rearranging my rig...getting a Fantom 08 for my bottom board and swapping out my PC4 for something else on top (maybe a K2700 or PC4-7?)....my only beef with the Fantom 08 is that I don't like the pitch wheels beside the keys instead of on top for an 88--it adds 6" or so to the footprint of the board (guess they didn't really have a choice in this case though, since they implemented both wheels and stick)

 

 

[AnotherScott]

22 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

Brass - there were a few very usable sounds here that are not found on the FA-07.  I felt this category was lacking in the FA, and while still not a strong suit in the Fantom, a step in the right directionfor my needs (big, ballsy horns for gospel and funk/soul, as opposed to hyper-realistic orchestral or anything like that).

Fantom-0 has SuperNATURAL brass, FA did not.

 

22 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

String sounds are very good; I think a lot of these were in the FA-07 though.  

FA has SuperNATURAL ensemble strings, but not solo strings; Fantom-0 has both.

 

 

22 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

Though I think they generally sound good, l really don't understand the whole "SuperNATURAL" thing that Roland pushes so hard.  What exactly is the big deal about these sounds?  They are modeled, right?  Normally, when sounds are modeled, that also implies a great deal of tweakability of said model...but aside from the organ, that's not really the case with Roland.  Again, not criticizing the sounds here--I just don't understand it conceptually. 

The SuperNATURAL acoustic instrument sounds primarily use modeling to replicate certain behaviors that go beyond what can be done with straight sample playback, often ones that vary with how you play. For example, try the SuperNATURAL Trumpet. It's a polyphonic sound when you play chords, but play a whole step trill, and it will give you the effect of a trumpet playing that trill (rather than adding a second note). Or use the lever to bend the pitch up... it will do a trumpet-like chromatic climb, rather than an unnatural slide. Or on the Marcato Strings, the attack and release will vary with the speed of your playing. See pages 49-51 of the parameter guide for some other examples.

 

 

22 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

One thing I haven't yet done is an A/B between the Fantom-0 and the FA...judging by patch names, there is quite a bit of overlap in some areas.  So it would be really interesting if two of the same patches sound exactly the same...or if other differences (Zencore, DACs, FX engine, etc) make a noticeable difference.

The Fantom-0 and the FA both include the XV-5080 sound set, so there are those sounds in common. The FA also included some SuperNATURAL Acoustic sounds... some of them are also in the Fantom-0, some are not.

 

 

 

[ABECK]

9 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

my only beef with the Fantom 08 is that I don't like the pitch wheels beside the keys instead of on top for an 88--it adds 6" or so to the footprint of the board (guess they didn't really have a choice in this case though, since they implemented both wheels and stick)

 

 

 

Speaking of the wheels.  Are either spring loaded (like a pitch wheel with 0 at the center), or are they both mod wheels?

[miden]

26 minutes ago, ABECK said:

 

Speaking of the wheels.  Are either spring loaded (like a pitch wheel with 0 at the center), or are they both mod wheels?

Pitch wheel is sprung. Mod wheel is not.

[ABECK]

Thanks - interesting that they would do that when they already have a spring loaded pitch stick.  I'm assuming the left wheel can be assigned to a source other than pitch?

[miden]

2 hours ago, ABECK said:

Thanks - interesting that they would do that when they already have a spring loaded pitch stick.  I'm assuming the left wheel can be assigned to a source other than pitch?

 

Yes as far as I know. Had a bit of a play with the controls and it can be assigned to any CC (including aftertouch apparently) They are just named wheel 1 and 2, rather than pitch and modulation specifically.

[miden]

just discovered why the organ sounded so shite - I was hearing the rompler ones....found out that the Virtual Tone Wheel engine (VTW) is ONLY available on Zone 2 - go figure??

 

Sounds much better!

[ABECK]

Ah, that makes more sense.  While not the best, the VTW is still way better than rompler quality.  

[jimkost2002]

Do we know if the touchscreen is the same size as that of the “big” Fantom?

Or is it slightly smaller? 
I haven’t been able to find anything in the published specs, photos or Yootoob to determine either way.

Thanks in advance!

[miden]

1 hour ago, jimkost2002 said:

Do we know if the touchscreen is the same size as that of the “big” Fantom?

Or is it slightly smaller? 
I haven’t been able to find anything in the published specs, photos or Yootoob to determine either way.

Thanks in advance!

 

Nope a tad smaller - 5 and a bit inches compared to (I think) about 7 in the "full" fantom

[jimkost2002]

Thanks, miden, much appreciated!

[llatham]

17 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

Day 2 thoughts:

 

Played my Fantom 07 again tonight after work for about 20-25 minutes...

 

I'm a bit hung up on the action...I mentioned after day 1 that the action is light, but that after 20 minutes, I felt comfortable with it.  The problem is that today, that "counter" seemed to reset!  So rather than feeling comfortable with the action as I did when I left it last night, it still felt uncomfortably light again and took some time to get used to! 

 

Hi Sean,

 

I've just seen the announcement so I'm playing catch-up with all this.

 

I have an FA-06 and love it. Except for two things: 1. The black keys will send a velocity of 127 if you breathe on them. I actually have a Roland A-800 that I at first thought was the same keybed but I was playing them together once and noticed the difference in sound. I played some stuff into a DAW and looked at the velocity and lo and behold the A-800 would rarely get up to 126 and I had to beat the death out of it get to 127. But the FA will do it with barely a hard strike - like a normal accented note. This is a known issue and there's no fix for it - the velocity curves do little, and all you can do is set the velocity sensitivity to be exponential up to the top velocity, not "compress it down" so to speak. The white keys are less problematic. When the 07 finally came out I was considering that.

 

2. The other big issue for me is that the keys are all "shaved" in each dimension as compared to most of the other synths I've played my entire life (as well as other controllers). The A-800 actually shares this characteristic. It means your fingers ride high on the black keys, making less leverage on them (maybe this is why they made them so sensitive...) and I the sloped shoulders on the black keys, while making it easy to do grace notes off of, means there is less direct surface are on top. It also seems very easy to accidentally pull down an adjacent black key when playing a white key. My technique is not fabulous, but I do fine on other controllers and both eh A-800 and the FA-06 give me the same issue and they have the same keys.

 

It is amazing, but drives me insane that this is basically the same price as the FA was when I bought it - so what corners did they cut...

 

But it's like an FA with all the features the FA owners complained about not having (mapped samples, drawbar control maybe, more knobs, more wheels, etc.). Basically it looks like the hybrid of an FA and a Fantom, with FA price and build and features from the Fantom series (obviously from the name).

 

So despite the hit I'd take on selling the FA, I would totally get this if the keys are not "shaved" and it doesn't have the issue with the Black Keys.

 

I know you got the 07 to try so it might not be a fair comparison but at least I'd have a reference point to know if there's anything amiss with the 07, then the 06 is even more likely to have it...

 

BTW, I actually use aftertouch quite a bit and my A-800 has it. I love it but I know I could use a controller with AT or assign it to a pedal or control if I really needed it.

 

But basically I can't even really use piano sounds on the FA with any expressiveness at all. I know it's not a weighted 88 of course, but at the same time my scale shouldn't go f FSHARP g GSHARP A ASHARP when I play with the same pressure...

[llatham]

17 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

 

This weekend will probably determine whether I stick with this long term or not.  I'll have time to dig in, start programming sounds, and most importantly: play the keys for hours instead of minutes.  If I am still feeling uncomfortable by that point, I might have to cut bait...

 

Sean, another question:

 

One thing i would have liked to have had on the FA is the ability to assign the 6 matrix knobs to different channels or parts.

 

For example, I want Piano on part 1, and Strings on part 2. And I want to assign knob 1 (or slider 1) to the volume/expression of the piano, and knob/slider 2 to the Strings - so that way  I can simply turn up or down either part to "fade in the strings" for example, and then "fade out the piano" so I can have either individually, or both layered, and adjust what percentage of each I have.

 

This is not something you can do on the FA.

 

I wonder if the pad modes are the same as the FA too - I actually use my pads to select between 16 sounds within the same studio set.

[llatham]

4 hours ago, miden said:

 

Yes as far as I know. Had a bit of a play with the controls and it can be assigned to any CC (including aftertouch apparently) They are just named wheel 1 and 2, rather than pitch and modulation specifically.

This is what I figured.

 

Is there a "quick assign" like the FA - you would hold down Shift and move the control element (Wheel 1 for example) and it would bring up the screen of things you could assign to it and you select from there.

 

 

[llatham]

On 3/24/2022 at 10:16 PM, Sean M. H. said:

Semi-OT re: the patch remain and workflow...while the Fantoms (original and new) are undeniably more powerful in that regard, in practice, I have found my FA-07 to be incredibly flexible in its own right.  In addition to the default mode, where each pad corresponds with one of the 16 sounds (so you're playing one sound at a time based on the last pad pressed), it also has a mode where each pad let's you activate multiple of the 16 sounds at once...

I love this on my FA. In some cases, I'll put multiple instruments I need in different octaves with them split up.

 

Then when I press 1 pad, all 4 of those will get selected. Then I can press pad 2 and a separate set of 4 sounds could be selected. Really super useful. And one of those sounds can be duplicated on another part so on one pad it could be limited to the lowest octave, but on the next pad it could cover the entire range (and be in a different octave, etc.).

 

How do the Fantoms implement this?

 

I did come up with another HATE of my FA - that sounds have baked on MFX that you can't turn on and off outside of being on the screen.

 

I don't want to have to save a non-trem version of an EP and a trem versio for ones where the Mod level or a button can't engage it. Or lead sounds with delay I want to turn off. Or turn off and on on the fly - you just simply can't do it without saving two versions of the sound. I had read before that the older Fantoms allowed this (yet people complained about it) so I'm curious about the Fantom-0 line to see how it deals with this.

 

The main attraction for an Fantom-06 for me would be a keybed that doesn't have the black key issue I explained in my other post. If II can use the pads to switch between sounds quickly on the fly and it allows different groupings of multiple parts on a single pad, I'd be pretty well set. The rest is just gravy after that.

[miden]

1 hour ago, llatham said:

This is what I figured.

 

Is there a "quick assign" like the FA - you would hold down Shift and move the control element (Wheel 1 for example) and it would bring up the screen of things you could assign to it and you select from there.

 

 

 

Yep!

[AnotherScott]

I just picked up a Fantom-07, we'll see whether I keep it. The thing that persuaded me was the Rhythm Pattern feature, with its pre-defined easily selectable intro/outro/verse/chorus/fill/variation stuff while (hopefully) being able to easily change the sounds I'm manually playing, with the goal of possibly being able to use it instead of the Korg PA1000 for gigs where I'm providing drum rhythms. The instant appeal is in having 76 keys in 15.4 lbs (compared to 61 keys in 23.7 lbs). Related, if I'm providing the drums, there's a good chance I'm doing LH bass. The PA1000 is one of the best 61s for LH bass, because the front panel octave button can switch just the RH sound while leaving your bass section as is, but that's still not as good as having 76 keys, where you're less likely to have to do octave jumping in the right hand in the first place.

 

Other potential advantages over the PA1000 in the rig (as a "second board") include more real-time controls, VA synth functions, more MIDI flexibility, more split/layer functionality, better organ. (I don't necessarily need all these things, especially depending on what else I'm pairing the board with, but it's nice to have the options.) Both boards have some nice modeled behaviors (SuperNATURAL Acoustic tones in the Roland, DNC in the Korg). The Korg has a big advantage in having aftertouch, and its speakers sometimes come in handy, too. So, pros and cons, as always.

 

(Side note that I also sometimes use the Kurzweil PC4-7 when I need drum tracks. It works okay, but it's just one beat for the whole song. If there is a way to use front panel buttons to switch to different patterns for verses, chorus, fills, endings, etc., I'm not aware of it. And so far, when I've done it, I've played the LH bass on another board, I haven't figured out how to do it all at once on the Kurz. I'm posting another thread about that.)

 

Initial impressions:

 

...As Miden and Sean have said, the action is indeed, well, uninspiring. I think it's workable, but to compare it to its more typical competition, I'd say it's not as good as that of the MODX7, which in turn is not as good as that of the PC4-7.

 

...It's interface was more confusing than I'd expected it to be. One important thing to know that you wouldn't know by looking at the controls, if you're trying one out somewhere, is that double-clicking a button is often essential in being able to get where you're trying to go. (Also, shift-clicking it.)

 

...while I do like some of the SuperNATURAL behavioral attributes, as a whole, I don't think acoustic instrument emulations are generally as good as those in the PC4-7 or MODX7, or the PA1000. At least so far. I have more exploring to do.

 

...I ran into some note stealing and weird sounds when playing with one of the Scenes, A-004 Brass+Sax on the first page. I'll need to get back to this and see what's going on.

 

Question: For those who have one, are there any sounds pre-loaded in the User bank, from pages 116-128? I've already determined that my box was not a factory-new unit, and I suspect that the fact that my User bank has a bunch of sounds there is, I suspect, more evidence that this had been used as some kind of demo unit. I would have expected these locations to be empty. Are these empty of full on your units?

 

On 3/24/2022 at 9:11 PM, Stokely said:

I was very disappointed in the FA organ; I was coming not long ago from a VR-700 and I didn't think the FA was close to the same quality.  It was surprising because I thought it was going to be.

 

I think that's largely because the VR series have numerous effects dedicated to the organ sound, whereas the organ in the FA seemed kind of shoe-horned into the minimal effects-per-sound capabilities of the FA. So the FA struggled to do a decent simultaneous rotary and overdrive effect, and omitted simultaneous chorus/vibrato altogether. But even though the new Fantoms have inherited what is basically the one-insert-effect-per-part architecture of the FA, they seem to have special-cased the tonewheel engine so that it overcomes those limitations. (The additional resources required may be related to the fact that the tonewheel organ is the only Fantom-0 sound that is not available with seamless sound transitions.)

 

On 3/27/2022 at 9:32 PM, AnotherScott said:

there's only one set of samples that can be assigned to the pads (IOW, they are global, and not scene-specific)... why would anyone need the bulk of 2 GB for a single set of 16 samples? What am I missing here? 

From the video Charleston posted, it's actually 64 samples (4 banks of 16 samples that can be associated with the 16 pads). 

 

On 3/28/2022 at 3:17 PM, AnotherScott said:

On 3/28/2022 at 1:27 PM, miden said:

VERY easy and quick to assign the four Rhythm Pattern ops to the pads, but the rhythm stops when selecting a new scene. You can change sounds within the scene with the rhythm pattern playing though...seems if IN the scene with rhythm assigned you can do most everything while it's playing. Just not change the scene itself.

 

That's not ideal for me, but probably still workable for most purposes.

 

If you're saving a beat for a particular song, the fact that you can save it in, essentially, a bank of 15 other sounds (which can be put in keyboard switch groups to be played individually or in split/layered groups) should cover your needs, few songs need more than 15 sounds in them!

 

In my case, though, I have lots of songs for which I use the same basic beat (just possibly varying tempo), so ideally, I'd want to be able to call up the beat, and then independently pick whatever sounds I might need for the song at hand, as I need them. I was able to do this on the PC4... I could start a beat, and then change to any Program I wanted, without having to pre-define a set to choose from (but they would have to be Programs, not Multis).

 

I wonder if there might be a way to do something similar here...  i.e. while playing, even though you can't change to a different Scene, you might be able to easily change one of the Tones in that Scene to some other Tone, still without interrupting the beat (or another part you may be playing with your other hand in another zone)?

 

The good news... YES, while the drums are playing, you can easily select ANY tone you want for another part. Also good news... each screen can have up to 20 sounds to choose from (compared to 8 on the PA1000, and 9 or 10 on the PC4-7, though again on the Kurz, I haven't yet found a way to play multiple parts with the drums). Also, the star rating system lets you easily assemble a couple of screens that will have all the sounds you're likely to need. The bad news... there is no seamless transitions when changing from one of these sounds to another. On the Korg and the Kurzweil, I can generally make these changes seamlessly.

 

But if you can keep the number of sounds you need to switch among down to 15 (perhaps occasionally swapping some out for some others, or saving some different combinations of 15), you can place them in different Zones within the Scene, and then you can switch among them seamlessly... though in that case, I haven't yet seen if I can keep the bass going and just switch the RH part.

 

22 hours ago, miden said:

just discovered why the organ sounded so shite - I was hearing the rompler ones....found out that the Virtual Tone Wheel engine (VTW) is ONLY available on Zone 2 - go figure?? Sounds much better!

 

Yup. Another initial frustration... walking up to the board and trying to find a sound that used the tonewheel organ engine. The manual doesn't specifically tell you how to do it, either. But I found it. I have not yet come across any obvious way to control the ninth drawbar from a front panel control, only by going to the screen with the organ graphic. (Which again, was something that took me a while to figure out how to get to.)

 

19 hours ago, llatham said:

I wonder if the pad modes are the same as the FA too - I actually use my pads to select between 16 sounds within the same studio set.

 

Yes, it has that function. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp1FuZhTeQs

 

 

[miden]

head to user banks higher up...double tap the User button then you need to go to page 115 and they start at #1779 (well it does on the 88 after OS update to 1.01) Not sure if the new update does anything but thought I'd mention it