Yamaha CP88/YC88 vs. the rest

[pawelsz]

8 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

That's interesting but not surprising, given the wide and varied preferences people have for actions.  Out of curiosity did you come up playing piano or organ?  As an adult, do you spend most of your time practicing on a grand piano, upright or digital keyboard?  

 

Does anyone know what the differences are in the PH4 Standard found in the RD88 and the PH4 Concert found on the RD800?  I prefer the PH4 Concert to the PHA-50 found in the RD2000.  

 

PHA-IV Standard is successor of Ivory Feel-G, around 20 cm pivot length, hammers below the keys towards the player, more noticeable escapement, a bit heavier weighting, matte black keys. Single color white keys with fake ivory tops. FP-50, RD-300 NX and others had Ivory Feel-G. JUNO-DS 88 has it. 

 

PHA-IV Premium is successor of Ivory Feel-S, around 22 cm pivot length, hammers in the back of action. Single color white keys (white) with fake ivory tops. Obviously escapement, matte black keys. Ivory Feel-S was also named PHA-III Ivory Feel-S in FP-7F, in FP-80 named just Ivory Feel-S. 

 

PHA-IV Concert is a successor of PHA-III, also 22 cm pivot length, hammers in the back of action. Two-piece keys design (or at least two-color), with wood-like color plastic and fake ivory tops. Also Concert version has ebony-feel black keys. 

 

PHA-50 - 22 cm pivot length, basically same structure as PHA-IV Concert but with wooden inserts on the sides of white keys. 

 

Grand Hybrid Action - based on PHA-50 but with longer ca. 26 cm pivot length. 

 

That's what I observed in last years. 

[dbhoosier]

On 2/2/2022 at 12:19 PM, John Salazar said:

Anybody using a YC88/CP88 as a bottom board for a Nord? I have Stage 3 Compact and am looking for a weighted action for a dual board setup.  My main question is if the CP88 action plays well when triggering Nord acoustic pianos.  I realize using both keyboards in one setup might be a little redundant sound wise and I would probably be triggering the Nord most of the time, but there definitely are some sounds on the CP that have their own use unique to that keyboard.  For example, I'm not really a fan of the CP stock acoustic pianos but using advanced mode to put one in the sub section and turning the release all the way down gives a sound that I hear a lot of Gospel players use and a one that I could really use in some situations - this can't be done with the piano samples on the red keyboard.  I can also see myself using some of the EPs especially with the on-board effects as they do provide a different sound.

Yep - YC88 on bottom with a NS3 Compact up top. LOVE IT.  I think you’d be fine with the CP88 if you have an NS3C, but it’s not much more for the YC and I do occasionally use the super crunchy driven organ tones (the NS3 is my go to for organ otherwise).  I love the YC88 and it’s acoustic and electronic piano sounds.  The horn samples are really good too and other synth samples.  

[Aynsley Green]

9 hours ago, dbhoosier said:

Yep - YC88 on bottom with a NS3 Compact up top. LOVE IT.  I think you’d be fine with the CP88 if you have an NS3C, but it’s not much more for the YC and I do occasionally use the super crunchy driven organ tones (the NS3 is my go to for organ otherwise).  I love the YC88 and it’s acoustic and electronic piano sounds.  The horn samples are really good too and other synth samples.  

 

Yeah that might be the ticket. I already have a Yamaha MODX6, might chuck that up top and MIDI it in to trigger the organ, but other than that I like keeping my keyboards 'separate', redundancy is a good thing. As is two volume knobs/seperation for the sound guy. But about 70% of the gigs I do I'd probably only need the YC88.

[Aynsley Green]

On 2/4/2022 at 2:47 PM, Fleer said:

The other way around for me. Didn’t like the CP88 and immediately preferred the RD88 for its PH4 action, MainStage integration and, above all, those classic Roland sounds, thousands of them. 

 

I did try the RD88 in the shop, it was pretty solid for the price (and compact!), but the Wurly sound was really bad, deal breaker for me (I used to own a Wurly, so it needs to fill that hole in my heart)

[pawelsz]

2 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

 

I did try the RD88 in the shop, it was pretty solid for the price (and compact!), but the Wurly sound was really bad, deal breaker for me (I used to own a Wurly, so it needs to fill that hole in my heart)

Yamaha has excellent Wurlies. Dexibell also very good. Roland is weak in that regard. 

[octa]

some cool groovin' on YC88 wurly here: 

 

[Docbop]

This thread is really interest since I've been thinking of trading in my RD-2000 and getting either a NS3 or YC88.   I think it's a tougher decision than when I was researching Montage vs Kronos.  In general the NS3 and YC88 are very similar, but the differences to me are big.  

 

Also hanging out on one of the Nord forums seeing a lot of people needing repair.   Since where I live getting anything repaired is not easy and Nord would be much harder than Yamaha. 

[Aynsley Green]

7 hours ago, octa said:

some cool groovin' on YC88 wurly here: 

 

 

Dang, that 'Wr Warm' is even better than the Nord 'Wurlitzer 2 XL'. Might have to max out the credit card this month...

[AnotherScott]

Yeah, I think the EPs in the CP/YC beat out Nord's EPs too.

[Aynsley Green]

42 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Yeah, I think the EPs in the CP/YC beat out Nord's EPs too.

 

Does anyone know if they are the same EP samples as in the Montage/MODX? Because they didn't blow me away (always used the Pugatory Creek library instead on my MODX). Or are these all new?

[AnotherScott]

Good question. I wasn't able to hear them side by side, and they don't use the same nomenclature, which would make it that much harder to even know which patches to compare. I was more impressed playing the CP/YC, but those boards also had better feeling actions than my MODX7 and so even if the samples were the same, they may have benefitted from better velocity mapping to the action at hand and/or finger-to-ear connection, which would skew the eval... though not necessarily irrelevantly so. After all, even if the samples are the same, but they play more expressively on the YC61 than the MODX 7 (or on the CP88 compared to the MODX8), as long your intent would be to actually play these sounds from the boards in which they reside, then the bottom line would still be that the YC/CP sound better, even if the samples are the same. That said, if you take the time, MODX velocity mapping is very adjustable, so there's the additional variable in comparing how they sound out of the box vs. how they sound if and when you're willing to take the time to customize to your taste.

 

When I had access to a YC and CP, I did record samples of the EP sounds. One of these days, I'll do the same with the MODX, from the same MIDI file. That would at least demonstrate how close the raw samples are. but there would still be the variable of how they play from their own actions, with and without tweaking.

 

Just as a point of reference, the CP shows 5 distinct Rhodes sample sets based on their names (plus variations thereof)... a '67, '73, '74, '75, and '78. The Rhodes wavesets of the MODX are rarely listed by model. The only specific years they show are the '73 and the '78 (which still doesn't guarantee they are the same sample sets as the '73 and '78 in the CP). Other than that, MODX Rhodes sample sets are listed as EP1, EP2, EP3, EP4, RD Soft, and RD Hard. Which models were sampled for these, and whether they correspond to some of those other CP sample sets, well, at this point your guess is as good as mine. Though the ones with fewer available velocity layers are probably older legacy (Motif XS/XF) and/or GM wavesets that I think are less likely to be in the CP.

[Aynsley Green]

38 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Good question. I wasn't able to hear them side by side, and they don't use the same nomenclature, which would make it that much harder to even know which patches to compare. I was more impressed playing the CP/YC, but those boards also had better feeling actions than my MODX7 and so even if the samples were the same, they may have benefitted from better velocity mapping to the action at hand and/or finger-to-ear connection, which would skew the eval... though not necessarily irrelevantly so. After all, even if the samples are the same, but they play more expressively on the YC61 than the MODX 7 (or on the CP88 compared to the MODX8), as long your intent would be to actually play these sounds from the boards in which they reside, then the bottom line would still be that the YC/CP sound better, even if the samples are the same. That said, if you take the time, MODX velocity mapping is very adjustable, so there's the additional variable in comparing how they sound out of the box vs. how they sound if and when you're willing to take the time to customize to your taste.

 

When I had access to a YC and CP, I did record samples of the EP sounds. One of these days, I'll do the same with the MODX, from the same MIDI file. That would at least demonstrate how close the raw samples are. but there would still be the variable of how they play from their own actions, with and without tweaking.

 

Just as a point of reference, the CP shows 5 distinct Rhodes sample sets based on their names (plus variations thereof)... a '67, '73, '74, '75, and '78. The Rhodes wavesets of the MODX are rarely listed by model. The only specific years they show are the '73 and the '78 (which still doesn't guarantee they are the same sample sets as the '73 and '78 in the CP). Other than that, MODX Rhodes sample sets are listed as EP1, EP2, EP3, EP4, RD Soft, and RD Hard. Which models were sampled for these, and whether they correspond to some of those other CP sample sets, well, at this point your guess is as good as mine. Though the ones with fewer available velocity layers are probably older legacy (Motif XS/XF) and/or GM wavesets that I think are less likely to be in the CP.

 

That was my suspicion too, the tailor-made action/velocity mapping/programming voodoo makes all the difference. But I suspect some of the EPs are new - the MODX Wurly is pretty average, whereas the YC Wurly is pretty happening.

That said, playing the CFX Grand on the MODX6 and the CFX Grand on the YC88 are completely different experiences, even though I assume they're exactly the same sample. Even compared to the Nord Grand next to it in the shop, I found it so much easier to get dynamics/articulation/colour out of the YC88, which I think is a big part of why it 'sounded better'.

 

Maybe we're overthinking it. I'm just glad there's a viable alternative to the Nord Stage on the market that isn't egregiously overpriced!

[Fleer]

On 2/4/2022 at 2:12 PM, ElmerJFudd said:

That's interesting but not surprising, given the wide and varied preferences people have for actions.  Out of curiosity did you come up playing piano or organ?  As an adult, do you spend most of your time practicing on a grand piano, upright or digital keyboard?  

 

Does anyone know what the differences are in the PH4 Standard found in the RD88 and the PH4 Concert found on the RD800?  I prefer the PH4 Concert to the PHA-50 found in the RD2000.  

Piano. I’m actually hesitating between a Blüthner 6 and a straight strung Maene CM200 I’m testing this very week. 
The RD-88 indeed has the PH4 Standard action, not the Concert one, but I like it very much. 
As for Wurly duties, and electric keys in general, my Vox trio reigns supreme 

[eric]

How is the CP80 sound in the Yamaha CP and YC keyboards? I know many love to hate this sound. It's my favorite keyboard sound of all time.

[Aynsley Green]

5 minutes ago, eric said:

How is the CP80 sound in the Yamaha CP and YC keyboards? I know many love to hate this sound. It's my favorite keyboard sound of all time.

 

The CP80 sound in the MODX is great - I do a lot of '70s retro' gigs, so the CP80 has to sound right. I like it better than the CP70 sample in Purgatory Creek, even, which seems to be more designed for ballads.

To my ears it is the same sample as 'CP80 1' on the CP/YC. There's also a 'CP80 2', which may be a new sample.

[Art-0252]

On 2/5/2022 at 5:40 PM, Aynsley Green said:

 

Does anyone know if they are the same EP samples as in the Montage/MODX? Because they didn't blow me away (always used the Pugatory Creek library instead on my MODX). Or are these all new?

Having owned both a MODX and a CP88 I am almost positive that the samples are not the same ( Or at the very least that the EPs on the CP88 are sampled to a greater depth of velocity/accuracy)

On 2/5/2022 at 8:40 PM, eric said:

How is the CP80 sound in the Yamaha CP and YC keyboards? I know many love to hate this sound. It's my favorite keyboard sound of all time.

I think the CP80 sound on the CP88 is quite good. The only better once I've played is in Keyscape ( go figure). It's much better than the comparatively thin sounding one on my NS3, and even though there is less control with the single wet/dry knob for chorus in the piano section, I have found that just a touch of that chorus on the CP80 sound is much better than the more robust chorus I apply on the Nord to their CP80 patch. Unsurprisingly, the dx7 ep patch is also much better on the CP than the NS3. I guess if you made the original instrument, it's easier to nail the sound years later. 

 

Also I wanted to add in response to some of the earlier posts that I also almost always play the CP and NS3 separately rather than midi-ing them together because I agree that the EP's are a bit better on the CP ( especially the Wurli!) and then I can keep the nord ready exclusively for synth and organ parts. Plus as others have said, you also have the advantage of retaining more sonic options by using both sound sources ( i.e. sometimes the CFX piano cuts better through the mix than my go-to White Grand on the Nord)

[Art-0252]

On 2/5/2022 at 2:45 PM, Docbop said:

This thread is really interest since I've been thinking of trading in my RD-2000 and getting either a NS3 or YC88.   I think it's a tougher decision than when I was researching Montage vs Kronos.  In general the NS3 and YC88 are very similar, but the differences to me are big.  

 

Also hanging out on one of the Nord forums seeing a lot of people needing repair.   Since where I live getting anything repaired is not easy and Nord would be much harder than Yamaha. 

Doc , FWIW If I had to sell one of my boards it would definitely be the CP over the Nord. I think the Nord organ just blows the YC out of the water, and the ease of programing patches, splits and 'morphs' ( what Nord calls the process of assigning aftertouch, expression pedal, MW, etc) is just really well designed. I am often playing the types of gigs where I need to assign parameters, or dial in a patch on the fly, and I think the Nord Stage series is just unparalleled in that regard. I could definitely play just my Nord at every gig and never bump into any major limitations with the type of music I play, but YMMV.

[ElmerJFudd]

59 minutes ago, Art-0252 said:

Doc , FWIW If I had to sell one of my boards it would definitely be the CP over the Nord. I think the Nord organ just blows the YC out of the water, and the ease of programing patches, splits and 'morphs' ( what Nord calls the process of assigning aftertouch, expression pedal, MW, etc) is just really well designed. I am often playing the types of gigs where I need to assign parameters, or dial in a patch on the fly, and I think the Nord Stage series is just unparalleled in that regard. I could definitely play just my Nord at every gig and never bump into any major limitations with the type of music I play, but YMMV.

That’s the crux of it really.  In the Case of YC vs NS and how much organ you play.   If you’re playing a lot more piano and a piano-like action is a priority, or if you’re doing a lot of organ playing and the organ engine is the priority.  Personally I feel the YC and the NS both benefit a lot from use of a Vent.  But if you don’t want the extra bit of kit, yeah - NS organ wins. I just don’t like playing piano on any of their instruments - short of the Nord Grand, which I haven’t had the pleasure to sit at yet, but wouldn’t want to carry regardless.  

[pawelsz]

51 minutes ago, Art-0252 said:

I think the CP80 sound on the CP88 is quite good. The only better once I've played is in Keyscape ( go figure). It's much better than the comparatively thin sounding one on my NS3, and even though there is less control with the single wet/dry knob for chorus in the piano section, I have found that just a touch of that chorus on the CP80 sound is much better than the more robust chorus I apply on the Nord to their CP80 patch. Unsurprisingly, the dx7 ep patch is also much better on the CP than the NS3. I guess if you made the original instrument, it's easier to nail the sound years later. 

 

 

Dexibell has EXCELLENT CP70/CP80 samples.

 

[Aynsley Green]

On 2/10/2022 at 8:18 AM, ElmerJFudd said:

That’s the crux of it really.  In the Case of YC vs NS and how much organ you play.   If you’re playing a lot more piano and a piano-like action is a priority, or if you’re doing a lot of organ playing and the organ engine is the priority.  Personally I feel the YC and the NS both benefit a lot from use of a Vent.  But if you don’t want the extra bit of kit, yeah - NS organ wins. I just don’t like playing piano on any of their instruments - short of the Nord Grand, which I haven’t had the pleasure to sit at yet, but wouldn’t want to carry regardless.  

 

We are all so different. I still use my Hammond SK2 on gigs, because I have never gotten along with the Nord organs, they always struck me as a 'Disney On Ice' version of what a Hammond sounds like - shiny and presentable, but lacking the grit factor (a large part of that being that bizarre Nord distortion effect). On the YC88, there's Drawbars + LEDs, Pre-Drive, Leslie Drive, Adjustable Leakage, the way the circuit drives with Swell Pedal, and a proper Distortion effect - I found the grittiness to be quite forthcoming. But then that all depends on what kind of Hammond sound one is going for/grew up playing, too.

 

But I mean, tell me this ain't pretty:

 

Legendary Tips & Tricks on the Yamaha YC61 Drawbar Keyboard ft. Mike Patrick - YouTube

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Aynsley Green said:

 

We are all so different. I still use my Hammond SK2 on gigs, because I have never gotten along with the Nord organs...shiny and presentable, but lacking the grit factor (a large part of that being that bizarre Nord distortion effect).

 

Which Nord(s)? I was quite happy with the overdrive grit/distortion on the Electro 5 and Stage 3. I found the SK1 (which should be same as SK2) practically unusable, until someone (Jim Alfredson?) posted the trick of picking the EP overdrive option, which ironically, worked better for organ overdrive than any of the organ overdrive options. That made it pretty usable, though I still liked Nord's OD better. Hammond did improve their OD on the SK Pro, or at least made it sufficiently more customizable so as to let you get better results out of it.

 

There was also some detailed stuff about SK1 vs Nord organ (overdrive, rotary, etc.) at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/165558-nord-electro-5d-vs-hammond-sk1/

 

2 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

On the YC88, there's Drawbars + LEDs, Pre-Drive, Leslie Drive, Adjustable Leakage, the way the circuit drives with Swell Pedal, and a proper Distortion effect - I found the grittiness to be quite forthcoming. But then that all depends on what kind of Hammond sound one is going for/grew up playing, too.

 

But I mean, tell me this ain't pretty:

 

Legendary Tips & Tricks on the Yamaha YC61 Drawbar Keyboard ft. Mike Patrick - YouTube

 

Nice video! I haven't watched all of it, but there was some great playing there, and some nice clear examples of gospel style drawbar manipulation, among other things. Real nice conversation about actual playing (whereas most shops' videos are, understandably, more about the gear itself). And it was surprising to see a "traditional" organ player making so much use of the sustain pedal!

 

That said, I did not care for the overdrive I heard there, either. Again, I'd take Nord for overdrive. But the basic tone of the YC is wonderful. I noticed that when I tried the YC61 myself as well. I think they really got that right. I might have gone with the YC61 if it had a better Leslie effect (includes overdrive as well). I was also a little disappointed in the YC61 action for organ. It was nicely above average (as non-hammer actions go) for piano, and I'm not a total purist about needing the high trigger it lacks, but the combination of low trigger with its almost escapement-like initial resistance point to overcome plus a lower than expected trigger for the release point gave it a compromised playability compared to other waterfall boards. I ended up getting the SK Pro, which is far more flexible, but heavier and more complicated. Though getting back to the point of this thread, the Hammond isn't available with a hammer action, so they don't compete there. 

 

Another YC88 competitor would arguably be the Dexibell Vivo S9, which uses Fatar's TP-400, which is an action I've never played.

 

 

[eric]

Can the YC organ be routed to a separate output to a Vent?

[Moonglow]

Sadly not. 🙁

 

Kind of a deal-breaker. Hopefully they will update the Leslie sim.

[drawback]

I’ve noticed the YC61 has recently been put on sale by two large retail chains, dropping as much as $500 CDN. Can’t speculate as to why; I would have thought the weighted 73 would be the first to discount.

[ElmerJFudd]

52 minutes ago, drawback said:

I’ve noticed the YC61 has recently been put on sale by two large retail chains, dropping as much as $500 CDN. Can’t speculate as to why; I would have thought the weighted 73 would be the first to discount.

B Stock? 

[drawback]

28 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

B Stock? 

Does not appear to be so. The listings simply show a previous price stroked through and a sale price, and on two different major retail chains. Long & McQuade has it down from $2699 to $2199 and Tom Lee has the YC61 down from $2199 to $1699 CDN. I can see some aggressive competition here, but all the while Sweetwater is still $1999 USD. That's substantial price drop even before you consider the currency exchange. 

[allan_evett]

2 hours ago, Moonglow said:

Sadly not. 🙁

 

Kind of a deal-breaker. Hopefully they will update the Leslie sim.

I just tried my YC88 with a Lester K.  Significant rotatry sim improvement, and bypassing the Lester K works fine when using Keyboard A/B sounds. But the lack of separate outs is still limiting, as any Live Sets with organ on a split/layer will still need to use the YC's own rotary sim. Sure hoping Yamaha offers an update!

[ludo]

16 minutes ago, allan_evett said:

I just tried my YC88 with a Lester K.  Significant rotatry sim improvement, and bypassing the Lester K works fine when using Keyboard A/B sounds. But the lack of separate outs is still limiting, as any Live Sets with organ on a split/layer will still need to use the YC's own rotary sim. Sure hoping Yamaha offers an update!

And this is the only reason  i’ll keep my Numa Organ 2. Only Hammondsounds helped by a Neo Minivent 2. Perfect!

[Moonglow]

I'm quite certain I would forget to engage/disengage my Vent when going between organ and non-organ patches during a gig. I already cuss enough when playing. 😁     

[eric]

4 hours ago, Moonglow said:

Sadly not. 🙁

 

Kind of a deal-breaker. Hopefully they will update the Leslie sim.

Definitely a deal breaker. Would give this a look if that feature was available.