MacBook choices, internal debate

[octa]

Well, after much thought and many F5's on Apple Refurb page, I changed order to MacBook Air, 2TB/16GB. Still looking forward to it.

[octa]

Mon(ter)ey was the main factor.

[RABid]

I'm happy with my M1 Air. One thing to remember when buying new, a new Mac comes with the latest OS, not always a good thing. Better make sure your software is ready for it.

[uhoh7]

I've been dealing quite a bit lately with various macs, as a number of my clients have upgraded. While I usually run "DAWLESS", I like to have a "Logic" rig which cannot be newer that Mojave with breaking things, and a "Mainstage Rig" which could be newer. 

 

A few observtions: the Pre-Retina laptops (2010-12). These are superior to any Apple Laptop up to (2018) IMHO for a DAW......IF you drop in a SSD and MAX out the RAM to 16GB. If your computer does not have a SSD, it should. These are cheap, and nothing remotely improves performance like going from mechanical HD to SSD. It's like 6x increase. A ressurection. When you take RAM from 4 to 16 that is big too, but nothing like a SSD.

 

Many of the 15" models (2010-12) MPB have i7 processors. Both i5 and i7 have 4 cores on the 15s. The 13's no matter the processer have only two cores, but with SSD and 16 gb Ram, they run well. These are flat out faster than the silver retinas, because the screens on those rigs are hungry.

 

But there is a bigger difference which makes the 2010-12 laptops better than all but the latest: digital toslink. With the right cable, you have pure digital out (from headphone mini-jack) to the DAC of your choice, or to an external sampler etc. The TOSLINK can also be converted to Digital Coax. I've compared directly, and the older MBPs with a decent DAC sound much nicer, to my ears, which are not young.

 

Those MBPs are cheap and easy to work on.

 

NEXT: beware a new MAC. Few pros are running monterey for music. In fact the majortiy are still on Mojave. That's because something in their studio or road rig won't work with anything newer. This is changing. If you just want the latest logic, even that is still buggy on monterey, and not expected to be fully up to speed till mid-feb. 

 

Every new MAC comes with Monterey. It's actually pretty slik, and runs fine with basic stuff on the 5 or 6 laptops I've setup in the last few months. I have retro-installed an older OS on MACs in the past, but that possiblity is not a given. Everybody always says you can't, but it's not always the case. Research.

 

NEXT the hardware is changing fast. The latest 16" acutally have the old style magnetic power cords, a CF reader, HDMI on board.....USB3 was too much crow I guess. Also that stupid "bar" above the keyboard is gone and we are back to the old style TYG. There are 13s and 14s and they each are different. There is no upgrading anything on these (post-2015) computers...certainly not the RAM. The 2013-15 Retinas are pretty easy to upgrade the drives to larger, but it's not cheap, even DIY. 

 

If you have any of these, keep a sharp eye on the battery. I have seen many, many swell with bad battery. Often the system report claims they are great, though the bottom plate is about to burst. Again the old ones are the sweetest, easy battery swap, but if you are ready to scrap glue and move carefully all the batteries can be DIY replaced for at most about $70. Watch several videos, and have the exact size drivers, and a thin plastic scraper at hand. Always drain the battery totally. Only order batteries from ebay sellers with "568 sold" under the listing. Any other source is suspect, and many have bought dead batteries. They can be sent back, but not your time. 

 

Battery check: look "edge on" across the trackpad to key edges and screen. Any hump, you need a battery. IE if the trackpad area has a higher elevation than the edges, by the speakers. It should be dead flat edge to edge. Look carefully at the seams around the whole bottom. Any signs of "splitting" you need a battery. The new 16s are heavy with a stronger case, I think because the nice light 15s (circa 2017-19) cannot contain their lithium  

 

The "Apple Silicon" seems fine with basic apps. But if you have any old stuff you need to research. It may not work.

 

I think the digital output is back on some models.

 

Good Luck  

 

For Windows laptops, lately I get my people the Microsoft Surface Laptop 4, which you could mistake for a MBP. Very nice build and reasonable price. However, MBP graphics are stronger and have other hardware advantages. For a DAW I don't know what I would get in a windows rig. But there are many good specialty makers with unique features. I would try to find one with a digital audio output. 

[cphollis]

Great advice @uhoh7 on different generations and what to look for.  As some of us manage a small fleet, it's nice to know what older devices are preferred, and why.  On the newest Macs, the TB4 ports are like external computer busses -- they're that fast.  I haven't researched nicer DACs to get digital back into the audio domain, though.

[Reezekeys]

 

21 hours ago, uhoh7 said:

Many of the 15" models (2010-12) MPB have i7 processors. Both i5 and i7 have 4 cores on the 15s. The 13's no matter the processer have only two cores, but with SSD and 16 gb Ram, they run well. These are flat out faster than the silver retinas, because the screens on those rigs are hungry.

My main axe is a Late 2013 15" Retina 2Ghz quad-core i7. I'm about to acquire an earlier 15" MBP, so I'm very curious to find out if it's going to be "flat out faster" as you put it. I don't doubt you, just genuinely curious. I'm not sure how much $$ I'm comfortable sinking into it, but agree that an SSD is pretty much a necessity for it to hang with what we need to do these days. More ram, and probably a new battery, and the $$ outlay starts to creep up to where it might not be worth it for me – since this older laptop is not something I really need, it just fell into my lap.

 

One major disadvantage the laptops of the vintage you mention is USB2 and Firewire connectors. All the audio and video work I do that uses external drives uses USB3, for which very inexpensive enclosures are available along with relatively inexpensive 2.5" SSDs - and it all works great. USB2 doesn't work for that, so either I get a large internal and do everything there, or find an old firewire enclosure... which could be a problem. I have no idea how easy those are to come by these days. Even discounting audio & video work, at some point you're gonna need to do backups or archives, and your only choices for attaching external drives will be either a slow or hard-to-find connection protocol.

 

21 hours ago, uhoh7 said:

But there is a bigger difference which makes the 2010-12 laptops better than all but the latest: digital toslink. With the right cable, you have pure digital out (from headphone mini-jack) to the DAC of your choice, or to an external sampler etc. The TOSLINK can also be converted to Digital Coax. I've compared directly, and the older MBPs with a decent DAC sound much nicer, to my ears, which are not young.

 

I have lots of experience using my TOSLINK output on gigs, which I used for a few years. I used it with a cheap D-to-A box sold under various Chinese "brand-du-jour" names on Ebay or Amazon for around $15. Truth be told, the regular analog headphone out sounds better than what I got. These cheap boxes have relatively low outputs on RCA jacks, and while getting enough gain to use them with my QSCs on a gig wasn't a problem, they had noisy analog electronics. I just looked one up on Amazon and found the identical-looking unit, however it's now shown as working with sample rates to 96K. Mine goes to 48K, so they must have changed chips; maybe the newer ones have better noise performance. Any decent external audio interface that uses USB2 (as most smaller ones still do) should work fine on these older Macs too, so that's another option. I'm not doubting the claim that your audio was improved using TOSLINK and an adapter, but at least on my late-2013 MBP, its regular headphone output has sounded just fine to me for gigs, and even mixing projects on a DAW. I'll guess that the DAC you used cost more than $15! One time, my cheap converter box saved my ass: years ago I had a gig on a boat. Plugging the analog out from my MBP to my QSCs resulted in a deafening 60Hz hum coming from the speakers, which I assumed had to do with the boat's generator and/or grounding system. Using the optical converter completely eliminated that hum. I keep it in my laptop bag but haven't used it in many years. BTW my late-2013 MBP was the earliest MPB to enable 192Khz output through the TOSLINK output.

[uhoh7]

9 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

My main axe is a Late 2013 15" Retina 2Ghz quad-core i7. I'm about to acquire an earlier 15" MBP, so I'm very curious to find out if it's going to be "flat out faster" as you put it. I don't doubt you, just genuinely curious. I'm not sure how much $$ I'm comfortable sinking into it, but agree that an SSD is pretty much a necessity for it to hang with what we need to do these days. More ram, and probably a new battery, and the $$ outlay starts to creep up to where it might not be worth it for me – since this older laptop is not something I really need, it just fell into my lap.

 

One major disadvantage the laptops of the vintage you mention is USB2 and Firewire connectors. All the audio and video work I do that uses external drives uses USB3, for which very inexpensive enclosures are available along with relatively inexpensive 2.5" SSDs - and it all works great. USB2 doesn't work for that, so either I get a large internal and do everything there, or find an old firewire enclosure... which could be a problem. I have no idea how easy those are to come by these days. Even discounting audio & video work, at some point you're gonna need to do backups or archives, and your only choices for attaching external drives will be either a slow or hard-to-find connection protocol.

 

 

I have lots of experience using my TOSLINK output on gigs, which I used for a few years. I used it with a cheap D-to-A box sold under various Chinese "brand-du-jour" names on Ebay or Amazon for around $15. Truth be told, the regular analog headphone out sounds better than what I got. These cheap boxes have relatively low outputs on RCA jacks, and while getting enough gain to use them with my QSCs on a gig wasn't a problem, they had noisy analog electronics. I just looked one up on Amazon and found the identical-looking unit, however it's now shown as working with sample rates to 96K. Mine goes to 48K, so they must have changed chips; maybe the newer ones have better noise performance. Any decent external audio interface that uses USB2 (as most smaller ones still do) should work fine on these older Macs too, so that's another option. I'm not doubting the claim that your audio was improved using TOSLINK and an adapter, but at least on my late-2013 MBP, its regular headphone output has sounded just fine to me for gigs, and even mixing projects on a DAW. I'll guess that the DAC you used cost more than $15! One time, my cheap converter box saved my ass: years ago I had a gig on a boat. Plugging the analog out from my MBP to my QSCs resulted in a deafening 60Hz hum coming from the speakers, which I assumed had to do with the boat's generator and/or grounding system. Using the optical converter completely eliminated that hum. I keep it in my laptop bag but haven't used it in many years. BTW my late-2013 MBP was the earliest MPB to enable 192Khz output through the TOSLINK output.

 

Regarding USB3: the last of the pre-retina laptops (2012 I think) have USB3. If that bandwidth is something you will use in USB form, no question, you want it. But if you are picky you can get it on those cheaper, thicker MBPs. 

 

For example:

https://www.macofalltrades.com/apple-macbook-pro-13-inch-glossy-2-9ghz-core-i7-mid-2012-md102ll-a-good-condition/#tech-specs

 

That's a 2012 13" for 279.00. 8GB of Ram might be OK, but can go to 16. HD is mechanical needs a SSD: 500GB 54USD:

https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-MX500-500GB-NAND-Internal/dp/B0786QNS9B/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=500gb+ssd&qid=1644219733&sr=8-3

 

Also something to note: it has a 750GB sata drive and DVD. The DVD Drive can be removed (and still used with the right cable via USB), and an SSD can be installed in it's place. There is a special holder that fits in the DVD drive place, for less than 20USD, you will need to look it up, but I've done it several times. So you could leave the 750 in place and add the SSD, and specify the boot drive OR you could mount 2 SSDs internally, one with Monterey (or at least Big Sur) which I think that supports, and one with Mojave, and boot to either. Latest Logic on one and the older Logic on the other. Or whatever software applies in your world. 

 

The 13s are compact, and no dongles....expect for HDMI, but ethernet is right there. Though it's a 2-core because it's a 13 (15" is 4-core), that would be a pretty nice portable lap for music...you do have to be careful about the condition, ask. "Good" may be fine or not so fine LOL.

 

As to the absent minijack TOSLINK on new ones, apparently this $9.99 thingy will output digital via toslink, which it receives from USB (need a dongle for 2015 and newer--they are cheap now) 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KW2YEI/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&th=1

It goes BOTH ways! No Drivers. Check reviews. I ordered one LOL.

 

Anyway, caveat emptor, do your homework, please don't bill me if I missed something, but you get an idea of various possibilities. 

[Reezekeys]

No doubt about it, those older machines can still be very useful. I'm proof of it with my late-2013 15". It replaced a "Santa Rosa" 2007 model that I wasn't actually looking to replace - I brought it to an Apple store to have them help solve an issue with Facetime, and to make a long story short it ended with them offering me an even swap for the brand new (at the time) 2013 model. Needless to say I took them up on that offer.

 

Doing a short walk down memory lane with the google, the mid-2012 models you link to were the first with USB3. I'm pretty sure the MBP my friend is generously giving me predates that – it's a 2011 or 2010 model. Thanks for reminding me about being able to replace the optical drive with a caddy for an extra hd. It'll be interesting to see how far I can go with this machine, although dedicating it for music-making isn't on the front burner as I've never had qualms about using my everyday late-2013 for gigs. I have its internal drive separated into two partitions with MacOS systems on each, both Mojave; one is very "clean" with no 3rd-party software installed except what I need to do gigs. I used the Sintech sled adapter to fit an Intel 1TB NVME gumstick drive, replacing the stock 256GB drive it had – that cost me less than $100. I made a third partition to store samples. There's still 250GB available space so I'm good for now although a 2TB may be in the future if I hang onto this machine a few more years.

 

The Behringer interface is great if you need optical, which I obviously don't. As befits its price, it's an older design that's 16-bit 48K (max) only. So, it might not be considered "audiophile-quality", although anyone looking at the price should be able to determine that. I'm sure it's more than fine for doing gigs with; then again I would bet it sounds no better, and may be even noisier, than what I get from my regular headphone output.

[Fleer]

Hey, still on my 2012 MBP 15” with 16 gigs of ram. Delivery of a new 16” M1 Max with 64 gigs is entering its fourth month. 

[octa]

MacBook Air arrived yesterday. It's flying. Also got an LG monitor, 4k with USB-C connectivity and the 2 USB-A ports on back of that are working well, as a hub for home use. Garritan CFX loads in 2 seconds instead of 2 minutes, and no crackles. Very nice.

[Hobo]

I was thinking of getting an M1 air to replace my 2012 MacBook Pro. But they’re passively cooled and can be throttled - is that anything to worry about in a live situation running MainStage ? Or should I just get a pro …

[Mark Zeger]

According to Macrumors.com, Apple will have new products announced on March 8. Likely a new iPad Air and iPhone SE, possible a new laptop.

 

I need an iPad replacement but may be tempted to move to a MacBook of some kind.