Over Theorization of Music

[AROIOS]

...

OP, if you've ever seen a Neely video before, you definitely knew what you were in for. What made you click it--masochism?

...

I'm aware of the manipulative "Loaded Question" click-bait tactic used in that video's ridiculous title, only clicked it because I've enjoyed Eric Carmen's original and was curious to see what "key change" trick Celine used.

 

BluMunk's post pretty much covered exactly how I feel about Neely and Beato. I appreciate their existence and have learned a thing or two from their contents. But as others have pointed out, there's a risk of beginners being intimidated or misled by their approach.

[KuruPrionz]

Lots of interesting perspectives here.

 

If somebody loves theory and/or "thinks" while they play music then it is virtually impossible to "over-theorize".

 

If somebody is "different" (blind, autistic, raised in a place where the entire concept of music is completely different), then theory may not be passed down the same way.

 

I was honored to be allowed to view a sacred Lummi ceremony, an Elder is my Brother and he wanted to share his culture with me.

It was all drums, rattles and singing - story telling. No recordings of any kind were allowed, I shut my cell phone off and left it in the car so there would be no dishonor.

 

As best as I can describe it, one of the beats they played went:

1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3-4-5-6-7

1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3-4-5-6-7

1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9

 

A few days later I chanted it to my Lummi Brother and asked him what it meant. He said it was the pattern of the waves on the water in the Salish Sea. Lummi have been fishermen for centuries uncounted, at one time they had the largest fishing fleet

of any tribe in the world, all paddle powered. They fished up in Alaska, they fished down in Mexico and all points in between, bartering fish for other things that are good to have and bringing those things home with them.

When they feel that pattern of the waves, they know they are home.

 

For all this time, they did not have a system to preserve that knowledge other than passing it down to the younger people. The same is true with the songs, the stories.

And that is music theory as well.

 

Some of us would try to feel it and fail, others would become one with it. We are all different.

[nursers]

whereas Beato seems like a dude. Just my two cents.

 

Yep I don't watch all of Beato's video but I really like his general persona on YouTube. Same as I love Leland Sklar's persona on YouTube. I'm guessing Leland is the same on YouTube as he is in real life - Beato who knows.

[AROIOS]

That was an excellent video. I would highly recommend it to anybody who is interested in deeply understanding composition. The discussion on the conveyance of narrative and emotion was profound. I like the nickname he used "the nostalgia note" or chord. I'm going to look at it again. I was already familiar with these techniques from solo piano jazz ballad experience but it was interesting to see it from a pop perspective and how David and Céline Dion handled it, and the power of 3rd going up and the 3rd going sown.

The early Beatles loved a sentimental iv minor.

 

In jazz piano, we often get there (another way to access the nostalgia note ) by simply borrowing from the parallel minor.

in G major over a G pedal point in the bass:

 

Gmaj7 A half-dim D7b9 Gmaj7, you see?

 

Cole Porter was very fond of that little tweak or mix. It's typical in my solo piano intros and vamps.

Also, G dim maj7 to G maj7 reminds a bit of the mood change, of course in this case its quite different and brings in -3 and dim 5. I like to alternate between the two borrowings o have just mentioned

"The nostalgia note" was a signature sound throughout Eric's original. There's nothing Foster/Dion about it. Its somber vibe comes from (IMHO) its IVm origin, and often made even more so by its commonly played IVm6 form (adding a tritone to the "nostalgia note").

 

That sound is extremely common in Pop. Besides "All By Myself", another one that immediately comes to my mind is Babyface's "Whip Appeal".

 

One of my favorite reharmonization/key-change trick is built around this very chord: Im6~II11b9~bIII6b5~IV9~VIm7b5~VII7#5(b9). These chords all have the same RH notes, we only need to change the root note to move among minor, dominant and half-diminished vibes. For example, the Am7b5 in the progression you mentioned can be seen as a substitute of Cm6 from this angle.

[Jazz+]

Aroios, yes, modes of the melodic minor, virtually all interchangeable.

[Jazz+]

The Beatles used IV minor in 'In my life', 'I call your name' , 'black bird', 'when I"m 64, 'the devil in her heart''and others. It was considered a normal thing to do. Call Porter used it in 'Night and Day' and 'what is this thing called love?' and quite a few of his other hits, they all did. I"m not sure the Irish Celtic folk music from the past used IV minor

[stoken6]

the verse melody ends on the major7, and the chorus melody starts on the minor 7 built one semitone (half-step) up - same note.

 

Cheers, Mike.

You just saved me 30 minutes.

What can I say? Any time, you know where to find me...

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AROIOS]

The Beatles used IV minor in 'In my life', 'I call your name' , 'black bird', 'when I"m 64, 'the devil in her heart''and others. It was considered a normal thing to do. Call Porter used it in 'Night and Day' and 'what is this thing called love?' and quite a few of his other hits, they all did. I"m not sure the Irish Celtic folk music from the past used IV minor

 

Yes, the IV-IVm progression was very popular in 60's~70's Pop/Folk composition.

 

Personally, besides the darker/tenser sound of IVm6 and IVm9, I also love the dreamy sound of IVm7 (usually between IV and IIIm7).

[AROIOS]

I'm surprised Adam (or anybody) didn't mention Foster pulling essentially the same trick in Earth Wind and Fire "After the Love is Gone", where the verse melody ends on the major7, and the chorus melody starts on the minor 7 built one semitone (half-step) up - same note.

 

And I was never a fan of Celine Dion's singing, until I heard her sing in French. Somehow that melodramatic, over-the-top delivery works in French in a way it doesn't in English.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Yes, "After the Love Is Gone" is a gem and showcases David Foster at his best in songwriting. I think it deserves Adam's click-baity video title better, with all its tasty key changes.

[Al Quinn]

whereas Beato seems like a dude. Just my two cents.

 

Yep I don't watch all of Beato's video but I really like his general persona on YouTube. Same as I love Leland Sklar's persona on YouTube. I'm guessing Leland is the same on YouTube as he is in real life - Beato who knows.

Through an unusual set of circumstances I found myself hanging out with Rick Beato in a Manhattan pub (i.e., we're sitting next to each other on the right). He's a genuinely nice guy. While he's highly opinionated about music, so am I (as are my friends across from us). We had fun sharing our different points of view. What was surprising to me was that we spent the majority of our time talking about non-music topics like our upbringings, our mom's, food, politics, and some mutual friends.

[nursers]

That is damn cool Al!

[Reezekeys]

I don't subscribe to Beato's channel and haven't seen too many of his videos, but from watching his pleasure listening to dixieland jazz here, I know I like this guy! Of course there's the harmonic analysis too â but that's not really the high point for me, it's really just his enthusiasm. I've also heard him talk knowledgeably about Bird, Miles, Pat Metheny, Chick, and other jazz heavyweights. He very obviously knows the history of this music, down to individual session dates sometimes. Then he'll make a video on how to distort a vocal on an EDM song or how to mic a bass drum, or a video about his pilgrimage to Bach's birthplace. All of this for free (if you can deal with the ads, I pay the $12/month so I don't have to), available anytime of the day or night. You don't like it? Click somewhere else - or start your own youtube channel and show Rick how it should be done! As for myself, even if his opinions don't always line up 100% with mine â so what?

 

[AROIOS]

whereas Beato seems like a dude. Just my two cents.

 

Yep I don't watch all of Beato's video but I really like his general persona on YouTube. Same as I love Leland Sklar's persona on YouTube. I'm guessing Leland is the same on YouTube as he is in real life - Beato who knows.

Through an unusual set of circumstances I found myself hanging out with Rick Beato in a Manhattan pub (i.e., we're sitting next to each other on the right). He's a genuinely nice guy. While he's highly opinionated about music, so am I (as are my friends across from us). We had fun sharing our different points of view. What was surprising to me was that we spent the majority of our time talking about non-music topics like our upbringings, our mom's, food, politics, and some mutual friends.

 

Things always seemed to go South real quick when I start talking about friends' moms...