Name This Hip Chord

[AROIOS]

Reezekeys' post and the ensuing discussion about the "3-2-5-1" chord reminded me of another "hip" chord that used to be popular in the 80's/90's. Keith Jarrett, Katsunori Ujiie, Scott Wilkie are all fans of this chord, to name a few.

 

I'm pasting both piano roll and audio below for context.

 

Now how would you name the last chord? Is it an F6/9(b5)? a Gadd9/F? an F13b5? or something else?

 

Click Here For Audio

[linwood]

I think of those as bitonal triads even though the C isn't in there at times, but if I need a chord symbol I'd probably write F6/9#11 that way the C is still in play under the B if I wanna use it some where.

[AROIOS]

I think of those as bitonal triads even though the C isn't in there at times, but if I need a chord symbol I'd probably write F6/9#11 that way the C is still in play under the B if I wanna use it some where.

 

Yes, the bitonal angle could lead to the F13b5 choice, with the 7th note (Eb) being incidental in this case.

[linwood]

No, I meant at times I might think of it as a G triad over an F triad. Not dom. Just two 1 3 5 triads. Lyd. Reason being if I think two roots there are some things that I can do with it or places I can go that I might not do if I just think F root. I try to see stuff from bottom to top top to bottom and middle out. All that stuff can help. Like if you were to see it as lyd, because all those tones are available to you, but see it as F A C D E G B and look at the center (D) In interval speak it's 2+3+4 in both directions. A mirror of itself. Just seeing things multiple ways helps me find things to do and places to go.

[AROIOS]

No, I meant at times I might think of it as a G triad over an F triad. Not dom. Just two 1 3 5 triads. Lyd. Reason being if I think two roots there are some things that I can do with it or places I can go that I might not do if I just think F root. I try to see stuff from bottom to top top to bottom and middle out. All that stuff can help. Like if you were to see it as lyd, because all those tones are available to you, but see it as F A C D E G B and look at the center (D) In interval speak it's 2+3+4 in both directions. A mirror of itself. Just seeing things multiple ways helps me find things to do and places to go.

 

I understand, Linwood. you looked at the lower half of the bitonal structure as a Fmaj, I looked at it as a F7. To me, both are viable options. The reason I called the omitted 7th "incidental" is because adding it (thus clearly making the chord a 13b5) is a harmonic alternative used just as often in Pop Jazz in the 80s/90s, as we can hear from the audio link below.

 

Hip Chord - Dominant Emphasis

[linwood]

I'm hip. Let's apply it and play it like Eb A D G C F B.

[AROIOS]

I'm hip. Let's apply it and play it like Eb A D G C F B.

 

If only I had giant hands to unleash that Avant Garde hipness.

[linwood]

HAHA...I can just reach it and on some roots it hurts a little. The point was from G it's a mirror. If you went to minor you could do something like keep the G and then an Ab triad on the bottom and a Bb major on top. Two traids a fifth away from the G. That kind of stuff. You don't use it a lot, but to be aware of it and hunt for it can take you to some interesting places. You can sit around for hours playing with that stuff....and it's not always about the piano. This stuff could be for tpts,bones, ww's, etc.

[Reezekeys]

You guys are way too hip for me! I hear THREE chords.

 

Amin11

D11

G/F

 

Yea, the D11 is more than a C/D (what I would usually play if I saw "D11" on a chart). The cluster on top has the root doubled and the 6th. I'm not sure how I would write out the chord symbol - "D11 add 6"?? That's weird. (I say 6 instead of 13 since the B is on the bottom). The other two chords are pretty straightforward though â at least to my decidedly unhip ears!

[AROIOS]

HAHA...I can just reach it and on some roots it hurts a little. The point was from G it's a mirror. If you went to minor you could do something like keep the G and then an Ab triad on the bottom and a Bb major on top. Two traids a fifth away from the G. That kind of stuff. You don't use it a lot, but to be aware of it and hunt for it can take you to some interesting places. You can sit around for hours playing with that stuff....and it's not always about the piano. This stuff could be for tpts,bones, ww's, etc.

 

Thanks Linwood. I appreciate your advice on looking at voicings as mirror images and approaching progressions in a chromatic way. I play with the latter technique from time to time and often end up with pleasant surprises. Will explore the former and see what I can come up with.

[AROIOS]

You guys are way too hip for me! I hear THREE chords.

 

Amin11

D11

G/F

 

Yea, the D11 is more than a C/D (what I would usually play if I saw "D11" on a chart). The cluster on top has the root doubled and the 6th. I'm not sure how I would write out the chord symbol - "D11 add 6"?? That's weird. (I say 6 instead of 13 since the B is on the bottom). The other two chords are pretty straightforward though â at least to my decidedly unhip ears!

 

By "hip chord" I was referring to the third chord in the progression, sorry for not making it clear, I've just edited the original post.

 

The G/F notation you offered is essentially the same as the Gadd9/F option, and I can see it working in another context, like Lenny Williams and Kenny G's "Don't Make Me Wait For Love". (I've attached piano roll and audio below for reference.)

 

Don't Make Me Wait For Love

 

As for the second chord, I look at it as a 13sus4 and usually move the 6th/13th (note B) to the top for a more open sound.

[MathOfInsects]

Can you post notation instead of the piano roll screenshot? I can't speak for others but I find it clunky to have to keep reading back and forth from the key layout/name to the midi event.

[AROIOS]

Can you post notation instead of the piano roll screenshot? I can't speak for others but I find it clunky to have to keep reading back and forth from the key layout/name to the midi event.

 

Sure, here you go.

[stoken6]

If you permit E natural: Fmaj7#11

 

If you permit Eb: F7#11

 

If you exclude both (as in your specific voicing), I vote for Linwood's F6/9#11

 

The #11 screams Lydian to me and almost implies by default the "major triad a tone above the root".

 

Cheers, Mike

[MathOfInsects]

Sure, here you go.

 

How did you know my LH can reach 13ths? I try to keep that quiet.

[Al Quinn]

It looks like Gadd2/F to me

[jarrell]

I'd also say F6/9#11 - not dominant as there's no Eb, not G/F as there is an A, not G sus2/F as there's a B, and not G add2/F - well possibly, but in my mind the 2nd not being in the same octave as either root or 3rd makes it less likely or clear.

[AROIOS]

If you permit E natural: Fmaj7#11

 

If you permit Eb: F7#11

 

If you exclude both (as in your specific voicing), I vote for Linwood's F6/9#11

 

The #11 screams Lydian to me and almost implies by default the "major triad a tone above the root".

 

Cheers, Mike

 

I love the Fmaj7#11 (Fmaj13#11 to be exact) angle you mentioned.

 

I also find the bitonal triad Lydian angle you and Linwood pointed out the most fitting for this context. Thanks.

[AROIOS]

Sure, here you go.

 

How did you know my LH can reach 13ths? I try to keep that quiet.

 

Haha, my bass player thanked you for figuring out the root cause of his existential crisis.

[AROIOS]

It looks like Gadd2/F to me

 

Yes, this is how I had memorized this voicing for the last 20 plus years. The sus2 in my original post is a misnomer since there's the 3rd in the voicing as Jarrell pointed out.

[AROIOS]

I'd also say F6/9#11 - not dominant as there's no Eb, not G/F as there is an A, not G sus2/F as there's a B, and not G add2/F - well possibly, but in my mind the 2nd not being in the same octave as either root or 3rd makes it less likely or clear.

 

I've never made a distinction between add2 and add9. If anything, the latter might indicate the composer's intent for an open voicing of the former. But I think sonically we're in the ballpark either way.

[MathOfInsects]

I've never made a distinction between add2 and add9. If anything, the latter might indicate the composer's intent for an open voicing of the former. But I think sonically we're in the ballpark either way.

But there is a very specific and important distinction. Add9 implies the inclusion of the 7. Add2 does not.

[Mike Warren]

I've never made a distinction between add2 and add9. If anything, the latter might indicate the composer's intent for an open voicing of the former. But I think sonically we're in the ballpark either way.

But there is a very specific and important distinction. Add9 implies the inclusion of the 7. Add2 does not.

 

I'm the first to admit my theory knowledge is weak, but I always thought Add9 just added the 9th, whereas 9 implied also adding the 7th.

[U.Honey]

I'm hearing

 

Am11

Cmaj7/D

And the last one : F C D G B. Don't know how to express that correctly, though :-o

 

EIDT: Oops, didn't realize there was a piano roll chart already.

[MathOfInsects]

I've never made a distinction between add2 and add9. If anything, the latter might indicate the composer's intent for an open voicing of the former. But I think sonically we're in the ballpark either way.

But there is a very specific and important distinction. Add9 implies the inclusion of the 7. Add2 does not.

 

I'm the first to admit my theory knowledge is weak, but I always thought Add9 just added the 9th, whereas 9 implied also adding the 7th.

Completely. I was too quick on the trigger on this response, and thinking in chord-spelling world, not in "add" world.

[AROIOS]

(At the risk of stating the obvious,) turns out folks were already "hip" in the 60's.😆

Just came across the chord discussed above in some 60's Easy Listening music, as a passing chord (at 45:45 below). The impeccable voice leading aside, I just absolutely love that airy, quartal, lydian sound.