Advice needed: Crumar Mojo vs VR-730

[AnotherScott]

FYI: I spoke with Guitar Center, and if I get a Gear Card there, I can order both boards; have them delivered to the store and set up onsite; try them out, and return the one I don't want on the spot (or even both, in the unlikely event I'm satisfied with neither). Seems like the way to go!

That's ideal!

 

Something else I try to do if I'm not sure I want something is to order a demo/b-stock model. If I like it, I'm happy to have the savings; if I return it, the board doesn't have any less value than when they sent it to me, so it's "no skin off their back," either.

[stoken6]

This is a very timely thread. A guitar-playing friend of mine has decided to learn to play keys. He's taking lessons, and I've got him connecting his Yamaha NP12 to his iPad with Neo-Soul Keys and Galileo. (He's delighted, he didn't know it was possible). His requirements are the same as Lyon's: organ and EPs, and he was looking at the Yamaha YC61 or Crumar Mojo.

 

I pointed him at the Vox Conti as one of the better non-hammer boards for playing piano. It's not the greatest clonewheel (mainly because the touchbars are finicky, and some controls, such as percussion and C/V, are missing), but probably good enough at this stage.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Lyon]

Well, I found a store called Alto Music that will let me try out the Vox, the VR-730, *and* the Mojo 61 side by side! I just have to put a 20% deposit down on the Vox, since they have to order it from the manufacturer; but as long as I buy one of the keyboards, the deposit will be applied to the sale (otherwise there's a 10% restocking fee). Sounds good to me, since I'm determined to get one of these in the end. Only issue is that the shop is 1.5 hours away -- but frankly, at this point in our pandemic lifestyle, a road trip doesn't sound like a bad idea. Am I nuts to go to all this trouble?!

[mate stubb]

Only issue is that the shop is 1.5 hours away -- but frankly, at this point in our pandemic lifestyle, a road trip doesn't sound like a bad idea. Am I nuts to go to all this trouble?!

 

Gear road trips have been a way of life for me, although I am slowing down these days. I drove 3 hours one way and hauled my Mojo into a well stocked GC once to test various powered speaker pairs. And does driving an RV across 3 states to attend GearFest count?

[Doerfler]

Well, I found a store called Alto Music that will let me try out the Vox, the VR-730, *and* the Mojo 61 side by side! I just have to put a 20% deposit down on the Vox, since they have to order it from the manufacturer; but as long as I buy one of the keyboards, the deposit will be applied to the sale (otherwise there's a 10% restocking fee). Sounds good to me, since I'm determined to get one of these in the end. Only issue is that the shop is 1.5 hours away -- but frankly, at this point in our pandemic lifestyle, a road trip doesn't sound like a bad idea. Am I nuts to go to all this trouble?!

 

Alto Music rocks.

 

Many, many, people commute 1.5 hours to and from work each day. Enjoy the ride.

[Lyon]

Ha! Well, that puts things in perspective. :-)

 

It also reminds me: I'll see if I can demo both the iLouds and the JBL 305ps while I'm up there!

 

By the way, does anyone have any thoughts on how big/bulky the Vox stand is compared to a standard X-stand, and how difficult it is to fold up or break down? I suppose I'll have the chance to see for myself soon enough, but I have been wondering about that lately, as I survey the cluttered mess that is our studio and move things about in an attempt to clean the damn place...

 

And a very Happy New Year to all! May this one be better than the last...

[Doerfler]

Gear road trips have been a way of life for me.

 

For you and plenty others. It's a fun thing. When I worked at Washington Music Center in the 1990's, I would wait on customers who drove down from New Jersey, or up from the Carolina's. Of course , that was before this thing called the internet got popular.

 

And does driving an RV across 3 states to attend GearFest count?

I went the year before you did, 550 miles each way. 4 states including the entirety of Ohio. So yes, it counts.

[mate stubb]

And the best gear road trip of all is driving to some small town for a Craigslist Hammond!

[Adan]

Well, I found a store called Alto Music that will let me try out the Vox, the VR-730, *and* the Mojo 61 side by side! I just have to put a 20% deposit down on the Vox, since they have to order it from the manufacturer; but as long as I buy one of the keyboards, the deposit will be applied to the sale (otherwise there's a 10% restocking fee). Sounds good to me, since I'm determined to get one of these in the end. Only issue is that the shop is 1.5 hours away -- but frankly, at this point in our pandemic lifestyle, a road trip doesn't sound like a bad idea. Am I nuts to go to all this trouble?!

 

Sounds like they're being very reasonable. No risk to you, really, since you will buy one of them (and you should!). I'm wondering if the sales person who helps you will try to influence one way or the other. Maybe towards the Vox since they've special ordered it? Just something to be thinking about. Salespeople have their own agenda based on their incentives, which they typically won't reveal to you.

 

Hour and a half is peanuts.

[Lyon]

Good point! I'll be on the lookout for Vox hype. And hopefully I'll know right quick which one I prefer in terms of touch and sound.

[Lyon]

Alto Music only takes visitors by appointment these days, so I'm just trying to figure out when to book one. In the meantime, I've been mulling ajstan's suggestion of a Nord 6D. How would the 6D (or the 5D) compare with the other boards in this thread in terms of action, organ, EPs, and ease of use? And would it allow for some of the other things -- splits, use of other kinds of samples (e.g., acoustic bass) -- as the VR-730 and Vox? Perhaps I can line up one of those to try, as well.

[Delaware Dave]

How would the 6D (or the 5D) compare with the other boards in this thread in terms of action, organ, EPs, and ease of use? And would it allow for some of the other things -- splits, use of other kinds of samples (e.g., acoustic bass) -- as the VR-730 and Vox? Perhaps I can line up one of those to try, as well.

How important are the pitch/mod wheels in your playing? Electro series don't have these. Of course I imagine that you could separately purchase a MIDI pitch/mod wheel. The Stage series has a mod wheel and a pitch 'stick'.

[Stokely]

I had a VR700 for use in my classic rock cover band. The organ was outstanding (key feel, sound was great). The other sounds were...ok, I didn't care for the piano. I expect the 730 may have improved sound for the non-organ patches. The biggest deal for me was the large size and weight, I ended up going with an Electro because it was more compact. If I had to pick, I'd take the Electro organ sound slightly (they were different though), and the VR700 key feel by a pretty big margin. It had the best key feel of any organ keyboard I've ever tried (which admittedly is not all of them). I liked it much better than the Hammond sk2 I played one gig on (it was at a benefit).

 

As far as mod wheel--well, the VR700 has that horrid pitch toggle thing common to most Rolands. I find it completely useless for most mod wheel things I like to do.

[AnotherScott]

How would the 6D (or the 5D) compare with the other boards in this thread in terms of action, organ, EPs, and ease of use?

Action: I have not played the VR-730, but reports here have said it feels like the action in those Nords.

 

Organ sound: Consensus would probably be that Nord lags Mojo, but beats Roland and Vox.

 

EPs: Consensus would probably be that Nord lags Mojo and Vox, but beats Roland.

 

Ease of Use: Depends what you're trying to do. All of them are simple if you just want to turn it on and play a Rhodes or a B3 sound. They will differ in the ease of editing a sound (and the extent to which a sound can be edited), the ease of creating/saving/manipulating splits, the ease of recalling saved patches, etc. What's easy on one may be difficult or impossible on another, but the answer of which is easier than which depends on what it is you're trying to do.

 

And would it allow for some of the other things -- splits, use of other kinds of samples (e.g., acoustic bass) -- as the VR-730 and Vox?

Yes it provides splits and other kinds of samples. You can even load your own samples.

 

To use splits as an example of subtle differences beyond simply saying "yes" or "no"...

Mojo = no splits.

Vox = splits, but mostly for bass, because you can't shift the octave of the left hand sound

Roland = more flexible splits than Vox because of the octave shift, but the lower sound can't have effects

Nord Electro 6 = the lower sound has its own octave shift and can also have its own effects

Nord Electro 5 = the lower sound has its own octave shift and can also have its own effects, plus you can run dual mono and send the lower sound out the left output jack while sending the upper sound out the right output jack

[Lyon]

Re: pitch/mod wheels, I've never really used one, except while messing around with a friend's keyboard. I'm sure I would play around with one if I had it, but definitely not a dealbreaker for me.

 

Really curious to try these all out and see how the actions compare!

[Lyon]

Ah, thanks for all the details re: the Electro vs the others!

 

Time for me to make a spreadsheet, I think...

[AnotherScott]

How important are the pitch/mod wheels in your playing? Electro series don't have these. Of course I imagine that you could separately purchase a MIDI pitch/mod wheel.

There are ways to get an external pitch bend device to work via MIDI, but no way to have it respond to mod wheel. A question might be, what would you have it do? Mod wheels most often control LFO depth, and the Electro has no LFO function to control.

I had a VR700 for use in my classic rock cover band...It had the best key feel of any organ keyboard I've ever tried (which admittedly is not all of them). I liked it much better than the Hammond sk2 I played one gig on

VR700 had one of the best organ actions ever. Unfortunately, the VR730 does not have that action.

[ElmerJFudd]

My VR-700 is wonderful to play organ on. It also has enough key length velocity tracking to play pianos on. Not my preference, the technique is different, but musical. The downside to the VR-700 is the drawbars do not send the expected CC"s to control software organs. It can be done but you need a midi translator box.

[allan_evett]

Alto Music only takes visitors by appointment these days, so I'm just trying to figure out when to book one. In the meantime, I've been mulling ajstan's suggestion of a Nord 6D. How would the 6D (or the 5D) compare with the other boards in this thread in terms of action, organ, EPs, and ease of use? And would it allow for some of the other things -- splits, use of other kinds of samples (e.g., acoustic bass) -- as the VR-730 and Vox? Perhaps I can line up one of those to try, as well.

 

 

The Electro 6D does have a flexible split and routing scheme, similar to the Vox Continental and VR-730. There are small differences though - function trade-offs that appeal to different, user needs. So it's important to continue studying the spreadsheet that AnotherScott prepared. An advantage that Nord offers is the ever-evolving sample-based library, which gives you an extensive source of high-quality sounds. The instrument does not have pitch/modulation controls though, and those can be very helpful when using the synthesizer section of these types of instruments. The 73-key Nord Stage 3 Compact does offer pitch/mod control, and is likely the top instrument in this category; but it does come with a related price tag.

 

I've owned a VR-730, and was very happy with the sounds and majority of functions. However, I was seeking a rather specific effects-to-split routing that it didn't have; so I eventually traded up to a Stage 3. I think you would like the VR-730; the keyboard feel, functions and sound quality are excellent. I haven't played the Korg/Vox Continental, but liked what I'd read and heard...Then this morning I read a current user review and listened to an audio demo; was very impressed! The VS 2.0 firmware update (early 2020?) offers a lot; you just might end up preferring it over the VR-730.

 

The Kurzweil PC4-7 looks to be a strong option too, and I believe its release is imminent. Back in the fall I debated returning a recently purchased stage piano for a Kurzweil PC4 88, studied it thoroughly and listened to a lot of demos. If a PC4-7 had been available in 2017 I'd have strongly considered it - vs the Stage 3. For what was needed the Kurzweil would've done the job at a much nicer price.

[Lyon]

Good to know! It'll take a few weeks for these other keyboards to arrive; by then, maybe they'll have a PC4-7 as well. :-)

 

If not, I'm sure one of these others will do me just fine. I have been messing around with 5 octaves on my piano, and I can tell I'd feel boxed in by the Crumar. But I'd like to try it anyhow, just as I'd like to try all of these if possible!

[ChazKeys]

 

Nord Electro 6 = the lower sound has its own octave shift and can also have its own effects

Nord Electro 5 = the lower sound has its own octave shift and can also have its own effects, plus you can run dual mono and send the lower sound out the left output jack while sending the upper sound out the right output jack

 

Just to clarify: Electro 6 has a better output routing mode: Left = Main (Pianos and Sample Synth + Reverb) Right = Organ (No reverb). So you can have your Vent or whatever always on the organ irrespective of split.

 

The problem with the Electro 5 is the routing - Upper/Lower only, not by section. So what comes out of the L/R is dependent on what section is playing on the Upper/Lower split.

 

Where the E5 scores is the Upper MIDI routing. Really annoying that it was dropped on the E6.

 

As for the VR730 action it would be so much better with lighter springs. I reckon they have the same ones as the Electro 5/6D. It's about 100g to depress a key! Should be around 70-80 max. I swapped the springs on my E6D feels great now. If I ever picked up a VR730 again I would do the same.

[AnotherScott]

Just to clarify: Electro 6 has a better output routing mode: Left = Main (Pianos and Sample Synth + Reverb) Right = Organ (No reverb). So you can have your Vent or whatever always on the organ irrespective of split.

 

The problem with the Electro 5 is the routing - Upper/Lower only, not by section. So what comes out of the L/R is dependent on what section is playing on the Upper/Lower split.

Which of the two systems is better or worse depends on your usage. For organ into a Vent, the E6 is better, because you can do a 2-manual upper/lower organ split and have both parts go to the Vent; and also you can leave the Vent permanently engaged and not worry aboug inadvertently sending some other sound into your Leslie effect. But for LH bass, the E5 is better, because you can send your bass to a bass amp, or separately to FOH so that the soundperson can balance bass and drums without every bass adjustment also changing the level of the keys.

 

But that, along with some of the E5 MIDI routing you referred to, I think are by-products of the entirely different designs of the two boards. Electro 5 was built around the concept of key regions (upper and lower), and you pick the sound/function you want for the region. Electro 6 flips that, it is built around the idea of sound sections (organ, piano, and sample/synth), and you pick the key region you want for the sound. So there is no "upper section" or "lower section" control scheme like there was on the E5... things are generally addressed by sound engine instead of by key location.

 

I swapped the springs on my E6D feels great now.

Which ones did you use?

[ChazKeys]

M-Audio Keystation ES - very old now so quite cheap. An even lighter choice would be swapping the springs with the Novation SL range but secondhand prices are too high. However, as the Electro isn"t just an organ board the ES is a great option.

[analogman1]

Just my .02...

I use an Electro 5D 73 key, with waterfall action.

It's my workhorse for everything...

Sure, it's a compromise like everything else but it won't let you down in any one area, too much...

I've adapted my piano technique to it for most things (OK, you're not going to do a full-blown classical gig with it but then again, only a real piano would suffice anyway!)

And the organ and Rhodes sound great to me... again, a real B3 or Rhodes would be ideal but of course, most of us don't have them or can't justify moving them, etc.

At the end of the day, find something and realize it's a "clone" of something regardless...as were the original B3 and Rhodes, anyway...you're far better off worrying about music than equipment. It's an endless rabbit hole...

If you could find one of these, used, for a decent price, you couldn't go wrong.

[ChazKeys]

Drifted away from the OP. I think a used VR-730 would be perfect. You have an acoustic piano so the 730 will give you all the other sounds. It"s even got a looper - only 20 secs though. If you were going to use it for gigs that would be a very different situation. You could even save a bit of money and get the VR-09 if you can live with the sub par keyboard.

[Lyon]

Really looking forward to getting my hands on one!

 

I'm OK with spending a bit more on a new piece of gear, especially since I plan to hang onto it for a good long time. And I'm OK spending more on a better action, too; that kind of thing can really drive me nuts, and the whole semi-weighted/waterfall thing will probably take some getting used to anyhow!

[ShadowMan]

+1 on Alto Music... great store and very knowledgable staff. It"s definitely worth the drive. Last time I was there (pre-pandemic) they had a really well-stocked keyboard department, and I was able to check out lots of boards.

 

For what it"s worth, I have both the Vox Continental 73 and Nord Electro 6. I prefer the pianos and EP"s on the Vox, but when I need B3 sounds, I use the Nord.

 

Hope this helps!

[Lyon]

Definitely!

 

It looks like Alto doesn't have any Electros in stock, but I'll see if they can arrange to have one in store so I can compare it to the others. I just "found" some extra money in my budget, so I could conceivably stretch to a Nord if it seemed worth it -- but I'm definitely looking at just 1 board! :-)

 

And I keep reminding myself that my needs are simple: Nice organ and EP sounds, maybe a few additional samples and the ability to split, but nothing terribly complicated. I'm basically a straightahead jazz pianist who loves B3 players (I'm currently going over over all of my Brian Charette and Dr. Lonnie Smith recordings) and got hooked on Rhodes through all those great CTI records (and Hank Jones, of all people), but who has almost no experience with these instruments and is completely out-of-date technologically. So I'm *extremely* naive by the standards of this forum -- which is exactly why I came to you all for help!

[AnotherScott]

For what it"s worth, I have both the Vox Continental 73 and Nord Electro 6. I prefer the pianos and EP"s on the Vox, but when I need B3 sounds, I use the Nord.

I'm with you on EPs and organ, but piano is a tougher call... I prefer Nord piano sound, but I prefer the piano playability of the Vox's action.

[ShadowMan]

Yes indeed, Scott - the action on the Vox is terrific for piano. I really like the longer keys, too.