Advice needed: Crumar Mojo vs VR-730

[Lyon]

Hello everyone,

 

Longtime lurker, first-time poster. :-) I've learned a lot by reading forum posts, and now I need your expert advice.

 

I'm an amateur acoustic jazz pianist, but have always loved B3 and Rhodes sounds. For my birthday, I'm going to get myself a keyboard to compliment the nice upright in my home music studio. After much waffling and gnashing of teeth (and a long conversation with a friend who is a professional B3 player), I realized that despite my ingrained biases, I didn't need something with 88 weighted keys and a great piano sound; I have that already, and it doubles as a place to rest my stereo equipment and wifi router. My budget is ~ $1500, and I won't be using this for gigging, just for playing at home alone or with family and friends.

 

I've tried out a bunch of keyboards at Sam Ash and Guitar Center in Manhattan, including several I learned about through the forum, but nothing I could find on display quite did the trick. So after reading lots of posts and consulting with my B3 buddy, I have narrowed my options to two that I have *not* been able to try for myself: the Crumar Mojo 61 and the VR-730.

 

It seems like these are very different beasts, and I am torn. I like the idea of a compact keyboard with an authentic B3 sound and what folks say is a really good Rhodes sound, but I also like the idea of a 73-key instrument that is easy to use and can do a little bit of everything. (I'm not much of a synth guy, but I'm sure I would enjoy putting an acoustic bass in my left hand and a Rhodes in my right, messing about with some of the other electric and acoustic sounds, using the looper and USB recording capability, etc.) Not being a professional organist or Rhodes player, I doubt I'd know the difference between a good emulation and a super-accurate one -- but I've heard enough of both instruments to know the difference between a good one and a bad one. And mostly, I'm just after pleasure: Being able to sit down and hear some of those sounds that I've always enjoyed and rarely had the chance to make myself, whether playing solo or accompanying my son on trumpet.

 

Any advice? Or should I just flip a coin and get it over with? ;-)

[ElmerJFudd]

How elaborate are your arrangements or the stuff you like to play at home? Do you need splits and layers? A large palette of sounds, including synthy stuff? Orchestra stuff? If you desire stuff like that the VR-730 is very cool.

 

If you want something that captures more of the vibe of a B3 organ, that"s mainly focused on it and various Electric Piano tones (not exclusively but definitely where the developer"s heart is), then I"d go for the Crumar. If you really get into it, maybe you get the dual manual and pedals some day.

 

spending more of your money down the road - how it sounds and feels to play, you may also get the hankering to grab a real Leslie cabinet.

[Morrissey]

What were some of the boards that you tried and didn't quite make the cut? It sounds like you have a good sense of the differences between the Mojo and the VR730. Maybe we can help you pick between them based on what you didn't like about your other semi-finalists.

[AnotherScott]

For organ and Rhodes, I'd be tempted to add the Vox Continental to the short list (available in 61 or 73 keys), just because I'd say it probably has the best action of the three. In total flexibility, it's in between the two, but closer to the Roland than to the Crumar. Organ sound/functionality is probably weakest of the 3, whereas on the Roland, I'd say the EPs are the weakest of the three.

[Delaware Dave]

The Mojo 61 is a mono timbral instrument meaning it can play only one of its instruments at one time, so you cant split the keyboard and play two different instruments at the same time nor layer instruments. It is also, as you know, a 61 key keyboard. The acoustic piano is also the weak link as it is not on par with the other instruments in its offering. The VR allows you to use more than one sound. I'm not sure how many different sounds are available to be split and played at the same time but I'm quite certain that it is NOT mono-timbral. My personal belief is that the the Mojo has the edge in sound quality (other than the piano), both keyboards' keybeds are very playable and the VR has an additional octave of keys. If it were me I would decide which features are the most important to you and choose the keyboard that addresses those needs.

[Coker]

You might want to check out the SP6 and MODX7. They are much more capable all-rounders than the keyboards you listed, but their B3 emulations aren"t up to 'MOJO' standards. I bought and returned the MOJO this month after realizing that the incremental quality of the B3 emulation (and drawbars) weren"t enough of an improvement over my MODX to justify keeping it. I, like you, am a pianist wanting to branch out.

[Lyon]

Oh, man -- I knew I'd come to the right place. :-)

 

Even when I was gigging (on a Roland FP-9 with a Kurzweil Micropiano box--talk about dating yourself!), my arrangements were simple: just trio and quintet stuff, nothing complicated with the keyboard. It would be nice to replicate the sound of a full rhythm section, but I could also live without it. I've never worked with layers, but think I'd enjoy messing about with splits. Do you think I'd miss the octave on a 61-key instrument when playing bass lines and comping?

 

I tried scads of keyboards before I eliminated the fully-weighted variety: everything from the Yamaha CP88 and P515 to the Kawai ES8 and ES110, the Roland FP-90 and FP-30, the Korg SV1 and SV2, and anything else I could get my sweaty hands on. The Korg was my original favorite, but I found the organ didn't excite me as much as the electric piano sounds, and then there are the weighted keys (which I like in principle, but don't want in this particular instance), and the price.

 

There were a lot I couldn't try, too, including the MODX7 and the Vox Continental; but my B3 friend thought the non-B3 organ sounds on the Vox were its strengths, while I was a bit wary -- perhaps foolishly so? -- of those virtual drawbars. (I can't remember now why I eliminated the MODX7--probably something silly and arbitrary. But I was also starting to feel like I was looking at instruments that could do a lot more than I really needed them to, and on top of my other criteria, I'd like something easy to use: just sit down, punch a few buttons, and play.)

 

Are the actions on the Mojo, the VR-730, and the Vox Continental equally suited to organ and EPs? Is one better for one or the other? I guess I'm looking for a good compromise--something where I can learn to slide around as I might like to on an organ, but that wouldn't be so light I'd notice the absence of any heft when pretending to play a Rhodes.

[Baggypants]

Nothing holds a candle to the VR-730's price if you want the most features, There are 2 VA synths tucked in there, a nice tub of accessible effects, a looper, usb to play and record stuff on and of course a D-Beam!.

 

On top of that the board member Frankie has created the de-facto tool for it as well with a CTRLR panel that has a bullet point list as long as a government stimulus act https://ctrlr.org/roland-vr09-vr730-v-combo-editor/

Such as: 1000's of hidden sounds, Ups the default splits from 1 and layers from 2 to 4 splits and layers, lots of additions for the rhythm stuff.

 

Having said that, the B3 overdrive still sounds a bit like a coffee grinder, and I can easily believe there are better clav sounds, and likely better EP sounds although I like the EP's. I have the VR-09 so I can't comment on action. But then I'd much rather go for features and I tend to just get used to whatever action is on the board.

[ElmerJFudd]

imho there"s no action that"s going to feel like a Rhodes and a B3. But if you need to play EPs and Organ, some would prefer it feels more like one or the other. The compromise would be a semi-weight synth action. We"ve heard from a few people that the Yamaha YC-61 feels nice for organ, acoustic and electric piano.

[AnotherScott]

The VR allows you to use more than one sound. I'm not sure how many different sounds are available to be split and played at the same time

Officially two, though you can create combinations of more using the CTRLR editor.

 

You might want to check out the SP6 and MODX7.

SP6 is an 88 hammer action, though a semi-weighted 76 SP6-7 is on its way, along with the PC4-7 which provides 9 simultaneous sliders and the ability to load in new samples, like Busch's Purgatory Creek Rhodes.

 

think I'd enjoy messing about with splits. Do you think I'd miss the octave on a 61-key instrument when playing bass lines and comping?

Yeah, I think it's a pretty serious constraint, though usable (I've certainly done my share of gigs where my top board was a 61 that I split for LH bass). One thing that can help a bit is if you choose a board that lets you easily octave-shift your RH sound on the fly while leaving your LH bass sound in place, whether though an octave-shift button that only affects the RH sound, or easy access and seamless switching between user presets that include the same sound except for the octave of the RH sound.

 

There were a lot I couldn't try, too, including the MODX7 and the Vox Continental; but my B3 friend thought the non-B3 organ sounds on the Vox were its strengths, while I was a bit wary -- perhaps foolishly so? -- of those virtual drawbars. (I can't remember now why I eliminated the MODX7--probably something silly and arbitrary.

The Vox LED sliders are a mixed blessing... they're always in the "right" position when you call up a preset, and they let you do some cool things, but they can also be a bit finicky to operate. Non-B3 sounds are arguably its strengths, and it doesn't give you all the B3 controls that most "clonewheels" give you, but it's still a significant step up from, say, the SV2 you tried. MODX is less of an organ than the Vox, e.g. you can't easily do 9-drawbar adjustment.

 

Are the actions on the Mojo, the VR-730, and the Vox Continental equally suited to organ and EPs? Is one better for one or the other? I guess I'm looking for a good compromise--something where I can learn to slide around as I might like to on an organ, but that wouldn't be so light I'd notice the absence of any heft when pretending to play a Rhodes.

I haven't played the Roland or Mojo, though I've played other heavily and lightly sprung Fatar TP/8O based boards, and between those experiences and people's comments, I'm pretty confident that the Vox has the best action here... I'd guess about tied with Mojo for organ, and best of the three for Rhodes. In sounds, organ is probably Mojo then Roland then Vox; EP is probably about tied between Vox and Mojo, both being better than Roland. But there is of course some subjectivity to all of this. And sometimes it's a little hard to evaluate a Rhodes sound apart from its action, the two are intertwined.

[Lyon]

Maybe I'm imagining this, but I seem to recall that when playing around with the SV1/SV2 in the store, the thing would actually respond to changes in my attack the way a Rhodes would on the rare occasions I got to play one. Would the Mojo, VR-730 and Vox all behave this way as well?

 

I think part of the problem here is that I know I need to compromise, but because my experience with electronic keyboards is so limited (that Roland FP-9 was my first and last), I'm not sure which features/functions/characteristics I'm going to enjoy--or miss--the most.

[ajstan]

Since others are throwing out options outside of the Mojo and the VR-730, if you decide you're OK with 61 keys, a "used" Nord Electro 6D can be had for $1599 at the pro audio site. Organ with drawbars, APs, EPs, and a sample player - all with access to the Nord Sample Library.

[AnotherScott]

Maybe I'm imagining this, but I seem to recall that when playing around with the SV1/SV2 in the store, the thing would actually respond to changes in my attack the way a Rhodes would on the rare occasions I got to play one. Would the Mojo, VR-730 and Vox all behave this way as well?

Yes, in that they all respond to velocity. No, in that the feel of a hammer action is different from the feel of a non-hammer action. IOW, they will all respond to changes in your attack, but not in quite the same way (with the same responsiveness/dynamic control) as a hammer action board like the SV1/SV2. Again, Ithink there is a consesnsus that Vox will be best of the three in this regard... but still not as good as a hammer action board like the SV1/SV2. OTOH, organ plays quite poorly from an SV1/SV2. One of the reasons so many people use (at least) 2 boards is that it's impossible to find a single action that works as well for pianos/EPs as it does for organs. (Though some are better compromises than others.)

 

You may want to check the Mojo threads if you haven't already. IIRC, a lot of people really love the Rhodes sound, but few people feel it plays particularly well from the Mojo action. But yes, you pretty much have to decide on your priorities. Best organ sound, best Rhodes sound, best organ action, best Rhodes action... none of these three has "all of the above," so the question is where you are more willing to compromise. And then, the variable of your interest in having more than just those sounds, and/or more than 61 keys.

[Lyon]

Thank you all so much; this has been incredibly helpful.

 

Based on everything I've learned here, I'm now more weighing the 73-key Vox Continental versus the VR-730. Aside from the drawbars (virtual vs physical), the difference in action, and the relative strengths of their EPs and organs, what are the principal differences between those two? It seems as if the Vox does have some other sounds on board, for example. And how are their actions different? Is the Vox more responsive or slightly more weighted?

 

(On the subject of actions, I read some nice things about the 68-key Dexibell VIVO S1, but wasn't sure about its organ and EP sounds.)

[AnotherScott]

Based on everything I've learned here, I'm now more weighing the 73-key Vox Continental versus the VR-730. Aside from the drawbars (virtual vs physical), the difference in action, and the relative strengths of their EPs and organs, what are the principal differences between those two? It seems as if the Vox does have some other sounds on board, for example. And how are their actions different? Is the Vox more responsive or slightly more weighted?

A lot of the major differences are in my never-complete chart at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fr9cObRaep37A9Y1PZtRkVWxKKDsXUGPk9ubfhYgoSk/edit?usp=sharing

 

Some big Roland advantages are the fully editable VA synth, more split flexibility, and a display that indicates patch names and such. Vox is stronger on patch selection (you can get to more than 16 of your sounds without having to scroll, and you can also recall those patches via MIDI). I think the biggest thing about the Vox is just how it feels to play, its especially nice action. It's hard to compare actions in words, and I haven't played the VR-730, though reports are that it feels basically the same as the Nords (and Dexibell J7) which I have played, and in that case, yeah, I'd call the Vox more responsive in pianos/EPs (the front panel Dynamics knob helps there). I wouldn't know how to compare how "weighted" they feel, but the Vox has less pushback... and in that sense, I guess you could say that it is both the lighter feeling action as well as the one that feels more like a piano, even if that seems paradoxical.

 

As has been discussed here numerous times before, I am not a fan of the heavily srpung actions. Sometimes I've used aftermarket replacement springs to lighten them up, but those are hard to find. But that may be leading me to be harsher on the VR-730 action than some others would be.

 

I read some nice things about the 68-key Dexibell VIVO S1, but wasn't sure about its organ and EP sounds.)

Dexibell will have some nice EPs you can download into it, but no organ functionality, you have to go up to the J7 for that.

[Lyon]

What a great chart! How does that Numa Compact 2X compare in terms of organ and EP sounds?

[AnotherScott]

What a great chart! How does that Numa Compact 2X compare in terms of organ and EP sounds?

It's not bad... I'd say the EPs are better than the Roland's. Organ's biggest weakness is rotary/overdrive, but at its price you can afford to add a Lester K or Neo Ventilator to address that. The big limitations there are that, since you can't send your organ sounds out separately from your other sounds, you can't use the pedal effect on organ without also using it on any other sound you may be splitting/layering with the organ, plus even when playing just one sound at a time, you have to remeber to switch the pedal in and out when switching between, for example, organ and piano. (BTW, you'll run into the same issues if you choose to put one of these pedals on the Roland or Vox, too.)

 

Another way to go: Connect Numa Compact 2X to another organ sound source via MIDI. The Numa actually has better MIDI functionality than the Roland, Vox, or Crumar... you can easily split/layer your internal/external sounds and use the 9 sliders to control the external organ sound. Not only does this give you a better organ sound, it also gives you the extra outout for your organ sound so you solve the problems I mentioned associated with adding a rotary pedal. So here are interesting possibilities (all cheaper than a Vox 73, though I realize even that pushes beyond your ~$1500 budget):

 

* Numa Compact 2X + iPad running B3X (and possibly other apps if desired)

* Numa Compact 2X + HX3 module

* Numa Compact 2X + Gemini desktop module (gives you the same organ and EP sound as the Mojo, and a lot more)

 

The main compromises here as I see them are:

 

* action - It's not a terrible action (it's better than what's in numerous sub-$1k models from other companies), but pushback is greater than I'd like, and keys get harder to press as you move further back. So it's action is probably not as good as any of the other three (Vox/Mojo/VR730).

 

* ergonomics - There are a few issues here. One, there is no free panel space, so you'll have to find someplace to put your add-on iPad/module, preferably within eyeshot though that's not necessarily essential (though since this is for home rather than gigging use, this can probably be easily addressed). Changing patches pretty much always requires scrolling with the knob, there is no direct button patch select except for being able to use the 8 buttons to call up 8 internal single sounds (though you could address this by using, for example, a smartphone or iPad app to directly call up patches... though we may now be increasing wiring complication, too... but also, in a home environment, quick patch changes are less of an issue, so this might not be a concern anyway). The sliders have a shorter throw than full length drawbars. (Actually, of the four, only the Mojo has traditionally sized/shaped/spaced drawbars.)

 

* probably needing a small mixer and associated additional wiring. The iPad could send its sound back into the keyboard to merge with its own audio out; I'm pretty sure the other modules would require you to add a small mixer to combine the sounds of the Numa and the module... another piece to find a place for. Though again, in a non-mobile setup, this may not really be much of an issue.

 

* possible issue of latency on the iPad...?

 

There is also the subjective sum of "how does this experience feel as a whole?"which is a combination of sounds, action, the elusive FTEC (finger to ear connection), operational ergonomics, and even how it looks. Which means the checklists are a starting point, but there's no way to know how you'll feel about playing them until you play them.

[Lyon]

Thanks so much for this!

 

I had seen references to the Numa and was originally intrigued by it because of the built-in speakers (I had initially hoped to avoid buying monitors), but couldn't try one and certainly would never have figured out all these nuances on my own.

 

Since I'm in part aiming for simplicity, it seems like the Vox or VR-730 are still my best bets for self-contained units that can do everything I'd like with minimal fuss. This would be much easier if I could actually lay my hands on both of them--I'm sure I'd know right away which one I'd prefer--but I certainly have all the info I need to make a decision, if I can just bring myself to choose one over the other. :-)

[Lyon]

By the way, any suggestions for monitors ($300 or less) that would good for my 13x13 home studio, playing either the Vox or the VR-730 solo or with an acoustic instrument or two? A salesperson at Sam Ash suggested a pair of IK Multimedia iLoud Micro Monitors. Someone at Sweetwater recommended a bunch of mono PA systems, but I'm assuming stereo would be best, no?

[AnotherScott]

This would be much easier if I could actually lay my hands on both of them--I'm sure I'd know right away which one I'd prefer--but I certainly have all the info I need to make a decision, if I can just bring myself to choose one over the other. :-)

If your credit card can handle it, you could order both from someplace that has a good return policy, and return the one you decide against. You'll probably be out about $50 on shipping it back, but you'll know you got the one you prefer. (If you buy from Guitar Center and they have a location near you, you can return it to the store and save the shipping fee, even if you bought it online.)

 

By the way, any suggestions for monitors ($300 or less) that would good for my 13x13 home studio, playing either the Vox or the VR-730 solo or with an acoustic instrument or two? A salesperson at Sam Ash suggested a pair of IK Multimedia iLoud Micro Monitors.

I'd also look at a pair of JBL 305P. The iLoud advantages would be more placement flexibility (between the smaller size, being front ported instead of rear, having a switch to compensate for desktop placement, and built in threads for stand use)... but assuming you can place them properly, I would expect the JBL to sound better.

[Lyon]

Glad I asked! The JBLs look cheaper, too. Saw some comments regarding hiss; is that really an issue? Would you only notice it when "idling" (i.e., not actually playing -- a kind of ambient thing)?

 

Great suggestion re: ordering both. I'm going to look into that! I go to Manhattan for better display model selection, but here where I live in Queens there are branches of Sam Ash and Guitar Center where I imagine I could return stuff.

[AnotherScott]

Yes, the JBLs have come down in price, I don't know whether it's permanent or a holiday sale.

 

Guitar Center lets you return online purchases at their stores, Sam Ash does not.

[Adan]

The advantages of the VR730 are as a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none-type all-in-one gigging keyboard. Great for gigging when you want to bring one board and don't need the best sounds. If I were in your shoes I'd be weighing the Mojo versus the Vox Continental. I'd probably get the Vox because, in my scheme of things, organ is more for ensemble playing and you're talking about home solo enjoyment. I don't think you'd be going wrong with either.

[Lyon]

That's good to know. And I just re-read AnotherScott's comment that the B3 on the Vox would still be a significant step up from the SV1 I tried. I would like to go for 73 keys, and it seems likely to me that the difference in organ sound quality between the Crumar and the Vox (or the VR-730) wouldn't matter to me in the long run, since I'm really just an organ enthusiast rather than an expert. :-) By that same token, maybe the difference in the ability to tweak the organ sound between the Vox and VR-730 wouldn't matter to me either. If I can hit a button and adjust a couple of sliders to get a sound I like, that should do the trick.

[drawback]

I have the JBL's and don't notice hiss. Bottom-end frequency will be lower than the iLouds, but bear in mind placement and adustments are fairly critical. if you have the desk space and isolation, the JBL's are a great value!

[Lyon]

I'll be using these in a music studio crammed with stuff: a piano, my wife's 5-octave marimba and assorted drums (she's a percussionist), file cabinets and storage bins stuffed with sheet music...so I'll either have to put them on the floor; rest them on the marimba, the acoustic piano, or the new keyboard; or find little stands or platforms for them (we have heavy music stands aplenty). Do you think that would work for the JBLs, or would it make more sense to go for the iLouds due to simpler placement?

[drawback]

I don't have experience with the iLouds, but based on what you're dealing with I think you might be better off with them. I find the JBLs aren't suited well to my space constraints and have considered a smaller setup.

 

It's got more to do with lack of proper space from back-wall to speakers and the speakers to me, than footprint.

[ajstan]

These are the stands I use for my JBL305p MKII monitors. They take up very little floor space. And yes, the 305s are usually $149 each but go on sale occasionally for $99 each. That's a great deal.

 

https://on-stage.com/products/view/10638/471162

[Lyon]

Nice! I will consult with my studio co-habitant and see what makes the most sense in terms of space and clutter. :-)

[Lyon]

FYI: I spoke with Guitar Center, and if I get a Gear Card there, I can order both boards; have them delivered to the store and set up onsite; try them out, and return the one I don't want on the spot (or even both, in the unlikely event I'm satisfied with neither). Seems like the way to go!