Elton John's take on the last American Idol

[henryrobinett]

Let me make a couple of things clear I haven't clarified in this thread because I did in another thread about the same topic a few days ago:

 

First I don't actually mean to say that American Idol is racist or the reason the inarguably three top singers were on the bottom was because of racism. That's a hard nut to swallow. There are simply too many people and too many variables to come to that conclusion conclusively. However it's undeniable to me that this is a logical conclusion that can be drawn among some, small or large, percentage of voters. The show in this case, can't be racist, unless they've fixed the results, and I don't believe they would even if they could, because the producers want, I believe, the best singers/entertainers available.

 

George - the reason I watch the show would take too long to explain I went into it several days ago. I don't have to explain or justify why I do anything to anyone but my wife and kids. I watch it. It's my business. Do I take it too seriously? Obviously.

from george costanza

Doesn't the voting reflect the general attitudes of US culture (& therefore shouldn't it be logical to expect it to reflect those biases (improper/unfair though they may be) ?

Yes, that's the point as I see it. That's the way I see it. It's not the show perse.

Does it cost to call in a vote? If so, I suggest that's one of the main points of it---to collect a bit of chump change (along with the "instant Nielson rating effect").

It doesn't cost to vote unless you're doing text messaging. I too thought at first it was a way of collecting more money, like that fake Jamican fortune teller.

I've never seen the show (other than excerpts) but I think it's about advertising & generating a built-in fan base for short-term pop acts.

 

Yes. Absolutely.

 

Alndlnbot - The point I was trying to make is that without seeing/hearing the talent in question you can't reasonably have an opinion regarding the outcome. There's nothing to say.

 

Nawledge - we can understand things on a certain level endemically. It's written in our cellular walls.

 

Racism is still here and it IS a priority. You don't need to prove it to anyone to know it's there. That's such a fucking cop out. When we get to the bottom of why people see other people as different, or "less than" or worthy of discrimination consciously or unconciously -- or even when we, and this is the big one, stop seeing people existing AS GROUP ENTITIES we've solved 95% of the worlds problems.

 

I take any kind of discrimination seriously. Racism is not exclusively perpetuated by white people you know. I want you to know that I know this. I don't define racism as merely an economic thing or a power thing or a thing of priviledge against the peons. Racism can be a thing of ATTITUDE alone.

 

Once again I'm not saying, even after this diatribe against racism, that AMERICAN IDOL is racist. IT can't be. But it certainly appears to me that a large constituency of voters voted along those lines. Maybe not even most. But enough to make an unconscious statement.

[Nawledge]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

I take any kind of discrimination seriously. Racism is not exclusively perpetuated by white people you know. I want you to know that I know this. I don't define racism as merely an economic thing or a power thing or a thing of priviledge against the peons. Racism can be a thing of ATTITUDE alone.

 

[/QB]

I do know that about you, it's one of the reasons

why your presence on the forum is so important to me. its too bad that there isn't a place where

those like us can just kick it in peace. the hate

machine just seeks to divide people any way it can, sometimes I imagine what it would be like to

be rapping about bubble gum or the fish in the ocean or something other than I do, it would be a totally diferent existence if not for the institutionalization of hatred, and acting like it doesn't exist is not an option.

[Miss Cleo]

Did some one need some advice?

[henryrobinett]

Miss Cleo, Miss Cleo, Miss Cleo!! I've missed you so much.

 

Hey Naw -- Thanks for the exchange. Keep on keeping on. We just need to remember the humanity in all of us beyond the trivial bullshit.

[george costanza]

Sure you can watch it, HR, as can anyone; I just think it's so obviously corny I can't figure why anyone would want to...but that's just me.

 

I do think the subject you've raised here is worthwhile but as I've said before elsewhere (remember Elvis?), I think the things that change people's minds/attitudes have more to do with their cultural encounters than with logical reasoning offered in discussion.

 

Let's all go read Mumbo Jumbo by Ishmael Reed & ya'll see what I mean.

"Jes' Grew" , indeed!

[RABid]

Racism is hiring a black person for a position to fill a quota with no intention of ever promoting that person.

 

Racism is a black crowd standing around watching as a white cab driver is beaten and robbed.

 

Racism is people ignoring Alan Keys in his run for president because America is not ready for a black person to be the leader of our country, or they associate him with Alan Sharp because both are black.

 

Racism is evident when a white person tries to make it as a rapper, or a black person applies for a job as software engineer.

 

To claim racism on American Idol without watching the show or being away of the history is wrong. Sometimes things just happen, statistics catches up, and the improbable happens. When people start hollering racism in these cases it only takes away from the real issues in life. I just wish people would be as concerned with racism within their own workplace, playground or home. Sadly it is much easier to get on a forum and claim racism on American idol than to deal with a racist boss or family member.

 

Robert

 

PS: Where was everyone last year when Vanessa Olivarez, the only Latin I remember ever on the series, was voted off the first week.

[Robman2]

Logic?

 

Someone was telling me of an extended two day power outage in Chicago, which disallowed a bevy O' "folks" to vote, causing the black singers to end up on the bottom last week.

 

Does that mean, (Henry put it in neutral for a second OK?) that some people who have a lot of time as stay at home whatever's get to rapidly speed and re-speed dial their "vote"?

 

That seems to be the model, there is no forclosure once a numbers been registered and logged, so essentailly it does appear that sheer numbers and "race" may play a hand at opposite ends and the middle.

 

How true ? Who cares, none of these"Singers" would rise to even the top ten of an A & R listening party.

 

That the "Red" head, sings wistfull is a throwback and I'll bet he gets a deal now that he's out. (I was told he's out so assume I do)

 

As for the "talent", who decided that styilization, became a substitute for vocal skills?

 

When I heard the big gal sing her EJ number, totally straight ahead, no shrill Whitnyesque' runs or church learned rant phrases, I thought finally, a black woman who doesn't need to emulate but creates and SINGS FROM HEART!!!!!!

 

That's the last time I watched and as I understand it, she was booted.

 

So talent, is not a criteria, and popularity plus phone banks rooted regionally are the criteria.

 

What a laugh.

 

I feel that the posted picture of our soldier yesterday being baptized in the shadow of a Mosque where we "non-racially" consider incise genocide as a method of crowd control, is far more significant than the tripe of Simon's production machine.

 

We practice racisim under the color of nationhood, so what's news about it being dolopped as fodder for people who could be reading Dean's book, or Hughe's insted of being entertained by a CRT.

 

If Idol comes back next year it will be barely.

 

Rob

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by Rabid:

Racism is evident when a white person tries to make it as a rapper, or a black person applies for a job as software engineer.

Huh!!?? What? I don't get it. As faras I'm concerned anybody can sing whatever they want. What's this software engieer shit? Did you just not finish what you were writing for brevities sake?

To claim racism on American Idol without watching the show or being away of the history is wrong. Sometimes things just happen, statistics catches up, and the improbable happens. When people start hollering racism in these cases it only takes away from the real issues in life. I just wish people would be as concerned with racism within their own workplace, playground or home. Sadly it is much easier to get on a forum and claim racism on American idol than to deal with a racist boss or family member.

 

Robert

 

PS: Where was everyone last year when Vanessa Olivarez, the only Latin I remember ever on the series, was voted off the first week.

I'm not sure who you're directing this to, but I suggest if it's directed toward me you re-read my last post. The real issues in life are all the issues in life. Sometimes people need to look at the mundane to realize what is going on. This is not small shit no matter how trivial someone who is not effected by this.

 

Oonce again I did not say, nor am I claiming that AI is racist nor am I saying that the reason those were at the bottom three was due to racism.

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by george costanza:

Sure you can watch it, HR, as can anyone; I just think it's so obviously corny I can't figure why anyone would want to...but that's just me.

 

I do think the subject you've raised here is worthwhile but as I've said before elsewhere (remember Elvis?), I think the things that change people's minds/attitudes have more to do with their cultural encounters than with logical reasoning offered in discussion.

 

Let's all go read Mumbo Jumbo by Ishmael Reed & ya'll see what I mean.

"Jes' Grew" , indeed!

Absolutely right George. However the only way peoples minds are ever going to change is realize there's a problem in the first place. Without knowing that Stepinfetchit was offensive, without knowing that those tiny black faced pick-a-ninys (sp?) and jockies offend, or that saying th "n" word or any number of slurs are offensive nothing would ever have changed. Without marching and sitting it and yelling nobody would have known there was a need for change. I'm old enough to have done my share of marching and demonstrating. Without continually saying "Fuck you! I'm not going to take that type of fucking bullshit any more!!" it will just continue or slide back as has been happening.

 

Listen I don't give a flying whatever how many white people get tired of hearing it. I could give a flying fuck how many complain of "reverse racism" or how many become the "angry young white men". I care about calling it as I see it when I see it. Throw it up and let's take a look at it. I might be out of line. I might be wrong. Good I can deal with that. OK. At least I took some responsibility by throwing it up for everyone to see. Silence is the real enemy.

[henryrobinett]

BTW George I think what you said -- That people's minds are changed by their "cultural encounters" is foggy. Do you mean cultural upbringing?

 

Commuication is the only thing that can handle cultural encounters. Without communication/discussion we're doomed to repeat cultural mistakes.

 

We are not al the same on some levels. I used to think we were, but we're not. Sure we all have blood that flows through our veins. We all have dreams and hopes, desires. We all have done things we're not happy about, . . .but there are cultural differences that can be siginficant. As I've gone through these discussions before only to be met with misunderstanding, un-understanding and refusal to see I have come to believe there are fundamental differences.

[henryrobinett]

Guys/gals. I want to apologize for going all deep and shit again. I get so worked up over this stuff. This stuff is hard wired. I don't know any black person how isn't hardwired in this way. The stuff is deep, way down in the chromosomes. I would like to be able to have a "fair and balanced" dialogue about this without flying off in every direction. But just realize how deep these wounds are to black people in the US. And more specifically to me, because I can't speak for everybody.

 

I've tried to do my part to alleviate the problem. I get worked up when met with indifference and certainly any invalidation of the subject.

 

Sorry.

[RABid]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

Huh!!?? What? I don't get it. As faras I'm concerned anybody can sing whatever they want. What's this software engieer shit? Did you just not finish what you were writing for brevities sake?

No I was not throwing that at you Henry, but at the general tone this thread was taking. Rather than explain the parts of my post that you do not get, I'll just let it drop.

[Franknputer]

henry, I love most of what you say here - I think you're definitely one of the best minds that hang around this little corner of the Internet. And let me make clear - not trying to blow my own horn on the subject - that I despise racism, and do my best to get past those things that have been inflicted on my mind over the years; my own racist tendencies are the hardest to deal with. It's a bitch to un-learn stuff that has crept into your consciousness.

 

I would respectfully submit, though, that there are more factors in play than just racism of the voters. It would seem to me that you need a demographic breakdown of the votes first to ever make that claim.

 

Also, it may just be according to who connected & who didn't on a given night. I've seen some of this season's show, and there are definitely on & off nights for each of the contestants. And I suspect that many people change their opinions due to how someone did that night, vs. past performance.

 

AND - I still think that there are a lot of votes cast for other reasons...many of them. So the way these play out may or may not reflect racism as much as an identity. Consider this: My suspicion for why the red-headed kid stayed so long is that he is 16 - smack in the middle of the demographic appeal for the show. Now, if a bunch of suburban white kids are inclined to vote for him because they identify with him, and want to be like him at that moment - does this necessarily translate into racism?

 

Again, just putting this out for the sake of civil debate. There's only one race, anyway - Human.

[henryrobinett]

Kemp - I think you are one hundred percent right. I am one of the best minds around here. JUST KIDDING!! Thanks for the compliment. No, I think you're right about the show, 100%.

 

It's so confusing because I wrote about this on another thread. It's hard to keep up with what I say. I'm cocnsitent (I hope) but I don't include many things I've said before because, well, I said it already. This is as I see it. There are many factors for the vote discrepancies. Red head - he's cute. The younger girls and grandmothers (not a factor I'm sure.. I can't see them clogging the phone lines!) hit re-dial en masse. Chicago power outtage. Randy Jackson denied that this was much of a factor because something like 250 million people voted. People don't vote for who they like because - well it's a "given".

 

I think any racism was minor, probably. It's really hard and perhaps impossible in this case to generalize. I rather reject the idea that the votes were split between black voters and white voters as this supports the racist take. In other words that the three top singers were on the bottom because their vote was split. I mean maybe it was. I certainly don't think it's a justification but rather an explanation for racism.

 

I just tend to have too much faith in people. I mean I'm not going to stop expecting better.

[EXAGON]

If the US folk preferes white skin instead of talent, just continue giving them the crap they want.

Great US pop music was always ruled by blacks anyway.

[Robman2]

EXAGON, we are not going to start all of that crap from last year again are we?

 

BTW, the riffs attributed to the founders of rock and roll IE: Ike, Chuck, Scotty Moore, Bill Haley and Lee Lewis, much of that whole thread from last year...can be heard in note for note glory on Doughboys, Playboys and Cowboys, a compliation of (gasp) country music from the late twenties through the forties.

 

Copping licks was a state of mind long before the era we were arguing over in that thread, was even sprouting wings.

 

Rob

[nhcomp45aol.com]

Racism is most of the TV shows having almost all Jewish actors when they make up only 4 percent of the nations population. The Blacks and Latinos have a good amount of shows with some Irish and Itallians here and there. The Germans, Swedes and Austrians who make up the bulk of this country are not allowed the same opportunity. Paul.

[Robman2]

nhcomp, etc...is that short for nincompoop?

 

What the fuck are you talking about?

 

Perhaps you need to bait on a white supremecist board.

 

Jim Belushy, Romano, Paris Hilton, yeah they be card carryin' members of the Kinesett

 

What horses ass breakfast cerel do you chow down on?

[nhcomp45aol.com]

You feelin alright dude, I have no idea what you're talkin about

[Raymar]

I have a theory as to why those three singers were voted into the bottom catagory. Rebellion. Maybe people are getting sick of the assembly line mentality of creating an "Idol". Idols should be natural phenomenons like Elvis, the Beatles, Dylan(pre-Victoria's Secret), Jim Morrison, Hendrix, etc., that are of their time, rebelling against the established norms, making bonifide history proving themselves in small venues knocking out the competition one by one through the process of natural selection of the fittest conquering larger and larger portions of the planet until finally the suits have to give in reluctantly.

 

Steve

[Nawledge]

I don't know what bothers people more.

that i am black

or that I talk about racism.

 

reverse Racism. wtf is that! I thought there was just racism, I mean the phrase itself sounds like someone recognizes what racism is, and thinks theres nothing wrong with it but then gets racism directed at him or herself and thinks its wrong simply because of the direction that it's going in...wtf is that?

 

sh_t white rapper= eminem

dope white rappers= aesop rock, Elp, sage francis and most of anticons roster.

 

if you think that because white people think experience racism that black people should stop talking about racism then you look just like what

you sound like. white people experiencing racism

doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be talked about or confronted, it means exactly thatit needs to be talked about and confronted.!!!

 

affirmative action, nobody said it but who thought about it. well... why don't you ever hear

about reverse descrimination regarding women and affirmative action comparable to what you hear about reverse racism and affirmative action?

simple answer. alot of those women aren't black. and we every man woman and child knows that equality for women is a damn for real issue and has been, who's disputing it?......no one.....

so. if you work for a company like walmart who didn't even let black people eat in the store much less work there, and your company is also on american soil then your damn right you have a quota, and the reason you have a quota is because you won't hire equally unless the government forces you to.

 

i'd apologize but for what?

[Franknputer]

Good point, Nawledge. Racism is racism, and there is no one color who is exempt from getting or giving.

 

It still kills me how some people get so worked up about their race, when it's a factor that you have absolutely 0 control over. It's not like you can change it, or choose it - it's just how it happened.

 

If you look hard enough (and you don't have to look that hard, really) there's stuff to love, admire, and also hate, about members of every 'race' - so get over it, already! White (pink) is no better or worse than Black (brown) than is red, yellow, or olive.

 

Divisions between 'us' and 'them' only serves to narrow your own self. To me, the proof is obvious: the best of music is borne of the combination & distillation of different approaches & styles, right? Jazz music broke a lot of those color barriers, for instance. Black & White musicians played together, in spite of laws against it in many places, and the music grew & prospered in amazing ways. Rock too - its roots are from all over the map, and all the derivation since have multiple influences, too. Some of my favorite music these days is the stuff that incorporates other cultural influences - there is some incredible stuff coming out of the Middle East, for example, as they have digested modern Western music along with the traditional music of their cultures.

 

Don't cheat yourselves, folks. Hate is the easy way out.

[henryrobinett]

Good, good points Naw and Kemp.

 

Boy howdy.

[Darklava]

http://www.mcclave.com/puke/images/hurl_small.gif

[henryrobinett]

OK. What exactly did you mean by that darklava? Take some responsibility. You posted it. You explain it.

[Darklava]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

OK. What exactly did you mean by that darklava? Take some responsibility. You posted it. You explain it.

That's what I think of T.V and American Dream

Smasher.I never liked American Idol.I got knocked

to the ground by all this bullshit going down

Time is truly wasted...you know the song

[henryrobinett]

OK. I didn't know you go knocked to the ground.

[Nawledge]

Originally posted by Christopher Kemp:

If you look hard enough (and you don't have to look that hard, really) there's stuff to love, admire, and also hate, about members of every 'race' -

.....

'hate, the easy way out' I need a t-shirt like that chris.

[Nawledge]

to black racist i'm not black enough, and to white racist i'm too black , everyday i'm like

"get up out of my space with that madness" unity

is the only thing i've found worth struggling for

[henryrobinett]

I hear you Naw. I've always had the same problem. Don't tell anybody but some black folk is the biggest racists I know. My aunt tops the list.

 

But I've always managed to see things a certain way. Maybe it was in part due to my father who never let me discriminate racially. I've said this before. "Does the fact that Tommy is Chinese have anything to do with the story Henry? We don't make those kinds of distinctions in this house." So for me, from day one, seeing racial distinctions as being in anyway relevant was not an option. It didn't even register. Not until I started seeing people acting like assholes about it all. Then not copping to it.

 

I've always had a lot of white friends, black friends. Asian, latino . . . It just seems weird that most people have a reaction when a person of another race walks in the room.