Elton John's take on the last American Idol

[Nawledge]

I see what you're saying Dr. tAz, did your brothers and you grow up separately or were all of you raised with your father, that's an usual divided conclusion by you and them for sure.

 

Dallas thats very interesting, and not the first time something like that has made itself possibly

evident in the public eye, for instance it's no secret that alot of people cozy up to Will smith for the same reason they do Rueben S. Will Smith

is one of the greatest marketing campaigns in in history but there's not much talk about it. the fabric of america is deepseeded with very strange

fruit and it really comes down to if there is such a thing as a 'white america' and a 'black america', I personally believe there is enough evidence to unequivically show that there is, among other 'americas', and when ever you attatch

the word america to a heavily publicized event the representations come out. So I'd approach the situation like where did most of those votes come from, and what is the historical record (not scientific) of the populace in those places.

Who was voting on american Idol, it wasn't most of us on this forum so who was it.

[doc taz]

Originally posted by Nawledge:

I see what you're saying Dr. tAz, did your brothers and you grow up separately or were all of you raised with your father, that's an usual divided conclusion by you and them for sure.

Yes, we all grew up together. Even that can never guarantee that the kids will impart the same views as their parents. While I disagree with some finer points that my dad may make, in general, on this issue, I agree with him. Dad's point of edcuating yourself about these things really struck a chord with me. Therefore, I don't prejudge anyone. I usually give folks a chance or two.

 

The really sad thing about this is that my graphic designer bro thought that my dad was completely racist. I was like, "What? Come on..." He practically cut in mid-sentence, when my dad was trying to explain the whole bus service thing. Then my other brother basically goes along with him. The other really sad thing about this is that my g.d. bro went to a well-regarded art school with a very diverse student and faculty base. It boggles my mind.

 

Oh well, nothing I can really do about it... any improvement has to come from their end.

[henryrobinett]

Generally speaking any time you go down a road, talking about a group or race of people by saying things like, "They . . . " you're coming close to possibily making a racist statement. "They are in control of money" Or they head up the major financial institutions around the world" or "They can all dance really well" or "they can't drive". Any time you lump people together and generalize about them you're entering a lie into the equation because it's simply not true. People are not groups, they are individuals. You can say there are a lot of blacks playing in the NBA but you can't say all blacks play basketball. The statement "Blacks play basketball" is exactly the same thing. "Whites are racist". You can't generalize like that about people. It's called racism.

 

So Taz I have no idea whether your father was racist or not because I haven't heard specifically what he said, but I can imagine your brothers reacting because what it sounds like you were beginning to say was a standard generalization about jewish people.

[CP]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

Generally speaking any time you go down a road, talking about a group or race of people by saying things like, "They . . . " you're coming close to possibily making a racist statement. "They are in control of money" Or they head up the major financial institutions around the world" or "They can all dance really well" or "they can't drive". Any time you lump people together and generalize about them you're entering a lie into the equation because it's simply not true. People are not groups, they are individuals. You can say there are a lot of blacks playing in the NBA but you can't say all blacks play basketball. The statement "Blacks play basketball" is exactly the same thing. "Whites are racist". You can't generalize like that about people. It's called racism.

 

Henry, I normally agree with you. However, on this one I don't. People who speak like that are engaging in stereotyping. Generally speaking, everyone does it (that's a stereotype, I know ) Stereotyping is not hurtful to the one being stereotyped unless it is coupled by an action. For example, if someone says "All Blacks are lazy". So what? What's the big harm? However, if that someone is in human resources in a major corporation, and takes that mindset when reviewing applications, then there could be a problem. To further that; if that person doesn't hire any Blacks because they believe that stereotype, then that becomes racist behaviour. Another example, is a teacher who has that mindset and teaches their students based on that perception.

 

We have to be careful when labeling language as racist. I don't give a damn if someone calls me the "n word". What I do care about is when I am not treated fairly because of the color of my skin. I do know in some instances language can be hurtful, but only in the instance of when a stereotype is repeated so often that it is accepted as the truth by those doing the stereotyping and those who are stereotyped. This is especially harmful to Black youth, who have to overcome many stereotypes, and a lot of times an inferiority complex.

 

But that's a different topic.

 

Peace.

[Wewus432]

It wouldn't surprise me a damn bit if American Idol was just totally rascist. To me it represents a lot of the bad things about human society. Why not rascism too? WTF? American Idol is shallow, meaningless, homogenous, innocuous, whiny-ass, fluffy, creepy, idiotic, ridiculous, irritating, overbearing, overexposed..... bullshit, anyway.

[henryrobinett]

I think stereotyping is extremely harmful -- and we ALL do it. I was actually taught that stereotyping is harmful from my parents and it's one of the things I still agree with them about.

 

There is a fallacy and I keep repeating it because it's a fallacy that is very, very ingrained. We are individuals not group entities. Stereotyping is an easy way of trying to categorize so you can generalize data to think with. But the conclusions are wrong because the data is flawed. We can't generalize about people.

 

If someone thinks "blacks are lazy" he has drawn a racist conclusion whether that is on a personal level or a corporate level. I care whether someone one has this viewpoint of me based on a stereotypical image, rather than pure observation. He can draw that conclusion quite easily from hanging around me for any length of time! But if he comes to this purely by oberving that I'm BLACK that is extremely harmful.

[henryrobinett]

I think stereotyping is extremely harmful -- and we ALL do it. I was actually taught that stereotyping is harmful from my parents and it's one of the things I still agree with them about.

 

There is a fallacy and I keep repeating it because it's a fallacy that is very, very ingrained. We are individuals not group entities. Stereotyping is an easy way of trying to categorize so you can generalize data to think with. But the conclusions are wrong because the data is flawed. We can't generalize about people.

 

If someone thinks "blacks are lazy" he has drawn a racist conclusion whether that is on a personal level or a corporate level. I care whether someone one has this viewpoint of me based on a stereotypical image, rather than pure observation. He can draw that conclusion quite easily from hanging around me for any length of time! But if he comes to this purely by oberving that I'm BLACK that is extremely harmful.

[DallasPA]

CP,

 

I certainly don't see stereotyping as harmless. How many times do you think "Those people or they need to be taught a lesson" preceded a black being lynched!!!!!!!

 

Stereotyping is just another form of racism, it doent necessarily make you a racist. Unfortunately it is something we all have done at one time or another.

 

Dallas

[nhcomp45aol.com]

Ever since the sixties and still to this day I say about the English (They make the best rock musicians) I've also said about the Germans (They make great inventers) When at the Dragstrip we refer to the Chevy guys as They and the Chevy guys refer to the Chrysler guys as they and we all hang out in our own groups. It doesn't mean we don't like each other, it means we have more in common with our type. Does that mean I'm racist against the English, the Germans and guys who race Chevys. Paul.

[CP]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

I think stereotyping is extremely harmful -- and we ALL do it. I was actually taught that stereotyping is harmful from my parents and it's one of the things I still agree with them about.

 

There is a fallacy and I keep repeating it because it's a fallacy that is very, very ingrained. We are individuals not group entities. Stereotyping is an easy way of trying to categorize so you can generalize data to think with. But the conclusions are wrong because the data is flawed. We can't generalize about people.

 

If someone thinks "blacks are lazy" he has drawn a racist conclusion whether that is on a personal level or a corporate level. I care whether someone one has this viewpoint of me based on a stereotypical image, rather than pure observation. He can draw that conclusion quite easily from hanging around me for any length of time! But if he comes to this purely by oberving that I'm BLACK that is extremely harmful.

Henry, once again, I agree with some of your thoughts. However, I don't see how someone thinking you are lazy is harmful to you, unless that thought causes him to harm you in some way. I believe that stereotyping has the potential to be harmful, but by itself it is not. It must be coupled with an action. I believe the person that is most hurt by the stereotype is the one making the stereotype.

 

Also, I agree that we are individuals and not group entities. However, we belong to a group of people. That is undeniable. That group also helps to define and refine us as individuals. That's where we derive our culture from. To look at a group of people and draw a conclusion about everyone in the group is ignorant, not racist.

 

Peace.

[CP]

Originally posted by DallasPA:

CP,

 

I certainly don't see stereotyping as harmless. How many times do you think "Those people or they need to be taught a lesson" preceded a black being lynched!!!!!!!

 

Stereotyping is just another form of racism, it doent necessarily make you a racist. Unfortunately it is something we all have done at one time or another.

 

Dallas

Dallas, you agree with me. Stereotyping followed by an action is what causes the problem. I, too, think that stereotyping is wrong. However, stereotyping on its own is not racist if there is no harm to the person being stereotyped.

 

I hope I'm making sense. When people with power and authority start to stereotype the potential for harm is much greater.

 

Peace.

[henryrobinett]

CP - It's thoughts that underly the intention behind action. You have to have the thought "I hate jews and I want to exterminate them" before you open the oven doors. It's the thoughts or intentions that are bad long before any action takes place. Hating jews is the harmful thing. The action that realizes that thought is evil.

[CP]

Henry, we don't disagree. Hating Jews is harmful to the one doing the hating. When that hate is manifested into action it becomes harmful to the Jews.

[Psychotronic]

Was Rubin S. percieved as a safe / unthreatening Black Male, and did this give him more of an advantage when it came to relating to the masses? Who knows.

Perhaps. But I also think that Ruben hasn't got a prayer in the real pop music industry, simply based on his physical appearance. No doubt that the guy can sing like a motherf@#$er, but little girls won't find him "dreamy" enough to want to buy his discs.

 

Therefore, is he truly an American Idol? Based on the standards of the pop world today, the answer is, unfortunately, no. The same goes for Kelly Clarkson. Frankly, I have yet to see anyone on the show who looks great, sings well enough, and commands the stage enough to have any real success in the pop world.

 

So, is racism an element of AI? I'd be more inclined to say that the whims of teenage girls are more likely to blame for the lack of real talent on the show. And let's face it -- a teenage girl wouldn't know talent if it came up and bit her. At the very least it explains the horrible mewlings of groups such as New Kids on the Block, and their subsequent popularity...

[Psychotronic]

Who was voting on american Idol, it wasn't most of us on this forum so who was it.

12-year-old girls, of course!

[henryrobinett]

CP wrote:

Henry, we don't disagree. Hating Jews is harmful to the one doing the hating. When that hate is manifested into action it becomes harmful to the Jews.

I'm glad we don't disagree. But I'd go one or two steps further. Not only is hating jews (an example) harmful to the one doing the hating it's also doing harm to the target; the one being hated. But it's also doing harm to the group to which the hater belongs. Let's say you have children and you hate jews. Well you are passing on information through behavior. This is how this stupidity spreads. Stupidity is contagious. Or if you are a well admired, charismatic individual and you show contempt for the jews others can learn this behavior. A lot of people, especially those who think they actually are a group, can be very impressionable.

 

You know what it's like to walk into a room and just feel contempt from a person, several or the whole room; people you've never met before. No action need have been taken against you, yet you've been put in a category and almost nothing you can do will shake that preconceived notion. No physical harm has happened yet on a psyhic level some harm has occurred. You in turn may feel contempt for those people who you feel don't like you. Therefore you begin to not reach for those "type" of people you think don't like you and form opinions about "those people."

 

Further if you try to get a job or a home or buy something they can not take any action whatsoever by simply not serving you or not allowing you to get that job by not picking up the application. Quite literally no action was taken.

 

Now I try to not identify with any group to the point of losing my own identity. Be that the group "black american", or the group "american", "jazz guitar player", or whatever. I think like I think not like my "group" thinks. Sometimes one can find oneself ostracized. So what? I'm not lockstep. So I disagree that we are or have to be members or parts of a group. That's where human ridiculousness occurrs more than anywhere else.

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by Psychotronic:

Perhaps. But I also think that Ruben hasn't got a prayer in the real pop music industry, simply based on his physical appearance. No doubt that the guy can sing like a motherf@#$er, but little girls won't find him "dreamy" enough to want to buy his discs.

Maybe. But the african-american music buying public has traditionally been more forgiving of physically less attractive performers IF they can SING!. Queen Latifa, Luther (had a major weight up down problem for years), Freddie Jackson, etc.. Now I see this less and less, but it's no longer a given that they won't have a career due to the shallowness of the buying public. Plus as the weight of the american public increases I see more tubby people all the time on VH-1 and MTV videos.

 

But still, you're probably right.

[Duddits]

Ruben doesn't stand a chance in the real music business not because he's a fatty pie, but because he just isn't good enough a singer.

 

I know I may just be a cat, but I wouldn't waste my time working with him.

[Darklava]

Originally posted by Duddits:

Ruben doesn't stand a chance in the real music business not because he's a fatty pie, but because he just isn't good enough a singer.

 

I know I may just be a cat, but I wouldn't waste my time working with him.

I hear he like's to eat cats.Mang you crazy

that guy can sing his ass off.

[george costanza]

Originally posted by Nawledge:

George,...it seems that the position you hold is really

about making the distinction between 'institutionalized racism' and 'racism'. I don't speak for all black people but it's my impression that most (including myself) don't care about peoples personal hatred, and actualy I do, but the problem is that in life,.. in the concept of existence even, it's not my responsibility to force you to change the matters

of your heart, even if what is in your heart pains me, but it is my responsibility that of everyone else to rebuke those imposing the will of their hatred on others, and not just rebuke it but at every turn possible. not saying that you don't know that, i'm just saying that imho it's more important to enforce equality than to try to when people over through interaction.

 

I used to be one of those people who looked at racism as people just being ignorant, I no longer

feel that its a matter of ignorance, in fact I feel that ignorance is one of the biggest lamest cop outs humanity has ever thrown up. the idea that not growing up with a white person or black person could be seen as even remotely justifiable

for mistreating a person is in my mind ludicrous notion at best. I think we are just too easy on ourselves and I think it's alot of bs. I've met alot of racist, from alot of different backgrounds and nationalities and I have yet to meet one that isn't aware of the fact that their hatred is wrong. as a matter of fact the majority of them have counted on the fact that hatred and their racist behaviour is wrong and have derrived their enjoyment from that fact. So I want humanity to come together, thats the stuff

my dreams are made of but I want equality for everyone....yesterday.

Well, I don't think in terms of "institutional racism" & generic racism---what's the diff?

To me it's all just racism/xenophobia...although there is a difference in terms of your comments about racism & ignorance.

In this area there is sometimes a difference because a lot of this crap is just generated as a way to keep poor or powerless people fighting amoung themselves rather than looking at the "real" enemy [check the movie Blue Collar*.

There's also little ignorance in the way that some haved used racism, etc., as a way to hold onto jobs, or to gain wealth, etc., but there is a certain ignorance at the root of much racism.

 

Henry, sorry to get you upset there but it bugged me that you were seeming to assign a sort of patronizing, "love the little darkies" attitude to me & I just can't go for that.

There is truth to the idea that US culture was one step closer to unity as an after-effect of jazz & R&B music, wherever you assign the credit.

 

--------------------------------

OK folks, that's 3 cultural touchstones for you:

 

MUMBO JUMBO a book by Ishmael Reed

BLUE COLLAR a film from the 1970s

BAMBOOZLED a film from the 1990s

 

(Actually 4, I forgot DO THE RIGHT THING)

 

Anyone still watching American Idiot---Oops, I mean Idol----without investigating those items has no right to participate in a discussion of racism no matter what you think.

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by george costanza:

Henry, sorry to get you upset there but it bugged me that you were seeming to assign a sort of patronizing, "love the little darkies" attitude to me & I just can't go for that.

Boy, I certainly didn't mean to do that. As a matter of fact I can't recall that I DID do that. Can you please point that out to me?

[george costanza]

Undtited to retain full context:

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

George - I was thinking about this the other day. Trying to figure out another way of explaining this. Yes, you are absolutely right. Only by cultures meeting and sharing can we eradicate something so egregious as racism. It's lack of understanding and "knowing about" a person or a people that leads to misinformation and problems. But Elvis and the like alienated black folk. The admiration, if there was any, was a one way street. Maybe white people suddenly felt more comfortable in the presence of black folk (which I doubt) or felt more familiar with their music. But it was a watered down version of black music, which every black person knew and resented. This was their music absconded.

 

Getting to know people like this just doesn't work on both sides of the isle and really neither. It'd be a little like Sally Ann saying that she so loves her darkies. She was raised by one (her Mammy) and her closest friend as a child was her Mammys girl. Well yes she was around black people. And certainly she had true affinity for them on her territory and on her terms. But it wasn't actually real. She never saw the resentment and would never understand the pain her Mammy may have felt.

 

It's like during the Nat Turner revolt a white man couldn't believe his dear slave and a man (boy he would've called him) he thought was a friend was part of this plot to overthrow and kill him and all the white people. He had NO CLUE!

You may say you didn't mean me but you certainly seemed to be implying so; certainly you were attaching it to the thoughts I expressed.

 

However I don't mean to keep going round about this.so I'll finish by expressing my idea as simply as I can.

Racicm is, to me, & I think anyone with any empathy, an obvious wrong mentality. It should not require lecturing or even explaining to become aware of this.

[henryrobinett]

Well George, how you can draw a conclusion that those examples were in anyway involving YOU is way beyond me. I was using them as examples to try and show a point of view.

 

I've been extremely frustrated because over the course of the past year we've debated this issue. And you have given not one inch to showing that you understand and have subverted what I've said and misconstrued it in any number of ways, as well as attacked me and I you. Now I think I'm a reasonable man. So if it sounds like a lecture I'm sorry. But after awhile, being blue in the face trying to politely say something, and have it time and time again come back convoluted,I don't know what to do. Like I did last year -- I stopped talking about it with you. And this is again what I willl do.

[george costanza]

HR, I quoted your own words &, as I stated, I realized that you might say you weren't directly aiming them at me...but they were aimed at anyone holding the same views I expressed---how can you say otherwise?

The effort to discuss things with you sometimes gets tiresome since you have a habit of saying something then claiming "that's not what I meant".

 

Finally, as I've tried to point out many times (several in this thread alone), the contention about Elvis is something that you, not I, keep bringing up. I've repeated put my point about cultural interaction in terms that leave Presley out of it entirely, focusing on the fact of jazz/R&B music (or other popular cultural elements) as unifying factors in the USA---not that they've been fully effective.

 

Sometimes I think you just don't want to allow that someone else may be correct about anything if their not in full agreement with you...but I'll allow others to draw their own conclusions.

I've gotta get back to the real world...

 

Now everybody, read the book MUMBO JUMBO & achieve a bit of infra dig!

[henryrobinett]

No, no. They were not directed at you or anyone who expresses your ideas. It was explaining why the idea that Elvis (and the like) brought the races together is a one sided point of view and why it's a fallacious one. I've never heard anyone but yourself express this poiint of view. I use examples all the time to more specifically explain my points of view. Having an opposing POV is not a personal attack. It's an opposing POV.

 

The souce of this dicussion comes form a thread you started about Elvis. And you brought this subject back up again. IN THIS thread you again used the term "Elvis". Now you say I'M the one who keeps bringing him up? I disagreed with the premise of that theory of yours a year or so ago and I still do. Doesn't mean I'm right and your wrong. It merely means I disagree with you. There is no correct or incorrect, merely agreement/disagreement.

[RABid]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

Queen Latifa, Luther (had a major weight up down problem for years), Freddie Jackson, etc.. Now I see this less and less, but it's no longer a given that they won't have a career due to the shallowness of the buying public. Plus as the weight of the american public increases I see more tubby people all the time on VH-1 and MTV videos.

 

But still, you're probably right.

I agree with your sentiment here and wonder where we are heading. We are seeing more and more normal every day people in commercials. Bald, overweight, bad hair, bad clothing; all the traits of me and my friends. That gives me hope, but the music industry may be slower to change. Last year the choice on American Idol was either the fat guy or the nerd. America chose the fat guy and then bought more records from the nerd. And notice how Kimberly Lock evolved throughout the season, changing the public perception from a brat in ponytails to a sophisticated, intelligent and nice person with a nice voice. But even she stated that the judges wanted Reuben to win because he was the most marketable of the three. Im just glad Kimberly has finally made it. While people argue whether Reuben or Clay has the best voice, I prefer to listen to Kimberly. If Reuben or Clay had started out in the Beatles the record company would have replaced them with someone that looks like Ringo.

 

Of this years group I dont hold much hope. La Toya does not have much energy. Fantasias voice irritates me after a while and I am tired of hearing every song end with yea, yea, yea, yea. Diana needs a few years. She has the voice but her talent is not yet developed. Jasmine might make a good singer in a cover band. I thought George had a better voice than any male from any year, but I got dizzy watching him bounce up and down all of the time. If Jennifer connects with the right people she has the best chance for a long term pop career. I would pay $100 for good seats to a Broadway show with La Toya and Clay. Jennifer Hudson, Kimberly Lock, Kelly Clarkson and maybe George Huff are the only singers over the three years that I would consider purchasing a CD from.

 

Robert

[doc taz]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

Generally speaking any time you go down a road, talking about a group or race of people by saying things like, "They . . . " you're coming close to possibily making a racist statement. "They are in control of money" Or they head up the major financial institutions around the world" or "They can all dance really well" or "they can't drive". Any time you lump people together and generalize about them you're entering a lie into the equation because it's simply not true. People are not groups, they are individuals. You can say there are a lot of blacks playing in the NBA but you can't say all blacks play basketball. The statement "Blacks play basketball" is exactly the same thing. "Whites are racist". You can't generalize like that about people. It's called racism.

 

So Taz I have no idea whether your father was racist or not because I haven't heard specifically what he said, but I can imagine your brothers reacting because what it sounds like you were beginning to say was a standard generalization about jewish people.

You have a valid point. However, if you were in the same room as him, you would clearly understand that he wasn't being racist about it AT ALL. That's all I have to say. Take it or leave it alone. No wonder I was ticked off at my brothers' quick response. That's the problem I have, people being too quick to judge others.

 

If I could describe exactly how my dad acts towards folks everyday, I'm sure you'd understand. I mean, people come up to him for advice everyday where he works. And he's generally well liked. I don't say that on his behalf, either.

[george costanza]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

...It was explaining why the idea that Elvis (and the like) brought the races together is a one sided point of view and why it's a fallacious one. I've never heard anyone but yourself express this poiint of view.

Again, check Professor Reed's book Mumbo Jumbo it will give you a new perspective.

[henryrobinett]

Taz - I'm certainly not saying anything disparaging about your father. I believe everything you say about him. I'm sure he's a great, great guy.

[Duddits]

Actually, we have no idea whether Taz's father is a great guy or a racist scoundrel. All we know for sure, and what this thread demonstrates unequivocally, is that the internet is not yet a perfect medium for communication.

 

An interesting debate though -- whether the Elvises, Boltons, and Eminems of the world are good or bad for race relations. Maybe they're both good and bad.

 

I've been honing up on Einstien's Special Theory of Relativity lately, and I think I'm finally starting to understand how time and motion are relative rather than absolute. We belive in our perception of time and motion only because we occupy a certain position in time and space (relative to everything else). But even on earth, we can slow down time by accelerating particles to great speeds. We can make perfectly good clocks tick slower by manipulating time itself. Although counter-intuitive, time is relative.

 

Same with "meaning" (as a function of communication much like time is a function of motion) -- it's relative rather than absolute. I know I may just be a cat, but to me, Henry seems more correct than George, and at first Taz's father sounded like a racist, and then he didn't. But this is no more than one cat's perspective. Absolute knowledge not only eludes everyone, but doesn't really exist. Clearly George and Henry will never agree, but from each of their perspectives, they are right. It is no different than two bodies in motion in space, each of which percieves itself as stationary, and the other in motion.

 

Bottom line: cats have too much time on their hands. Meow. scratch scratch. Lick Lick.