My IEM Revelation Has Begun :)

[TommyRude]

Revisiting the ambient element of IEMs. I would like to experience the ambient feature. I'm seeing two design features, would like to know opinions and comparisons;

 

1. IEMs that have "vents" (small openings), which allow a bit of the outside noise to leak in. Potential downsides include less optimal bass sound and general decreased sound quality.

 

2. IEMs that have ambient microphones built in, which allow you to dial in and control some of the ambient noise. Downsides = higher cost and.....?

 

I'm sure there is more to this, but any opinions on the vents v. the built in microphones is appreciated!

[eric]

Wireless is awesome if you move around at all and I have zero need for ambient stuff. I get everything I need in my IEM mix.

[J. Dan]

Wireless is awesome if you move around at all and I have zero need for ambient stuff. I get everything I need in my IEM mix.

 

This is the reason dB added the FB style like thumb emoji.....

 

[nursers]

Great responses as always. So I bought a pair of Westone AM 30s today (and also a Kronos LS 88 - it's been a big day!). Sorry to be a dumb arse but I've always been hopeless at audio routing and I'm trying to work out how I make the IEMS work.

 

I currently have two synths going into a Komplete 6 audio interface and I use an EV stage monitor. So I'm assuming that I take the feed that otherwise would have gone into the stage monitor into my IEMs (I'm happy to have a FOH feed). So I guess I need to buy a headphone preamp or the like to make that work. Otherwise because I've bought the ambient IEMs, I'm tempted to try a direct feed of only my keys and seeing if the ambient bleed is enough to hear everyone else.

[J. Dan]

Even with ambient feed, you're really going to need a dedicated mix - more so than with a regular monitor.

[nursers]

Even with ambient feed, you're really going to need a dedicated mix - more so than with a regular monitor.

 

I think you're right - what do you use to get that feed i.e. interface / preamp?

[J. Dan]

Depends on the band, which is why I don't always use them. When I used them full time, we had a splitter snake and our own monitor mixer. That's sort of the old way of doing it. Now a days, if I have access via my phone app to the FOH mixer, I control my own monitor feed from the board.

[ajstan]

I currently have two synths going into a Komplete 6 audio interface and I use an EV stage monitor. So I'm assuming that I take the feed that otherwise would have gone into the stage monitor into my IEMs (I'm happy to have a FOH feed).

Yes, but you will want a line feed from the board, not a powered feed from an amp that would drive an unpowered floor wedge. Let the sound engineer know ahead of time so the correct line can be run for you.

 

So I guess I need to buy a headphone preamp or the like to make that work.

Yes, you will need one, preferably with a 2-channel mixer so you can plug your keys from your Komplete 6 into one channel and an Aux feed that contains everyone else into the other. I just picked up Rolls PM55P that was recommended in a thread here (by Reezekeys I think). It has a built-in limiter, which you'll want to protect your hearing. I send separate feeds to FOH and the PM55P from my Key Largo, and get an Aux feed of everyone else through a line-level feed from the main board.

 

Otherwise because I've bought the ambient IEMs, I'm tempted to try a direct feed of only my keys and seeing if the ambient bleed is enough to hear everyone else.

I've found that the ambient feed can serve as a very rough backup in the event your Aux feed is unusable, but you miss a lot. You will want the feed from the main board (minus your keys, of course). For practice, I use a microphone to pick up the rest of the band as we don't run anything through the board other than vocals and my keys.

[delmar]

I don't feel like reading ten pages to find out whether this has been covered yet. But my experience with in-ears was this: everyone kept their amp but me, and as a result, no one near the front of the stage could hear me anymore, because front/side fills were rarely deployed. It really took the fun out of playing to know that my keys were being relegated even more to the sidelines. On the plus side, I monitored 4 keyboards in stereo through a line mixer, with an extra feed from the board of everyone else, and it was like the OP said - CD quality. Just more John Tesh than Alice Cooper.

[nursers]

Brilliant stuff, that's given me some great guidance. Thanks! I'm hooked on the idea of getting a Key Largo but will have to save for that one

 

I currently have two synths going into a Komplete 6 audio interface and I use an EV stage monitor. So I'm assuming that I take the feed that otherwise would have gone into the stage monitor into my IEMs (I'm happy to have a FOH feed).

Yes, but you will want a line feed from the board, not a powered feed from an amp that would drive an unpowered floor wedge. Let the sound engineer know ahead of time so the correct line can be run for you.

 

So I guess I need to buy a headphone preamp or the like to make that work.

Yes, you will need one, preferably with a 2-channel mixer so you can plug your keys from your Komplete 6 into one channel and an Aux feed that contains everyone else into the other. I just picked up Rolls PM55P that was recommended in a thread here (by Reezekeys I think). It has a built-in limiter, which you'll want to protect your hearing. I send separate feeds to FOH and the PM55P from my Key Largo, and get an Aux feed of everyone else through a line-level feed from the main board.

 

Otherwise because I've bought the ambient IEMs, I'm tempted to try a direct feed of only my keys and seeing if the ambient bleed is enough to hear everyone else.

I've found that the ambient feed can serve as a very rough backup in the event your Aux feed is unusable, but you miss a lot. You will want the feed from the main board (minus your keys, of course). For practice, I use a microphone to pick up the rest of the band as we don't run anything through the board other than vocals and my keys.

[RudyS]

I also have ordered the rolls pm55p on recommendation of Reezekeys. It will be here thursday. Im a bit sceptical because I have tried a rolls MX28 (actual 2) and it had lost of noise. I also read those complaints on the pm55p.

 

When I dont like the pm55p, I will order this Clonk

 

I thought it didnt had a limiter, so ordered the rolls. After ordening the rolls I found out the Fischer does have a limiter, but only on channels 1 and 2. All sound engineers love those Fischer Amps!

[Dave Keys]

Choosing the IEM's was relatively easy. I don't recommend vented IEM's - it's like buying a bulletproof vest with holes in it..

 

The main issues for me when choosing a system were:

- the need to control ambient noise (often not necessary as drum & Vox pick up but good to have)

- the need for a limiter (absolute madness not to have one)

- a compact easy solution that doesn't require extra wall warts, or having to remember to recharge batteries

- the ability to do my own mix

 

In the end I went for a Zoom H6. Powers off the Kronos USB socket. Limiters, interchangeable ambient mics.

 

 

 

 

 

[deetee]

Choosing the IEM's was relatively easy. I don't recommend vented IEM's - it's like buying a bulletproof vest with holes in it..

 

The main issues for me when choosing a system were:

- the need to control ambient noise (often not necessary as drum & Vox pick up but good to have)

- the need for a limiter (absolute madness not to have one)

- a compact easy solution that doesn't require extra wall warts, or having to remember to recharge batteries

- the ability to do my own mix

 

In the end I went for a Zoom H6. Powers off the Kronos USB socket. Limiters, interchangeable ambient mics.

 

This is a really interesting setup. What sort of gigs are you using it on (size, lineup, noise/volume etc)?

 

[Dave Keys]

 

This is a really interesting setup. What sort of gigs are you using it on (size, lineup, noise/volume etc)?

 

Mostly 5-8 piece soul and funk bands (pretty loud!), plus a potential touring band later this year. One band I play for has the whole digital mixer with personal monitor mixes on the iPhone thing - for that I just plug the mix into the zoom - nice and easy.

The touring band I would have this taken care of, but the zoom would give a 2nd stage limiter and still allow for other options.

 

With other bands the mix is more crude as often the mixer doesn't have enough aux outs to give me a personal mix. That's where the ambient mics can come in handy. I'm talking weddings and functions of perhaps a couple of hundred people.

 

Drums you can usually hear anyway and I'm usually right next to the bass player.

 

I just want to be able to a) hear myself, b) hear the band, and more importantly, c) not go deaf!

 

 

 

 

[deetee]

Sounds like a really nice simple solution! Just wish it had midi ports so that I could use it to replace my audio interface on stage.

[TommyRude]

I'm in charge of the FOH mix.

Zombie alert, thanks for your indulgence! So I think Chuck is on to something here. The scenario would be smaller gigs where you dont have a dedicated FOH soundman, but you still want to achieve high quality sound for yourself AND the audience. Equipment needed: 1) IEMs, 2) Zoom H6 (or equiv), 3) DSLR + tripod. This assumes you already have a mixer, i.e. an X-Air or equiv. Hook up the IEMs, connect the Zoom to the DSLR set it up in the audience*** and connect the Zoom to the mixer.

 

Im thinking a possible 5-bagger here. Tell me if Im off track.

 

Win #1: No more heavy monitors. Save your back. Choose the IEMs you want.

 

Win #2: Hear your own mix, dialed in as you like. Not always the case with heavy monitors / wedges.

 

Win #3: Control the FOH from the stage much more effectively. Using the control over the mixer (via iPad or iPhone, etc), toggle from your own mix to the Zoom channel for FOH control. Using the Zoom mic/channel, through your IEMs, you are now hearing what the audience is hearing. This is somewhat akin to what Chuck is saying about controlling the FOH but youre able to hear everything thats coming off the stage, whether its micd or not. And now you can raise/lower levels as needed, from the stage with some confidence because you have the audience mic from the Zoom.

 

Win #4: Record the performance with the Zoom. Not only are you getting the benefit from the audience mic to control the FOH, but you get a quality recording.

 

Win #5: Get a quality video of the performance, synched to the quality sound from the Zoom.

 

This is all theory, but Im speculating this could be done, and might actually work, hopefully without too much agita.

 

***The trick would be having the camera & Zoom out in the audience, hoping it doesnt get knocked over or damaged or stolen, and having to run cables from the Zoom to the mixer, and hoping no one trips over them.

[nursers]

Choosing the IEM's was relatively easy. I don't recommend vented IEM's - it's like buying a bulletproof vest with holes in it..

 

After playing two gigs with my Westone AM30s I'm actually thinking of selling them. For me they've been a disaster. From what I can work out, our on-stage volume levels are so high that I can't get enough volume through my in-ears without them distorting. I'm going to double check it's not a seal issue in addition to the ambient component but they just aren't working for me

[CountFosco]

For my loud band, I got the Westone UM pro 30 (not ambient port version) for the same reason. I get (just) enough ambient bass and drums to follow along, but you really need to take a monitor feed with instruments like guitar and vocals.

[3rdAct]

After playing two gigs with my Westone AM30s I'm actually thinking of selling them. For me they've been a disaster. From what I can work out, our on-stage volume levels are so high that I can't get enough volume through my in-ears without them distorting. I'm going to double check it's not a seal issue in addition to the ambient component but they just aren't working for me

I recently had a very similar experience. My idea was to use IEMs with ambient ports for practice, with the dual benefit of hearing my keyboards well and reducing the high volume of the band entering my ears. (It's gonna be great, I tell you!)

 

I bought the less expensive Westone AM10s to try it out. I don't play much low register, given the band setting, so thought the single driver might be suitable. And at home it did sound reasonably good.

 

But at practice, it was a disaster. Funny thing, though, I'm not sure how to describe why it was so bad. Somehow both the keyboard through the IEM speakers and the band through the ports sounded heavily distorted. I don't quite understand why. Wish it would work though.

[nursers]

After playing two gigs with my Westone AM30s I'm actually thinking of selling them. For me they've been a disaster. From what I can work out, our on-stage volume levels are so high that I can't get enough volume through my in-ears without them distorting. I'm going to double check it's not a seal issue in addition to the ambient component but they just aren't working for me

I recently had a very similar experience. My idea was to use IEMs with ambient ports for practice, with the dual benefit of hearing my keyboards well and reducing the high volume of the band entering my ears. (It's gonna be great, I tell you!)

 

I bought the less expensive Westone AM10s to try it out. I don't play much low register, given the band setting, so thought the single driver might be suitable. And at home it did sound reasonably good.

 

But at practice, it was a disaster. Funny thing, though, I'm not sure how to describe why it was so bad. Somehow both the keyboard through the IEM speakers and the band through the ports sounded heavily distorted. I don't quite understand why. Wish it would work though.

 

I'm hearing you. On the distortion you mentioned, am getting the same thing plus some sounds just don't sound like they should. Example: patch is a piano sound - out of FOH it sounds ok but to me through IEMs it sounds like an out of tune honky tonk piano. I'm assuming all the other noise is somehow changing my perception of the sound.

 

[Reezekeys]

Are those Westones low-impedance? I don't know what the output of a typical headphone amp is, but I think they may clip more easily with low-impedance ears. The ears' efficiency also enter into it.

[3rdAct]

After playing two gigs with my Westone AM30s I'm actually thinking of selling them. For me they've been a disaster. From what I can work out, our on-stage volume levels are so high that I can't get enough volume through my in-ears without them distorting. I'm going to double check it's not a seal issue in addition to the ambient component but they just aren't working for me

I recently had a very similar experience. My idea was to use IEMs with ambient ports for practice, with the dual benefit of hearing my keyboards well and reducing the high volume of the band entering my ears. (It's gonna be great, I tell you!)

 

I bought the less expensive Westone AM10s to try it out. I don't play much low register, given the band setting, so thought the single driver might be suitable. And at home it did sound reasonably good.

 

But at practice, it was a disaster. Funny thing, though, I'm not sure how to describe why it was so bad. Somehow both the keyboard through the IEM speakers and the band through the ports sounded heavily distorted. I don't quite understand why. Wish it would work though.

 

I'm hearing you. On the distortion you mentioned, am getting the same thing plus some sounds just don't sound like they should. Example: patch is a piano sound - out of FOH it sounds ok but to me through IEMs it sounds like an out of tune honky tonk piano. I'm assuming all the other noise is somehow changing my perception of the sound.

Right - and if the ambient IEMs are not good for these applications (assuming I'm not doing something incorrectly), I'm not really sure what role they play. :idk

[3rdAct]

Are those Westones low-impedance? I don't know what the output of a typical headphone amp is, but I think they may clip more easily with low-impedance ears. The ears' efficiency also enter into it.

The box for the AM Pro 10s give the impedance as 25 ohms.

[Reezekeys]

That's kinda low impedance, though I think there are some that are lower.

 

From this link: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/low-impedance-high-impedance-iem-which-one-is-harder-to-drive.482942/page-2

 

"Most people get this wrong. Amplifiers (including small ones in portable devices) have no problem providing the required voltage. Their limitation is current. If your amplifier isn't capable of providing enough current, the voltage sags, compromising the sound. Because this happens preferentially at certain frequencies, this affects your frequency response. Typically, but not always, it craps out first in the bass.

 

So the best answer is, low-impedance headphones are harder to drive.

 

For high-impedance headphones (those that are 300-600 ohms), you need to look at sensitivity; impedance is irrelevant. If the sensitivity is high enough, it will play loud enough, and that's all you need to worry about. High-sensitivity, high-impedance headphones are very easy to drive."

[cphollis]

After playing two gigs with my Westone AM30s I'm actually thinking of selling them. For me they've been a disaster. From what I can work out, our on-stage volume levels are so high that I can't get enough volume through my in-ears without them distorting. I'm going to double check it's not a seal issue in addition to the ambient component but they just aren't working for me

I recently had a very similar experience. My idea was to use IEMs with ambient ports for practice, with the dual benefit of hearing my keyboards well and reducing the high volume of the band entering my ears. (It's gonna be great, I tell you!)

 

I bought the less expensive Westone AM10s to try it out. I don't play much low register, given the band setting, so thought the single driver might be suitable. And at home it did sound reasonably good.

 

But at practice, it was a disaster. Funny thing, though, I'm not sure how to describe why it was so bad. Somehow both the keyboard through the IEM speakers and the band through the ports sounded heavily distorted. I don't quite understand why. Wish it would work though.

 

Huh. I wonder what's going on? Not normal.

 

All I can think of is either (a) the signal is distorted by the time it reaches your IEMs (check gain staging), or (b) your band is playing WAY loud.

[3rdAct]

That's kinda low impedance, though I think there are some that are lower.

 

From this link: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/low-impedance-high-impedance-iem-which-one-is-harder-to-drive.482942/page-2

 

"Most people get this wrong. Amplifiers (including small ones in portable devices) have no problem providing the required voltage. Their limitation is current. If your amplifier isn't capable of providing enough current, the voltage sags, compromising the sound. Because this happens preferentially at certain frequencies, this affects your frequency response. Typically, but not always, it craps out first in the bass.

 

So the best answer is, low-impedance headphones are harder to drive.

 

For high-impedance headphones (those that are 300-600 ohms), you need to look at sensitivity; impedance is irrelevant. If the sensitivity is high enough, it will play loud enough, and that's all you need to worry about. High-sensitivity, high-impedance headphones are very easy to drive."

Thanks Reezekeys, very informative, and perhaps trying to drive them too hard might be the problem.

 

cphollis, I'm pretty sure that this is the ultimate problem...

Huh. I wonder what's going on? Not normal.

 

All I can think of is either (a) the signal is distorted by the time it reaches your IEMs (check gain staging), or (b) your band is playing WAY loud.

[ajstan]

Choosing the IEM's was relatively easy. I don't recommend vented IEM's - it's like buying a bulletproof vest with holes in it..

 

After playing two gigs with my Westone AM30s I'm actually thinking of selling them. For me they've been a disaster. From what I can work out, our on-stage volume levels are so high that I can't get enough volume through my in-ears without them distorting. I'm going to double check it's not a seal issue in addition to the ambient component but they just aren't working for me

My guess is that its a seal issue. I set up between the drummer and the guitar cabinets and even on small stages, my volume level is comfortable and I am able to hear my keyboards without distortion or turning up too loud.

 

On a side note, the distortion may be coming from a line level feed going into mic level input on a headphone preamp.

 

If you have a good seal, you should hear both low-end and high-end of your keyboards. Test things out at home before rehearsal or a gig so you know what a good seal feels like and sounds like. Try a wider earpiece. I thought I had a good seal with the black ringed silicone tips, but I really needed to use the orange-ringed silicone tips.

[nursers]

ajstan you may have nailed it, plus a huge thanks to the other great suggestions. My signal chain is as follows:

 

FOH feed into line input of my Mackie mixer. Keys only feed from Key Largo monitor output into line input of my Mackie also.

 

I run my in-ears by connecting them to the headphone output of that same Mackie mixer. On the impedance issue the AM Pro 30's are 59 ohms. So now unsure what I should do to fix this? Seriously, this forum rocks.

[ajstan]

@nursers - glad to be of help. Here are a few questions to eliminate variables to figure out where the problem is:

 

1. Do the IEMs sound OK if you plug them directly into the headphone jack of your keyboards? If not, try them out on a different device or your phone. Work on getting a better seal with the ear tips.

 

2. Do you use a 1/4 adapter on the IEMs? If so, try a different adapter. Maybe thats the problem.

 

3. If youre getting a good sound with the direct connection, make sure youre gain staged correctly with the Key Largo and whats going into your Mackie. What model of Mackie mixer are you using so we can check out the manual? Do the keys sound ok on their own without the FOH feed?

[Moonglow]

Just played my first gig with the AM Pro 30s last night. They have the passive ambience feature. We took some time to properly construct the gain staging, set up the compressor/limiter, and the relative balance among keys, vocals, guitar, bass, drums, etc. I have them about 90% there. Ive used IEMs before, and overall, Ive found the main adjustment is getting used to a smaller sound.