RIP Cakewalk

[SeaGtGruff]

Studio One is a great DAW, and about the only thing it's missing is the ability to use SysEx messages-- not absolutely essential, but very desirable in my opinion. The free version-- Studio One Prime-- can be downloaded and installed by anyone, by which I mean it doesn't require purchasing some audio/MIDI equipment that comes with a license for Studio One Prime bundled the way some other supposedly "free" DAWs do (I'm looking at you, Cubase AI/LE and Live Lite!). Studio One Prime is definitely a lite version, and you should be able to try the ultimate Studio One version as a free trial, but the nice thing about Studio One Prime is that you can use it forever for free. Unfortunately, it doesn't support third-party plugins.

 

By the way, if you do decide to use Studio One and really need SysEx, you can add it (after a fashion) by using the free MIDI effects plugin from Cockos.

 

Another totally free DAW, which is not a lite version but simply an older version, is Tracktion T6. The version after that-- Tracktion T7-- comes bundled with certain audio/MIDI equipment (from Behringer, I believe). The newest version-- Waveform-- is available at a discount if you're upgrading from T7. Tracktion T6 supports both SysEx and third-party plugins, making it a great free alternative to Studio One Prime.

[Aidan]

It would be hard to think of an MI company whose reputation is so shot these days as Gibson. Not only have we had the wood imports bust, the company has killed off two relatively successful DAWs and the quality control on its most famous products seems sh*t too.

 

A guitarist friend of mine recently spent a good 2.5k on a ES 335 and wondered why he could never get the damn thing in tune with itself. He took it to a local luthier, who did some measurements and found that the fret installation was out by several millimetres all the way up the fretboard.

 

After a massive three-way battle between my friend, the retailer and Gibson, the latter eventually agreed to take the guitar back and give him a new one. The replacement duly arrived with exactly the same QC problem. My friend a pro guitarist and teacher is currently trying to get a refund. He has vowed never to buy as much as a plectrum from Gibson again.

[Mark Schmieder]

I have StudioOne and have never gotten it to adapt to my traditional "real world" (i.e. pre-digital) workflow of committing-as-I-go and knowing what I want ahead of time -- though it isn't even close to being the 180 degrees extreme that Ableton Live is in that regard.

 

The latest Cubase updates finally play well on macOS, in my experience, after a long period of it being quite a challenge. I haven't spent on 9.5 yet, but do find a lot of Cubase-only features of interest, and a much-improved LAF and workflow from before.

 

Nevertheless, Cubase still sort of acts like a Windows app wherever it runs, with an ASIO and pseudo-ASIO bias that only lately seems to be diminishing a bit.

 

It's relatively cheap to own several DAW's using competitor cross-grade offers and the like, and I use StudioOne as my quarantine for new purchases -- especially as it isn't the most reliable on the Mac regarding plug-in validation and crashes.

 

Having used DP, Live, StudioOne, Cubase, and Logic for years on various Macs, I can unequivocally say that DP is BY FAR the most stable on THAT platform -- ESPECIALLY regarding the rarity of a VI or plug-in failing or crashing.

 

Ironically, Logic is the LEAST stable, even though Apple invented the AU format! It's more often the VST's that fail in my other DAW's (aside from DP, which supports VST's as well as AU's). Again, ironically, I get more strange startup crashes (with difficult bootstrapping) for VST problems in Cubase (who invented the format) than the other DAW's!

 

Cubase and StudioOne both have some interesting and highly advanced drum editing features that go a bit beyond those in DP or Logic, but as I don't roll that way and instead use human-played patterns as a starting point (after years of doing grid-based editing), I don't care as much as I used to about the drum editor block of a DAW as I rarely use that feature anymore.

 

For sample-accurate editing, I am pretty sure DP is at the top. Cubase might be at a similar level now. I wouldn't use ANY of these DAW's for mastering though, as I prefer a different environment and workflow for that task. StudioOne's mastering facility annoyed me because it seems to be fully coupled with its mixing facility (I did spend a few hours on this, but am no expert).

 

All of these DAW's have MIDI editing features that the others don't, and all by now are quite good at that overall. Logic's is illogical (hence the product name I suppose), but can really be a life-saver if I track something on a keyboard and need to convert Note On velocities to MIDI CC11 (or equivalent).

 

As someone with visual challenges, I find DP's skins to be a life-saver as well. I don't do well with dark, or low-contrast. But I don't base product decisions on that sort of thing.

 

The differences between DAW's diminishes over time. There are still some areas though where one DAW or another is way ahead of the others. For instance, notation in DP remains in a class of its own -- not surprising, as MOTU once made (in pre-OS X days) a wonderful standalone notation app called Mosaic.

 

StudioOne now owns Notion, and Cubase has started Dorico, so there will probably soon be a more level playing field on that score (no pun intended). In fact, I've already noticed huge improvements in notation in Cubase starting with v9.

 

The main decisions to make with new DAW adoption now are more about overall workflow vs. specific features or even platform. Pretty much, a DAW is either oriented towards loop-based production (e.g. Ableton Live) and not so much towards multiple simultaneous audio tracks, or is in some senses like a multi-track audio recorder of yore.

 

The differences get down more to how things integrate within the workflow. For instance, whether there's one window that does-it-all, or dedicated windows for mixing vs. sequence editing etc. I prefer the latter, and especially when there is carefully selected redundancy in each window (as in DP) to minimize the need for frequent tab-shifting or window-switching.

 

How one inserts and works with VI's can be quite different as well. I find it instructive to compare the README documents for libraries and VST's and to see how consistent the pattern is for how long the instructions are for each DAW. It is never a surprise to me that DP's instructions are the shortest. I no longer remember whose are the longest. Probably Cubase or Logic.

 

Fortunately, every DAW on the market has gotten easier to use over time. This is not a guarantee -- there are other application domains (Adobe apps come to mind) where the opposite is the case.

 

I think most DAW's can now be downloaded in trial mode as well, which should help, but probably for now Sonar users just need to have a backup plan for when/if Sonar fails vs. going into a panic.

[GRollins]

Cakewalk did something stupid--I forget the details, this was a year or two ago. I emailed. They responded with a very brusque email saying that they didn't support my version any more. Yes, it had been superseded, but wasn't all that far out of date, but...I dunno...it wasn't what they said, it was the way they said it.

 

I dropped Cakewalk like a hot potato.

 

Maybe it was the right thing to do.

 

Grey

[Mark Schmieder]

I didn't mention Tracktion because it is in transition so it's a bit early to tell where it is headed after so many changes in ownership and branding and purpose.

 

It is a nice design (at least the previous version was; I haven't made up my mind about its replacement product yet, called Waveform, as mentioned above).

 

Not sure it's advisable for someone to switch from one dead product to another. :-) So I'd recommend making that decision based on Waveform, rather than even looking at Tracktion at this point.

[Mark Schmieder]

FWIW there was a delayed response when I on two occasions had major issues with Rapture Pro not authorizing, but Cakewalk was VERY helpful and supportive both times, and saw through to the end of the problem actually being resolved vs. cavalierly brushing me off with a rec and no follow-up.

[The Real MC]

Gibson: the roach motel of high technology products.

[burningbusch]

For sample-accurate editing, I am pretty sure DP is at the top. Cubase might be at a similar level now. I wouldn't use ANY of these DAW's for mastering though, as I prefer a different environment and workflow for that task. StudioOne's mastering facility annoyed me because it seems to be fully coupled with its mixing facility (I did spend a few hours on this, but am no expert).

 

You can use Studio One's mastering (Project) linked to any of your songs (mixes) or you can simply import mixed WAVs. It's really quite slick, as often the best way to correct issue is to go back to the mix. With S1 you're not required to constantly mixdown/bounce. OTOH, if you want to use only mixed/bounced files, that's fine. Really, though not as deep as something like Wavelab for mastering, it is certainly good enough for most folks and a wonderful and well executed addition to a DAW. Your final output can be CD, DDP Image or digital (WAV/MP3). Definitely a plus to have mixing & mastering all in one package, IMO.

 

Busch.

[Doc Tonewheel]

This totally sucks! I started with Opcode Stdio Vision, then moved to ProAudio and stayed with Cakewalk all the way up to Sonar now. I seem to be doomed when it comes to DAWs.

[UnderGroundGr]

My first DAW was Sonar Pro Audio 9 back in 1998. I had bought Sonar 2 and 3 Producer edition and ten years ago i switched to Mac OS. If Sonar was run to mac i had using it. It did not and i switched to logic because digital performer was not work for me. Sonar had very similar workflow with logic.

Very sad news...

[Mark Schmieder]

Busch, I do disagree very strongly on getting trapped into a back-and-forth on mix-vs.-master, but I can see how for some that workflow might work. For me, it spells death for saleable mixes/masters, and though I have a day job I do actually do this at a commercial vs. hobby level when I do make time for it -- but this year I have focused mostly on composing, arranging, recording, practicing, and gigging.

 

Thanks for the hints on how to use StudioOne for Mastering without having to have a StuudioOne-resident Mix Project available. I don't like coupling; it reminds me of when Yamaha switched vendors and approaches to their software editors: the SoundTower editors were always 100% live, which is quite risky for inadvertently making permanent changes to the copies of your patches that are stored in the actual keyboard vs. on the computer.

 

I consider that to be a pretty good analogy of one of many reasons that I don't want even the tiniest connection between my mixing and mastering environments or projects.

 

Given that many people work differently in this regard, I can also see how this tight integration may be a very strong selling point for StudioOne for many out there.

 

Cubase is starting to sort of go for the same thing, out of competitive necessity, but Steinberg will likely always "hold back" a bit so that people have an incentive to buy WaveLab (uber-expensive -- especially for those of us who already spent $600 for the defunct BIAS Peak Pro, not to count the upgrade costs over the years).

[elsongs]

Been a Cakewalk user since Twelve Tone Systems' Cakewalk Professional 3.01 in 1995. Am using Sonar Platinum today. Just want to leave this here to sum up my thoughts:

 

http://www.jugi3.ch/homepage/top_music/rock_classics/burning_guitar_01.jpg

[Rod S]

Great program, I'm shocked. Started in 1999 when my dad bought me Cakewalk Home Studio which was my first introduction to a DAW (Kudos to my dad who is an acoustic guitar player and knew exactly what to get). Switched to Logic last year.

 

Music is a hobby for me, I really feel for the folks that depend on these platforms for their jobs, and for the cakewalk folks who may be looking for a new gig soon...

 

I feel I'm still making the transition to Logic, and I could work faster on SONAR on some things. As I still have a win laptop I was considering upgrading my SONAR version.

[joegerardi]

The versions you own won't stop working the day they finally stop development. Keep using it.

 

Are we that upgrade hungry that we can't use a discontinued piece of software?

 

I will- I've been using Sonar about 5 years now, and it still works fine.

 

..Joe

[Markay]

Then it works until the next OS upgrade breaks it.

 

I guess this means the Z3TA MacOS compatabilty stops at Sierra.

[johnchop]

I guess this means the Z3TA MacOS compatabilty stops at Sierra.

 

Ew... meaning it doesn't work on High Sierra?

 

 

[Sam Mullins]

The versions you own won't stop working the day they finally stop development. Keep using it.

 

Are we that upgrade hungry that we can't use a discontinued piece of software?

 

I will- I've been using Sonar about 5 years now, and it still works fine.

 

..Joe

 

All true..I just switched to a "new" laptop (3 years old vs my previous 7 year old one) and Win10. It should work fine for the expected lifetime of that laptop. I'm just more pissed about paying for the lifetime updates.

[mate stubb]

Ladies and Gentlemen: I give you Henry Juszkiewicz.

 

http://images.gibson.com/Lifestyle/English/aaFeaturesImages2010/Henry-J.jpg

 

He would love to hear from you about what products you would like Gibson to undertake, and has set up a special forum where you can interact with him. It's gonna be huge!

 

http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/4henry-gibson-0714.aspx

 

And here's the direct link:

http://4henry.gibson.com/

 

Oh, wait..... :idk

[Markyboard]

Personally I find this business practice abhorable even though I'm not a Cakewake user. I got "screwed" on Vision and then Emagic Logic so I'm well familiar with the suckitude involved here.

 

But what I find interesting is that no one is sticking up for Gibson saying this is all perfectly legal; that they're just doing what they feel best serves their business and overall customer base (consumer type included). No different(?) then buying up a software company that was multi platform and now making it single platform to drive up hardware sales. Or like certain other businesses that legally duplicate synth designs with expired patents and aggressively pursue wiping out the competition - again all perfectly legal.

 

What is the difference?

 

 

[mate stubb]

What is the difference?

 

 

The man pictured above. He has earned the enmity of every one who works for him. He has taken a once proud company, chased away all their skilled artisans, and killed the quality of his iconic product. He has taken the company to the brink of insolvency. He does not have the business acumen to grow his company thru great products, competitively priced, and feels (like so many other misguided and clueless so called CEOs) that the only way to grow his company is to swallow up others for a short term illusion of growth, only to discard them shortly after. He sacrifices adorable kitties during the full moon. OK, maybe not that last one.

[Rod S]

What is the difference?

 

Do business practices have to be illegal to be unethical?

 

Several practices in the financial industry are not illegal, but have crossed the ethical line pretty far - IMHO.

 

To define what business practices are "correct", or "just", or whatever adjective is being used these days, is tough.

 

For equipment, spare parts need to be available for a minimum of 10 years after a product is discontinued. But how do you define this for software? As someone mentioned, a new OS update can kill the product, and we're out luck.

 

I think objective and clear criticism of a company's action, whether it is unjust or unethical (but no illegal), helps promote the debate and guarantee that business practices are questioned and improved.

[Mark Schmieder]

I'm interested to hear follow-up on whether Z3ta+ breaks on High Sierra as I only upgraded to Sierra a few months ago but have some Z3ta+ dependent projects that might need re-tracking if the arrangement changes at some point, which might be after I go to High Sierra (I currently expect to do that around March 2018).

[ElmerJFudd]

Gibson... anyone remember Baldwin branded guitars? wtf

 

Here's hoping their other iconic brands can avoid the Cakewalk fate...

 

Cerwin-Vega

Epiphone

Kramer

KRK Systems

Onkyo

Slingerland

Steinberger

TASCAM

TEAC Corp.

 

But especially Baldwin pianos.

 

 

[EscapeRocks]

I'm interested to hear follow-up on whether Z3ta+ breaks on High Sierra as I only upgraded to Sierra a few months ago but have some Z3ta+ dependent projects that might need re-tracking if the arrangement changes at some point, which might be after I go to High Sierra (I currently expect to do that around March 2018).

 

Mark, last thing I heard about that from Cakewalk is Sierra was the latest they said was compatible (10.12)

 

I checked Sweetwater's awesome High Sierra compatibility chart, and Cakewalk and related products from the company aren't even on the list of those being tracked.

 

I won't be upgrading to High Sierra until all the companies whose product I use give me the go ahead. A couple have, but a couple haven't.

 

I have everything running just fine under Sierra, and there's nothing in High Sierra to benefit my older (Late 2013) MBP

[marczellm]

Being able to reload an old project is an absolute must... meaning as OS's update & the software doesn't I'll have to always maintain some type of machine that can restore a project

I think the current version of SONAR will continue to work on Windows 10 for many years, maybe even 10.

[ksoper]

I've used Cakewalk since 1994 and have always stuck with it. When Pro Tools was king I steadfastly held onto Pro Audio and later, Sonar. There were, admittedly, a couple of versions of Sonar that weren't all that great, but soon enough they got their shit together and levelled the playing field. Wasn't Sonar 64 bit before Pro Tools? My memory's a little fuzzy.

 

Nevertheless, Sonar X3 Producer does what I need it to do. I can get around it quickly enough, and I didn't have to buy into the "Apple Adventure," as one Genius put it to me. (Imagine Jeff Goldblum saying, "It's an adventure!" with a broad wave of his arm)

 

I had already made up my mind to quit buying upgrades when Cakewalk went to a subscription model. I got rid of an HP printer when they went to subscription ink. I'd never get my money's worth out of it. And that's what they're counting on.

 

So, farewell, Cakewalk. X3 will live happily on my studio system until my mortal coil shuffles off to Buffalo. It was a great run.

 

(Knock knock knock..)

"Could you get the door for me? Who is it?"

"Guy says he's from Presonus."

"Oh, cool. Invite him in. I'll put on some tea."

[Markay]

Re High Sierra. Apples removal of support for the legacy Carbon framework in High Sierra, requiring a rewrite in the Cocoa framework may have been the straw that broke the camel's back at Gibson.

 

It seems like that Gibson want to focus on being a high volume manufacturer now, and a low volume product that requires a skilled team to maintain and further develop like a DAW and VI's is at odds with a consumer business model.

 

While MS has maintained better backward support for legacy software even they are dropping support for older software packages and hardware with each update.

 

The user ends up with the dilemma of choosing between sticking with the OS version that supports legacy software, but not new software, or moving on and staying up to date with OS changes and replacing legacy software.

 

It is hard to believe however that there are not other devs who would purchase or take Cakewalk off Gibson's hands.

[Jazzmammal]

I think this is just another example of how us old guys are becoming more and more irrelevant in the music biz. There are threads all around us talking about how acoustic piano sales are dropping, how guitar is no long the king of pop music, how Roland has not released a high end replacement for the Fantom, how cheaply made so many keyboards have become, terrible actions, and on and on. We all know what's replaced these instruments.

 

To me the equation is simple. If Cakewalk was making Gibson money this would not have happened.

 

Bob

[ElmerJFudd]

I wonder if it was offered to Roland and if they turned it down (maybe at the price Gibson wanted)? I dunno. But yes, software development is expensive and there's so many players in the DAW game now. And Sonar hasn't gotten into iOS or mobile device software, and Roland is playing footsie with whatever developer is working on the Roland Cloud.

 

Maybe Gibson will buy FL Studio which seems to be what the youngins are using. That and Ableton Live.

[mate stubb]

I wonder if it was offered to Roland

 

Out of the frying pan, into the fire.