SP6

[Coker]

HSS, regarding fitting an 88 in the back seat of your car, when I had a sedan I found that as long as I could get the keyboard above the armrests, there was room to fit it. I accomplished this by loading two speakers on the back seat and resting the keyboard on top of those. Might that work for you? Id hate for you to pass up the SP6 if you could accommodate its length.

[teashea]

(and I am still not clear if the Forte is plastic construction or not).

 

The Forte is all aluminum except for plastic end-caps.

 

 

Thanks for the information Jim. I appreciate it. Maybe I will rethink the Forte over the Artis 7.

[teashea]

There is a good selection of sound comparisons on Youtube between the Forte and the Artis 7. The differences, if any, are insignificant to me.

There are definitely differences. I think the sound set comparison is this:

 

* Forte and Artis7 both have the complete PC3 sample set, and all PC3 programs are available online and can be loaded into either of them.

 

* They both have the Kore64 sample set as well... however I don't know that the original full set of Kore64 programs are available online, so in terms of factory programs, you may be limited to the Kore64 programs that these boards happen to include. Kore64 sounds are primarily guitars, brass, woodwinds, and drums. (Also some synth sounds.)

 

* Both have an updated (i.e. better than triple-strike) Steinway grand, but the Forte has the biggest version, Artis7 has the smallest version (Forte SE and SP6 have something in between). Larger versions employ more sample data, so may include more velocity layers or less sample stretching or looping... I'm not sure what the detailed differences are, though they are all derived from the same master sample set.

 

* Kurzweil's other updated quality grand (Yamaha) is in the Forte at full size, in the Forte SE and SP6 at a smaller size, and not in the Artis7 at all.

 

* Forte (and also Forte SE and SP6) also include an additional new sample set, which consists of Rhodes, Wurlitzer, Clav, Harpsichord, Orchestral Percussion, Celeste, Glockenspiel, Chimes, Bells and Crotales. These are not in the Artis7. (Of course, Artis7 still has these kinds of sounds, plenty of Rhodes/Wurli/Clav for example, but only the ones from the original PC3 sample set, and not the ones that use the improved sample set of the Forte/SP6.)

 

 

 

Great information - thanks very much

[teashea]

There is a good selection of sound comparisons on Youtube between the Forte and the Artis 7. The differences, if any, are insignificant to me.

There are definitely differences. I think the sound set comparison is this:

 

* Forte and Artis7 both have the complete PC3 sample set, and all PC3 programs are available online and can be loaded into either of them.

 

* They both have the Kore64 sample set as well... however I don't know that the original full set of Kore64 programs are available online, so in terms of factory programs, you may be limited to the Kore64 programs that these boards happen to include. Kore64 sounds are primarily guitars, brass, woodwinds, and drums. (Also some synth sounds.)

 

* Both have an updated (i.e. better than triple-strike) Steinway grand, but the Forte has the biggest version, Artis7 has the smallest version (Forte SE and SP6 have something in between). Larger versions employ more sample data, so may include more velocity layers or less sample stretching or looping... I'm not sure what the detailed differences are, though they are all derived from the same master sample set.

 

* Kurzweil's other updated quality grand (Yamaha) is in the Forte at full size, in the Forte SE and SP6 at a smaller size, and not in the Artis7 at all.

 

* Forte (and also Forte SE and SP6) also include an additional new sample set, which consists of Rhodes, Wurlitzer, Clav, Harpsichord, Orchestral Percussion, Celeste, Glockenspiel, Chimes, Bells and Crotales. These are not in the Artis7. (Of course, Artis7 still has these kinds of sounds, plenty of Rhodes/Wurli/Clav for example, but only the ones from the original PC3 sample set, and not the ones that use the improved sample set of the Forte/SP6.)

 

 

A few other differences:

 

Artis7 has the TP8 semi-weighted action. It's a good little guy, tiny footprint.

 

The SP6 and Forte/Forte7 have hammer actions. (Albeit ones that are friendly for quick passages, but still hammer weighted) Forte7 and SP6 also have small footprints.

 

SP6 has reduced versions of the Steinway and Yamaha pianos, Rhodes 73, Clav, Harpsi, Celeste and Glock.

 

Forte has full versions of Steinway, Yamaha, Rhodes 73, Rhodes 77, Wurly, Clav, Harpsi, Celeste, Glock and assorted bells/chimes.

 

Both Forte and SP6 have twice the FX power of Artis/PC3 and both have superior KB3 organs.

 

 

Thank you for this information. The semi weighted keybed, as opposed to the fully weighted keybed, is actually an advantage to me. I am very interested in knowing more about the differences in the KB3 engine. That is important to me.

 

I appreciate your help.

[teashea]

Interesting, I knew the Forte had the "polyphony free" organ, but didn't know there was any difference between the SP6 organ and the Artis7/PC3 organ. Can you describe the difference(s)?

 

The Artis does not have or use the "double Leslie" KB3 programs from the PC3.

 

The SP6 does.

 

I believe the Forte has a few of them that were added in recent OS updates. (They couldn't get them working at the time of release. I have been providing all of the PC3 double Leslie KB3 programs to any Forte owners who want them, free of charge.)

 

The double Leslie versions are a good bit nicer.

 

 

What is the double Leslie program?????? I don't know what that means. Is the rest of the Kb3 section the same/ Thanks in advance. I appreciate the information.

[Legatoboy]

It means (I'm pretty sure) that separate top and low rotor speed up & slow down times are accounted for in the Sim. Roland has a 'Dual Leslie' Sim. (VR09) that means 2 Leslies but for Kurzweil in this context I believe they were talking top/bottom rotor sim.

 

It's actually implemented pretty well, there is an old PC3 YT video that lets you hear it from when it 1st came out a few years back!

[Dave Weiser]

Interesting, I knew the Forte had the "polyphony free" organ, but didn't know there was any difference between the SP6 organ and the Artis7/PC3 organ. Can you describe the difference(s)?

 

The Artis does not have or use the "double Leslie" KB3 programs from the PC3.

 

The SP6 does.

 

I believe the Forte has a few of them that were added in recent OS updates. (They couldn't get them working at the time of release. I have been providing all of the PC3 double Leslie KB3 programs to any Forte owners who want them, free of charge.)

 

The double Leslie versions are a good bit nicer.

 

 

What is the double Leslie program?????? I don't know what that means. Is the rest of the Kb3 section the same/ Thanks in advance. I appreciate the information.

 

Simply put, these are Kurzweil's "really good" KB3 programs. The name "double Leslie" just refers to the FX chain, became used by PC3 owners on forums and Facebook when it was released in an OS update years ago. (The FX chain uses a ton of FX resources but the result is a noticeably better Leslie simulation.)

 

I won't torture you (or me!) with the technical minutiae...basically they use double the amount of processing power to achieve a better sound. The relevant info is: the Artis does not have 'em, the Forte and SP6 do have them.

 

Maybe audio examples would best illustrate the difference:

http://kurzweil.com/product/sp6/audio/#Organ

http://kurzweil.com/product/artis7/audio/#Organs

 

(Note the better organs are available for Forte but they're not featured in the Forte's website demos.)

 

 

[teashea]

Interesting, I knew the Forte had the "polyphony free" organ, but didn't know there was any difference between the SP6 organ and the Artis7/PC3 organ. Can you describe the difference(s)?

 

The Artis does not have or use the "double Leslie" KB3 programs from the PC3.

 

The SP6 does.

 

I believe the Forte has a few of them that were added in recent OS updates. (They couldn't get them working at the time of release. I have been providing all of the PC3 double Leslie KB3 programs to any Forte owners who want them, free of charge.)

 

The double Leslie versions are a good bit nicer.

 

 

What is the double Leslie program?????? I don't know what that means. Is the rest of the Kb3 section the same/ Thanks in advance. I appreciate the information.

 

Simply put, these are Kurzweil's "really good" KB3 programs. The name "double Leslie" just refers to the FX chain, became used by PC3 owners on forums and Facebook when it was released in an OS update years ago. (The FX chain uses a ton of FX resources but the result is a noticeably better Leslie simulation.)

 

I won't torture you (or me!) with the technical minutiae...basically they use double the amount of processing power to achieve a better sound. The relevant info is: the Artis does not have 'em, the Forte and SP6 do have them.

 

Maybe audio examples would best illustrate the difference:

http://kurzweil.com/product/sp6/audio/#Organ

http://kurzweil.com/product/artis7/audio/#Organs

 

(Note the better organs are available for Forte but they're not featured in the Forte's website demos.)

 

 

 

Thanks so much --- This is very helpful

[AnotherScott]

Simply put, these are Kurzweil's "really good" KB3 programs. The name "double Leslie" just refers to the FX chain...(The FX chain uses a ton of FX resources but the result is a noticeably better Leslie simulation.)

 

I won't torture you (or me!) with the technical minutiae...basically they use double the amount of processing power to achieve a better sound.

Are you saying that the difference between "standard" KB3 organ sounds and "double leslie" KB3 organ sounds is more than just the difference in the leslie sim?

[Dave Weiser]

Simply put, these are Kurzweil's "really good" KB3 programs. The name "double Leslie" just refers to the FX chain...(The FX chain uses a ton of FX resources but the result is a noticeably better Leslie simulation.)

 

I won't torture you (or me!) with the technical minutiae...basically they use double the amount of processing power to achieve a better sound.

Are you saying that the difference between "standard" KB3 organ sounds and "double leslie" KB3 organ sounds is more than just the difference in the leslie sim?

 

No. Only the effect.

[teashea]

Simply put, these are Kurzweil's "really good" KB3 programs. The name "double Leslie" just refers to the FX chain...(The FX chain uses a ton of FX resources but the result is a noticeably better Leslie simulation.)

 

I won't torture you (or me!) with the technical minutiae...basically they use double the amount of processing power to achieve a better sound.

Are you saying that the difference between "standard" KB3 organ sounds and "double leslie" KB3 organ sounds is more than just the difference in the leslie sim?

 

 

David, it is great to get information from the source - you. Makes it no easier to make a decision between the Forte and Artis 7 but it will result in a more informed decision. Thanks so much ------

[teashea]

It means (I'm pretty sure) that separate top and low rotor speed up & slow down times are accounted for in the Sim. Roland has a 'Dual Leslie' Sim. (VR09) that means 2 Leslies but for Kurzweil in this context I believe they were talking top/bottom rotor sim.

 

It's actually implemented pretty well, there is an old PC3 YT video that lets you hear it from when it 1st came out a few years back!

 

 

That is a significant factor. I have some digital organs where the speed up / slow down is adjustable.

[AnotherScott]

It means (I'm pretty sure) that separate top and low rotor speed up & slow down times are accounted for in the Sim.

Even the regular (non-"double") leslie effect manipulates the top and low rotor parts of the sound separately.

[Legatoboy]

It means (I'm pretty sure) that separate top and low rotor speed up & slow down times are accounted for in the Sim.

Even the regular (non-"double") leslie effect manipulates the top and low rotor parts of the sound separately.

 

That was the one I thought they were touting .... sorry for the confusion.

[TomKittel]

Interesting, I knew the Forte had the "polyphony free" organ, but didn't know there was any difference between the SP6 organ and the Artis7/PC3 organ. Can you describe the difference(s)?

 

The Artis does not have or use the "double Leslie" KB3 programs from the PC3.

 

The SP6 does.

 

I believe the Forte has a few of them that were added in recent OS updates. (They couldn't get them working at the time of release. I have been providing all of the PC3 double Leslie KB3 programs to any Forte owners who want them, free of charge.)

 

The double Leslie versions are a good bit nicer.

 

My Artis 7 is loading the double Leslie programs of my PC3 without any problem. But I can't tell from memory if they are sounding 100 percent identically because I don't use KB3 programs much. For organ sounds I prefer the Uhl X3 or the VR09. The VR09 is a great upper board to complement the Artis 7 BTW. It makes for a great compact lightweight rig.

[Marillo]

I think HSS's points about the length/footprint of the SP6 are well made. I'm also in the 'playing tiny dives' camp where 76 notes is just the ticket.

 

The SP-6 is really tempting but its length is a sticking point.

 

And for not much more money there's the Electro 5D SW-73 which would do pretty much the same job as the SP-6

[AnotherScott]

The SP-6 is really tempting but its length is a sticking point.

 

And for not much more money there's the Electro 5D SW-73 which would do pretty much the same job as the SP-6

"Not much more money" is relative, but the NE5 HP model would be the one that would keep the hammer action, which is a some more $ again. Whether either does "pretty much the same job as the SP-6" is arguable, there are some pretty significant differences. But, maybe, depending on your needs.

 

If you are actually willing to trade off the hammer action, then for less money than the NE5D SW-73, we're right back at the Artis7, which really does do very much the same job as the SP6 (actually more functionality overall, but lacks the newest sounds).

[AnotherScott]

My Artis 7 is loading the double Leslie programs of my PC3 without any problem. But I can't tell from memory if they are sounding 100 percent identically because I don't use KB3 programs much.

I was wondering about that, because although I wasn't sure I was remembering correctly, I thought that I was indeed able to load Double Leslie PC3 programs into the Artis7, so thanks for confirming that. But as you say, just being able to load them in doesn't necessarily mean they sound the same, and since Dave is saying that the Artis7 doesn't support the Double Leslie effect, it could well be that the program loads but the full effect isn't there. It seems counter-intuitive since the Artis7 and the PC3 both have 16 fx units, so one would think that the fx capabilities of the two would be identical, but I guess there are other architectural differences that are preventing the DL effect from working on the Artis7.

[hipogrito]

Hi,

 

If the Chain can load it will sound the same in both platforms.

 

EDIT: (don't take this as an official note) We were discussing this old thing and it seems there were some issues that might require for imported double leslie chains to be slightly tweaked (depending on where they come from) in order to avoid some subtle distortion... so warning for that for Artis users, if you are trying to load a double leslie chain from a PC3 file, they will load but perhaps they had to be slightly tweaked on the PC3 first to sound flawlessly.

 

Factory Artis KB3 programs use "single" leslie chains that were actually optimized for Artis and some people like better than the double leslies some people don't... with the leslie FXs you have as many opinions as keyboardists in The Keyboard Corner ;-)

 

Regards,

Fran

[teashea]

Hi,

 

If the Chain can load it will sound the same in both platforms.

 

Regards,

Fran

 

Good to know - thanks.

[teashea]

My Artis 7 is loading the double Leslie programs of my PC3 without any problem. But I can't tell from memory if they are sounding 100 percent identically because I don't use KB3 programs much.

I was wondering about that, because although I wasn't sure I was remembering correctly, I thought that I was indeed able to load Double Leslie PC3 programs into the Artis7, so thanks for confirming that. But as you say, just being able to load them in doesn't necessarily mean they sound the same, and since Dave is saying that the Artis7 doesn't support the Double Leslie effect, it could well be that the program loads but the full effect isn't there. It seems counter-intuitive since the Artis7 and the PC3 both have 16 fx units, so one would think that the fx capabilities of the two would be identical, but I guess there are other architectural differences that are preventing the DL effect from working on the Artis7.

 

 

I listened carefully to the sound files that Kurzweil has on its website for the organ sounds for the Forte, SP6 and Artis 7. To me they are indistinguishable. After quite of bit of consideration I have decided to order an Artis 7 today.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

They would be in most ways. The LE models always sounded just as well as the PC3 on the common patches.

[AnotherScott]

If the Chain can load it will sound the same in both platforms.

Trying to reconcile (a) TomKittel's experience of being able to load a double-leslie PC3 Program into an Artis7, with (b) Dave's comment about the Artis7 not supporting the double-leslie effect chain, with © your comment that if the chain loads, it will sound the same in a PC3 or Artis7, I'm brought to this question:

 

If you load a Double Leslie program from a PC3 into an Artis7, does that *necessarily* mean that the Double Leslie effect chain loaded? Or is it possible to successfully load the program (i.e. it generates no error message, and it plays), without having loaded the actual Double Leslie effect chain as it existed on the PC3, thereby yielding a slightly different sound?

 

I'm just trying to imagine a scenario where all three premise statements can actually all be true, since they seem kind of contradictory.

[AnotherScott]

I listened carefully to the sound files that Kurzweil has on its website for the organ sounds for the Forte, SP6 and Artis 7. To me they are indistinguishable. After quite of bit of consideration I have decided to order an Artis 7 today.

They would be in most ways. The LE models always sounded just as well as the PC3 on the common patches.

Right... the only organ sounds that would sound different (based on Dave's post) are the ones that use the Double Leslie effect. Therefore many of the organ presets would sound the same among all the models. (Or you could turn off whichever Kurz rotary effects were engaged and put the output through a Ventilator, and have a still better organ sound out of any of them!) The only other difference seems to be that the Forte implementation has its own infinite polyphony which does not take away from polyphony available to other split/layered sounds, PC3 and Artis do not have that feature.

 

There's also the ergonomic functionality... i.e. SP6 appears to use knobs/menu to adjust drawbar settings, Artis7 has 9 sliders, Forte has 9 sliders plus LED indicators. If you're a big drawbar user, the "organ presets" may be less of an issue... you might just need to find one basic sound that works for you, and then tweak as you play. For the most part, I've never even listened to the factory organ presets in the traditional clonewheels I've played, it's not like a rompler where you have to stick to a limited selection of organ tones. Kurz is a little different because, while it gives you the drawbar controls, they have also included a bunch of presets specifically modeled after the organ sounds used in well known songs (mostly courtesy of Dave, I think). Korg Kronos' CX3 is the same, in that respect (I think Jack Hotop did most of those). So that might tempt even a drawbar tweaker to pay a little more attention to presets.

[hipogrito]

please see edited post above.

 

Fran

[AnotherScott]

If the Chain can load it will sound the same in both platforms.

 

EDIT: (don't take this as an official note) We were discussing this old thing and it seems there were some issues that might require for imported double leslie chains to be slightly tweaked (depending on where they come from) in order to avoid some subtle distortion... so warning for that for Artis users, if you are trying to load a double leslie chain from a PC3 file, they will load but perhaps they had to be slightly tweaked on the PC3 first to sound flawlessly.

Thanks for the clarification. If the PC3 Double Leslie effect kind of works in the Artis but may need tweaking to eliminate distortion, besides doing the tweak on a PC3, I imagine you could do the tweak with Soundtower's Artis editor?

 

Factory Artis KB3 programs use "single" leslie chains that were actually optimized for Artis

I didn't realize there were any Artis-specific tweaked programs in the Artis, I thought they were all straight PC3 programs (plus some Kore64 programs and the updated german piano), that's interesting. Were there tweaks to any of the non-KB3 programs as well?

 

and some people like better than the double leslies some people don't... with the leslie FXs you have as many opinions as keyboardists in The Keyboard Corner ;-)

Yes. IIRC, when I had my PC361, I liked the regular leslie programs better than the Double Leslie myself. I seem to remember thinking the double leslie had a bit too much pitch warble for my taste.

 

My experiences/memories about KB3 are somewhat vague because, as much as I like Kurz, on most of the gigs where I've used one, I've also had some other board I preferred for organ (a Numa or a Nord), so I haven't used KB3 all that much. Though when I have needed to use the Artis7 for organ, I was pretty satisfied with it.

[hipogrito]

Hi,

 

Not trying to sound rude at all but while that is a possibility it's a "project" to try it all and then select what parameters are the best, etc... something for the users that want to try those things to explore...

 

From our side, the single leslie chains of the Artis were tailor made to sound great on the Artis and that's why they were used in the Artis factory programs.

 

And, as we always say, backwards compatibility in our products is pretty good, we keep offering it (the SP6 can load PC3 sounds!) but it might not be 100%. There are always this or that difference between products that might require imported objects from older keyboards to be slightly tweaked manually in the newer product.

 

Regards,

Fran

 

[AnotherScott]

Not trying to sound rude at all but while that is a possibility it's a "project" to try it all and then select what parameters are the best, etc... something for the users that want to try those things to explore...

Not a problem. I was just figuring, if a PC3 program has to be tweaked to sound right on the artis (i.e. a double leslie program), doing the tweaking on a PC3 may be tricky if the Artis owner doesn't happen to also own a PC3, so being able to tweak on the Artis Editor would be a lot more sensible in that case, if it would work. If the answer is try it and see, then that's the answer. ;-) Maybe at some point someone will try it and let us know how it goes.

 

From our side, the single leslie chains of the Artis were tailor made to sound great on the Artis and that's why they were used in the Artis factory programs.

And even with 16 fx units available, if you can get a great sounding leslie using fewer of them, well, the that's that many more available for some other use. Since I'm fine with the regular leslie sound for my KB3 organ use, my question here was really more academic than it might be for others. But I had figured that any PC3 Program should sound the same on any other board that had the PC3 sample set in it, as long as it had (at least) the same number of fx units available. So even just the idea that a leslie effect was created for the Artis--tailor made to sound great specifically on the Artis--is intriguing to me, i.e. that the Artis benefitted from Artis-specific effect programming even while having (what I thought was) the same effect architecture/capability as other 16-unit models. But I guess there are other architectural differences that can make one board sound different from another. (Perhaps related to why the double leslie effect didn't automatically just work on the Artis.)

 

as we always say, backwards compatibility in our products is pretty good, we keep offering it (the SP6 can load PC3 sounds!) but it might not be 100%. There are always this or that difference between products that might require imported objects from older keyboards to be slightly tweaked manually in the newer product.

I thought that when that happened, it just meant there was a bug. ;-) Which reminds me, when I originally brought my own KB3 programs in from my old PC361 into my Artis7, the Artis7 version had a ton of leakage effect which was not on my original. Known issue by any chance?

[rockinroller]

I have two Artis 7's I use in live performing (one is usually set to a number of KB3 programs I've crafted and migrated from a previous PC3 I owned, the other performs all of the other sounds I use). I love using the Sound Editor software to tweak the various aspects of the already-modified sounds, and especially with the Leslie rotary effects that I customized and saved. On just one of the software's pages that involves itself with dialing in a Leslie rotary effect there must be 30-40 parameters that are adjustable, ranging from the slow-to-fast ramp up speed (and vice versa), the direction of the virtual microphones as they sit in both the top and bottom rotor chambers, the intensity of the rotors--the list goes on and on. Frankly I think a person who messes with these sounds and effects long enough can pretty much dial in (and save) whatever their objective is. Personally, I've gone through 3 Neo Vents as part of my quest to duplicate the sounds and effects of my old Hammonds and Leslies and I have reached a point in my creations in the Artis 7 where I need no auxiliary effects boxes to emulate a very credible sound. In all the years that I've performed and bought/sold keyboards in search of the "best" for me, I think I've hit the sweet spot in the form of these Artis 7's--at least for me.

[AnotherScott]

Yeah, the more time I spent with the Artis7, the more I liked it, though I did swap out the springs for the lighter ones that Syntaur has offered now and then. I have some ergonomic/interface quibbles... the thin (and sometimes blue) print on the sparkly silver panel can be very hard to read in some lighting conditions; the mask around the LCD makes it impossible to see the soft-button labels if it's your 2nd-tier board; it's awkward to change your RH sound on the fly when doing LH bass; the patch select buttons are too close together (and it's too easy to hit two adjacent buttons at once which, in some cases, unfortunately invokes an unintended function). Stuff like that. There was definitely room for improvement. But overall, the combination of sound, functionality, and form factor is pretty darn good. Ended up being one of my favorite boards.