Need a decent keyboard amp for small to medium venues

[Kevin Sage]

Hi all,

 

I have a Kronos X88 and have been running stereo into a DI to dedicated snake inputs and relying upon our soundman to send me a mix to my floor wedge. Problem is that this mix can easily become buried with all the vocals, guitars, etc., as I need to hear those as well (I play utility role as main keyboard player, 2nd guitar and sing backups as well). We tend to play at a dull roar on stage depending on the room and we usually use our own PA and same sound engineer for every show.

 

I'm ready to graduate to a stage amp for my keys and have my decision boiled down to two.

 

1. Motion Sound KP-500SN

or

2. Roland KC550

 

I am leaning towards the Motion Sound amp but wouldn't mind reading and learning your practical experience using either in a live setting...Pros and Cons.

 

I also know I'm going to sound like a complete NOOB with this next question but, being a guitarist first, I'm a bit lost in the keyboard gear realm. Here goes: Do I still send a stereo 1, 2 signal out of the keys to a DI, then to snake while sending a sep signal to the amp for stage monitoring? This "split" perplexes me a bit, but I really would like to be able to leave the FOH mix in the hands of our sound guy but have control over volume levels on stage via the amp.

 

Any help or insights you can provide me to clear this up a bit would be most appreciated.

 

Kevin

[Stokely]

Based on past similar threads, you may get lots of recommendations to look at powered monitors instead of an amp. I would echo those. More versatile, might sound better, possibly smaller/lighter and cheaper depending on which. I used a cheap "ebay special" 12" powered speaker for a couple years prior to switching to IEMs, and it worked fine. Whatever you pick, try it with piano, that seems to be where many amps/speakers fall apart (assuming you play some piano!)

 

I haven't heard good things about Roland keys amps, never tried a MS.

 

You have the right idea IMO about the signal. I use a submixer and no DI but the idea is the same: send the keys signal(s) to your monitor so that they are entirely separate from your FOH mix is the basic goal. Going stereo makes it a bit tougher but it can be done. Once I set my levels to FOH--we have a digital board that remembers settings so this is quickly checked and done--I don't turn that up other than things like boosting for a lead. If I can't hear I would turn up my speaker send (if possible) or the speaker volume itself...not the overall keys volume that would affect FOH.

[CEB]

The cons with the Motion Sound is you never know how long the company is going to keep its doors open. They have shut down a couple of times. Other than that the Motion Sound is a better sounding amp.

 

The Roland sounds like ass but it is dependable and the DIs are clean. It has a real boxy honky midrange tone ..... but it is easy to hear. I personally do not mind playing through a backlined Roland KC. You know what you are going to get and they always seem to work and you have the peace of mind knowing it is only for personal monitoring and that the PA is doing all the real lifting.

 

If you want an "amp" my favorite is the Traynor K4.

 

I use IEMs. If not I will use EV powered speakers. But If you want an amp get an amp. I can see the appeal of a single self contain stage amplification solution. There are days I wish I just used an amp. ..... Keyboard , X-stand, amp, done. But no I am a masochist.

[MotiDave]

Don't waste money on a KC550. I had one once, the sound is bad. you don't even realize how bad it is until you plug into a quality PPA and then you will just go "whoa, I could have heard that all this time???"

 

Get a single quality PPA speaker. you can leave it on the floor as a wedge in front of you or put it on an amp stand behind you, as you prefer. I also run an EV - ELX112P, 1000% better sound quality than the KC550. Others love many other PPAs, the OG preferred PPA of yore was QSC's K-series, they aren't my favorite but some still love them. Other MFGs have stepped up and many have moved past QSC to other brands. EV, Yamaha, etc. It depends on what you want in terms of size, weight, etc. on which is best for you. I like DXR10 for a smaller lighter package, I just got my EV for a really low price so went with it.

 

There's alot to choose from and all of the top line pro PPA models are 1000% better sounding than the KC550. The best thing KC550 has going for it is its wheels, but you can get a rolling case for a PPA.

 

there was a short thread somewhere in KC about a physics-defying blooming speaker out there. I tried it, it wasn't right for me, I felt it too thin in the low-mids but legions vociferously disagree with me so I won't say they are wrong. I play in loud bands, maybe its just me .

 

 

[Kevin Sage]

Thank you for the Traynor recommendation and for the honesty re: Roland. I'm thinking stage amp for the time being before I go the full IEM route as I want my sound to splash across the stage for the other band members who in the past have had a hard time hearing me (and prev keyboard players in this project). We play classic hard rock and a mix of more modern dance music so the combis and programs I use are vast and some tend to cut through better than others. I do use my master kb volume at times to push lead sounds a bit forward in the mix and have had relative success with this approach so I'd likely not mess with the stage mix volume on the amp once it was set.

[Kevin Sage]

Get a single quality PPA speaker. you can leave it on the floor as a wedge in front of you or put it on an amp stand behind you, as you prefer. I also run an EV - ELX112P, 1000% better sound quality than the KC550.

 

Thank you for this suggestion. I'm looking on YouTube for reviews of the EV speaker.

[Stokely]

Thank you for the Traynor recommendation and for the honesty re: Roland. I'm thinking stage amp for the time being before I go the full IEM route as I want my sound to splash across the stage for the other band members who in the past have had a hard time hearing me (and prev keyboard players in this project). We play classic hard rock and a mix of more modern dance music so the combis and programs I use are vast and some tend to cut through better than others. I do use my master kb volume at times to push lead sounds a bit forward in the mix and have had relative success with this approach so I'd likely not mess with the stage mix volume on the amp once it was set.

 

 

After I got my IEMs, I still brought my powered speaker for the other band members. It required an additional bit of routing, but as I mentioned I use a submixer so it wasn't difficult. I do run mono though, so I could get away with Left going to FOH and Right going to my powered speaker. This speaker would just point across the stage, while my IEMs got their signal from an Aux send. The monitor feed of all the other instruments I bring back into the submixer, but don't let that signal go to the main outs of my submixer. Sounds a bit convoluted, but I drew out the flow on paper, tried it out and it works great. A couple times setting it up and it was second nature. Building a "snake" with split-sleeve for the 3 cables really makes it quicker as well.

 

Finally, after a monitor upgrade, the other band members (most of whom don't use IEMs) decided to just put keys in the monitors. Again, stereo might be an issue here (at best they'd be hearing something different from FOH or you...but then this might not be a huge deal as long as they can hear you "enough"). I love not having to bring that speaker!

 

long story short, you can go to IEMs while still having stage volume, it's just a bit of extra work. IEMs are VERY Highly recommended if you can swing it in your band--there's been no other musical purchase I've made that can compare. They've literally kept me gigging. No more ringing ears and I can hear myself (and everyone else) so much better. They have really helped my singing as well since I can hear nuances now. Ok, enough preaching They are not for everyone.

[Hoochie]

Just as a word of hard won advice.

Get something light and small.

 

You won't need low end. You'll get that from the house just fine.

Small, light, loud, and clean.

You can get all of that at reasonable cost now.

 

This is all based on the premise that it is just for monitoring keys.

If your going to want vocals as a regular thing, these little boxed

have too wide of a dispersion from the treble.

The bigger boxes will have tighter throws.

You would likely want to spend a bit more on a JBL PRX 12

or equivelant. That's what it's more designed for though it is a utility box.

 

The little Yamaha DSR 8 or 10 will get you there.

We use them as lip fills. They are really loud. Yet clean.

 

I personally have the little EON 8. Weighs 20 pounds

and I've given it up in emergencies as a vocal monitor.

I know. Not a good application but someone's iem's blew.

The little thing kicks.

I've had situations during sound check that people thought the pa was on.

 

The EV equivelsnt will kick ass too. They run a little bigger in size though.

Some will say the QSC will do too. It's kind of harsh/strident to my ears when it's loud.

 

You don't want those boxes you listed.

They are big. And heavy. The KC550 has wheels for a reason.

Like someone said. If it's backlined it will do

but I've seen them not used far more even though it's available.

 

Those that are asking how many inputs does it have?

Get a little mixer. Gain matching instruments makes it a must.

Speakers that have a bunch of inputs typically give you very limited

mixing options.

The little Yamaha StagePas is the only thing I've seen that had a real mixer

as part of the package. But that's more of a solo/duo coffee house system.

 

 

John

 

Edit: Sorry wrong model on the Yamaha's

DXR 8 or 10. The DSR's are great but only

go down to a 12 and their 40+ pounds.

2" driver on the highs.

They get stupid loud for not a tour wedge.

The DXR's are not as loud but the

magic smoke they put in there

is the good kind.

 

[Sam Mullins]

I've used a KP200SN for many years and find it to be a good compromise solution: decent quality stereo sound, not overly big or heavy. I might consider upgrading to the KP500SN except they eliminated an important feature for me: the "click track" input which I use as a monitor feed, i.e. my keyboard amp is both my keys amp and my monitor (for my vocals and a mix of my duo partner's output).

 

You might want to check out this thread where Mitch Towne has positive things to say about the KP500SN:

 

Klonk

[CEB]

FYI the Traynor K4 is heavy also..... probably about 60 pounds..... So is my Kronos... and my Hammond..... It is light compare to a Mesa Boogie Lonestar. It is all relative.

 

As for powered speakers. Look at the preamp input sections of the speaker in question or just tell us what you are looking at in order to see if you need to have an additional gain stage. My powered cabinets are a pair of EV ZXA1s. These have to be used with a mixer to get any serious volume out of them. I can go through a rehearsal by plugging straight in to them if the drummer and guitarist plays with some consideration for listening to their band mates. The ZXA1s require the gain stage. Some speakers don't HAVE to have a mixer.

 

PS - BTW I got the EX ZXA1s before the ZLXs were available. Pianos sound nice through the ZXA1s but if I had to do it over again today I would save a little money and get the ZLXs. The ZLXs kick some ass.

 

PPS ZLX is what I meant

[AnotherScott]

For less money and less travel weight, you'll get better sound (especially for piano) out of an EV ZXa1 and a small mixer.

[timwat]

Kevin:

 

Another alternative is the CPS SpaceStation v3, which takes stereo inputs, throws a VERY spacious and wide image on stage, is very compact and can compete volume-wise as a stage monitor. It also saves you from having to schlep two small amps, it's only 40 pounds and it provides a summed 1/4" output of whatever you input (if FOH is only running mono and you want to easily send a summed mono out to FOH).

 

Several of us here on the board use these, myself included. Depending on the gig these days, I'll either bring only the SpaceStation or two Yamaha DXR8 powered PA speakers (similar to the other PA speaker recommendations you've already gotten). Each solution has its advantages.

 

As far as your DI question - I'm going to presume you're using a two-channel DI with typical configuration:

 

1) a 1/4" unbalanced input

2) an XLR balanced output

3) a 1/4" unbalanced thru jack

 

Wiring then becomes:

 

Your Left and Right outputs into the 1/4" unbalanced inputs on each channel of the DI (or two single-channel DIs), XLR to FOH, and connect the 1/4" unbalanced Thru jacks into the L&R inputs of your stereo amplification solution.

 

hope that helps some

 

Tim

[Barryjam]

I love the Traynor K4 for being stereo and having monitor inputs (with volume control) so you can get your monitor feed of your voice and rest of the band that only sounds on the Traynor and DOES NOT go to the main LR outputs of the amp.

 

I agree with others that the Traynor sounds great on Rhodes and Organ, but requires eq on acoustic piano.

[Sam Mullins]

I love the Traynor K4 for being stereo and having monitor inputs (with volume control) so you can get your monitor feed of your voice and rest of the band that only sounds on the Traynor and DOES NOT go to the main LR outputs of the amp.

 

 

Yeah, very useful. This is what I was referring to as the "click track" input on the Motion Sound KP200SN. I wish more amps had that feature.

 

The K4 also has a tube channel, so if you are someone (like my brother) who plays both keys and rhythm guitar, you could replace three on-stage boxes (keys amp, guitar amp, and monitor) with one. Obviously some trade-offs doing that, but it's a nice option.

[Kevin Sage]

As far as your DI question - I'm going to presume you're using a two-channel DI with typical configuration:

 

1) a 1/4" unbalanced input

2) an XLR balanced output

3) a 1/4" unbalanced thru jack

 

Wiring then becomes:

 

Your Left and Right outputs into the 1/4" unbalanced inputs on each channel of the DI (or two single-channel DIs), XLR to FOH, and connect the 1/4" unbalanced Thru jacks into the L&R inputs of your stereo amplification solution.

 

hope that helps some

 

Tim

 

This helps me immensely! That is exactly what I was wanting to understand. I'm using a Radial Pro D2 DI.

[El Lobo]

I use 2 QSC K8's (for stereo). The 8's have very wide dispersion so I aim one at me from behind and slightly away and aim the other at an angle across the stage for the band to hear. 8's are all you need. The other choice as mentioned is the Spacestation v3. I was going to get one but a friend uses a hand truck to move its 40 lbs. I'm too old to carry that much weight. I decided to stick with the QSC's

[bennyray]

ZLX 115 OR 112's are really nice for the money. Pro Audiostar will give you a deal if you ask. Good speaker for the money.

[timwat]

This helps me immensely! That is exactly what I was wanting to understand. I'm using a Radial Pro D2 DI.

 

Great! I'm glad that helped you!

 

And your Radial is a great DI. Their stuff is all aces - I use the JDI Duplex - it's been bulletproof for well over a decade, and the sound is far superior to most other brands.

[drawback]

I'll chime in and recommend what Tim said. SSV.3 with DI routing.

[whannah]

Just to add my experience to the comments, I bought a spacestation v3, but it didn't have enough power so I returned it and got a Yamaha DXR10 and I love it! Way more power and bass then I was expecting. I use it only for organ on gigs, but I've tried it on my Korg SV-1 and my Novation ultranova and it does an amazing job on all fronts.

 

So I'm totally convinced that powered monitors are the way to go these days. Unless a spacestation is enough power for you, cause they are really nice otherwise.

[Noah DC]

Get a single quality PPA speaker. you can leave it on the floor as a wedge in front of you or put it on an amp stand behind you, as you prefer. I also run an EV - ELX112P, 1000% better sound quality than the KC550.

 

 

+1

 

And the ELX112P weighs maybe thirty (?) pounds less.

[pjd]

Currently using two QSC K-8s or a single Yamaha MS100, depending upon the gig and venue. Light weight is the way to go. Too much to schlep already.

 

My old KC is now used as a boat anchor.

 

-- pj

 

[TWizzle]

I have a SpaceStation for smaller gigs. For when the volume goes way up I have the Yamaha DXR 10, used as a wedge or mounted on a pole. I love them both. No desire to try out anything else as far as amplification is concerned.

[cphollis]

Crap, another thread about keyboard amplification. For some strange reason, I think this is an incredibly important topic. So here goes.

 

I've burned through all the keyboard amps. Roland, Motion Sound, Traynor, Bose, etc. Not my thing, as I have to bring enough amplification to the bar gig to be heard.

 

Ain't no decent FOH guys in my world. Bring your own sound, or suck. That's the deal.

 

Next up: self-powered PAs. I'm a QSC fan (have a small fleet), but also appreciate what EV and Yamaha bring to the party. Small differences, all good.

 

And I went big on a pair of Fulcrum Acoustic 12acs. Nothing like bringing 4000w to a live gig, and blowing it out. Happy!!!

 

That being said, I've turned into a huge fan of the SSv3 for smaller live gigs. I own two of them now (it's complicated), but I show up, bring the small amp, and blow it out. Every time. It rocks for what I do.

 

I've got more serious firepower in the inventory, but it's the SSv3 I tend to load up 4 out of 5 times. It takes a while to appreciate what it can do, but it's worth in the investment in time.

 

My two cents.

 

-- Chuck

 

[roygBiv]

+10e^3 on teh SpaceStation

 

First keyboard amplification that I can just bring and and not worry too much about how it will sound, other than figuring out where best to put it. And the only one that gets compliments from fellow band members and audience members.

 

As someone who was primarily a guitar/bass player for the last 35 years, and have a nice (but small) collection of cool vintage guitar amps to prove it, I was truly shocked when I started playing keys in bands about 8 years ago - there had basically been NO improvement in keyboard amps since last time I was last playing keys in bands - in the early 80's!

 

 

I mean - why? Keyboards had vastly decreased in prices since then, with more and more onboard power. Why not the same for keyboard amps?

 

Also, compared to guitar players, Keyboard players are typically less afraid of digital or solid-state stuff, and less hung up on "tone mojo", all that crap that goes along with being a guitar player - why was there such a limited option for keyboard amps?

 

So I refused to buy the crap options that were out there, holding out for something better than a Roland KC***. Had to use my Fender ProReverb - fine for epiano and organ, but ultra bad for acoustic piano sounds.

 

Finally, lightweight, plastic-housing self-powered PA speakers started being more available, but even they seemed kinda "meh" to me.

 

Thus, I was thrilled to see talk of this "SpaceStation" thing on this very forum, and as soon as they were available at Sweetwater took the plunge without even hearing one.

 

Very, very happy with my purchase - the SpaceStation is the first thing I've seen for keyboard amplification that is truly innovative yet relatively lightweight.

 

Not to say the the powered PA speakers are bad, definitely better than a KC***, just really love the effect of the SpaceStation on Leslie sounds, stereo pan epiano, stereo reverb/delay, etc. Can't believe how cool this product is.

 

[MotiDave]

If he ever makes SS4 with a 10"(+) and 1000W, i'll be interested.

[Doerfler]

are you going to be using the transpose button?

[ITGITC]

 

I'm using a pair of QSC K10's rewired. After changing the polarity of the woofer, it sounds much better than it did when I purchased it. The difference is not subtle. Well worth the time as these are well-made, high-quality boxes.

 

In fact, the QSC K12 remains the most popular powered speaker that Sweetwater offers.

 

KLONK

 

Tom

 

PS Loving all the Halloween avatars this year. If you haven't seen it already, check out SNL's skit, Haunted Elevator & David S. Pumpkins.

 

 

 

[video:youtube]youtu.be/rS00xWnqwvI

 

 

[Danny Linguini]

For small to medium, I have to throw my hat at the SSv3 as well. Not going to reiterate all the reasons that have already been stated for it -- they are all right on the money. It won't give you ground-shaking bass, but there's a sub out for that if you need it.

[steve campito]

I have tried every possible keyboard amp out there, they all suck in my opinion. I have QSC 8's and 12's but wanted to scale down and bought the SpaceStation CPS and never looked back. Aspen Pittman stands behind it and if you have a question or problem you can talk to him either e-mail or on this forum. Fills every room I have thrown at it from small clubs to large venues and it is always heard around the room as well by my band mates.